Evidence for God from Science

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

I believe we are guaranteed salvation at the moment of trusting/believing in Christ John 3:16. Regardless of how we mature as a believer.

I don't think this has anything to do with the topic at hand.... here's why ... "works" in my world are the direct consequence of belief in Jesus as God. His entire ministry was for the benefit of man and our ministry is to follow that lead and that means we do all possible to help others, as He did /does for us and love the Lord above all else.

for me, it's works = a result of obeying God and not works = resulting in salvation. If you're a child of God the desire to do good things for others is paramount, bursting at the seams to be of service... that's works... an overwhelming desire to do God's will in a tangible way, [no where near as tangible a way He did for us...] but a doing, actually doing the best thing the right way for each and every one of our fellow novitiates. Whatever that "doing" actual action is called in obeying His words = works generated by the love of God for man through and by man.

Nobody can do the works you speak about until they are saved by Jesus. It all starts with salvation from Jesus then we have the power to live a Godly life as we grow in Christ but we first must be saved.It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the power and will to do the good works you speak about about,but our salvation is not based on works at all. Works are automatic once we have been saved as long as we yield to the Holy Spirit. The scripture in James you like to quote balances out the grace and works.

Nobody can do the works you speak about until they are saved by Jesus. It all starts with salvation from Jesus then we have the power to live a Godly life as we grow in Christ but we first must be saved.It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the power and will to do the good works you speak about about,but our salvation is not based on works at all. Works are automatic once we have been saved as long as we yield to the Holy Spirit. The scripture in James you like to quote balances out the grace and works.

A+ acb ... we are, in different wording, in agreement. Dude !

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

I believe we are guaranteed salvation at the moment of trusting/believing in Christ John 3:16. Regardless of how we mature as a believer.

I don't think this has anything to do with the topic at hand.... here's why ... "works" in my world are the direct consequence of belief in Jesus as God. His entire ministry was for the benefit of man and our ministry is to follow that lead and that means we do all possible to help others, as He did /does for us and love the Lord above all else.

for me, it's works = a result of obeying God and not works = resulting in salvation. If you're a child of God the desire to do good things for others is paramount, bursting at the seams to be of service... that's works... an overwhelming desire to do God's will in a tangible way, [no where near as tangible a way He did for us...] but a doing, actually doing the best thing the right way for each and every one of our fellow novitiates. Whatever that "doing" actual action is called in obeying His words = works generated by the love of God for man through and by man.

ES,

It might seem like a slight disagreement, or semantics. But it's not. I think we are saying the same thing, except for one notable difference. You say "if you're a child of God, the desire to do good things for others is paramount". I say the desire is paramount, only if one is living according to the spirit. If a child of God is not living according to the spirit, but according to the flesh, then that desire to do good works, may not be paramount. And that's not evidence for or against if one is saved(a child of God). It's simply the difference between a believer doing what he is supposed to do as a believer. Good works are not evidence to whether one is saved. Good works of a believer is evidence that one is living according to the spirit.

Do you see the difference between what you're saying, and what I'm saying?

You say "if you're a child of God, the desire to do good things for others is paramount". I say the desire is paramount, only if one is living according to the spirit.

You cannot be a child of God without guidance from the HS, without being influenced mightily by God.. This is the very definition of a child of God. Do you see now where we are so similar ?

good works are not evidence to whether one is saved. Good works of a believer is evidence that one is living according to the spirit.

for me, it's works = a result of obeying God ... (living according to the spirit) again, see how we agree ? Works are a response to obeying God, not salvation from God. The works would not be performed if the "worker" was not already saved. I don't think your saved until you recognize this, that God's commandment of love your neighbor as yourself is "worked" out in the everyday life of any who call themselves Christian. You can still be saved without works at all but the works are the proof in the putting, that putting = your best face of love forward to serve your fellow man with your best possible imitation of Christ.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

You say "if you're a child of God, the desire to do good things for others is paramount". I say the desire is paramount, only if one is living according to the spirit.

You cannot be a child of God without guidance from the HS, without being influenced mightily by God.. This is the very definition of a child of God. Do you see now where we are so similar ?

good works are not evidence to whether one is saved. Good works of a believer is evidence that one is living according to the spirit.

for me, it's works = a result of obeying God ... (living according to the spirit) again, see how we agree ? Works are a response to obeying God, not salvation from God. The works would not be performed if the "worker" was not already saved. I don't think your saved until you recognize this, that God's commandment of love your neighbor as yourself is "worked" out in the everyday life of any who call themselves Christian. You can still be saved without works at all but the works are the proof in the putting, that putting = your best face of love forward to serve your fellow man with your best possible imitation of Christ.

Yes I see you two are agreeing more than disagreeing.

However, one who has the Holy Spirit within will be under whose influence?

Is there or is there not an influence?

Rom 8:9, 1 John 1:9 indicates that there is.

True, people going thru tuff life events can stray away back to the world, however, the good shepherd comes for them and they do return to him, changed people. Then there are those who claim to have believed but never really believed and they make a mockery of Christianity by their life styles and actions. Since Matthew 7:21-23 speaks of those putting on an act, how much more will the same be said for those who claim belief but in reality live without change still living as the world does?

The Holy Spirit will change a truly saved person in remarkable and profound ways for their betterment and in turn, lifestyles will reflect that change.

It is true that we do not know the eternal state of a person as God does, however, we should not use this to tell folks not to love God and Christ in words and deeds as unnecessary due to a fear of works. After all Php 2:13 and Heb 10:24 was written with purpose.
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However, one who has the Holy Spirit within will be under whose influence?

The HS influence

Is there or is there not an influence?

Oh yes ...
Rom 8:9, 1 John 1:9 indicates that there is.

Since Matthew 7:21-23 speaks of those putting on an act, how much more will the same be said for those who claim belief but in reality live without change still living as the world does?

The Holy Spirit will change a truly saved person in remarkable and profound ways for their betterment and in turn, lifestyles will reflect that change.

and perfectly said ...

It is true that we do not know the eternal state of a person as God does, however, we should not use this to tell folks not to love God and Christ in words and deeds as unnecessary due to a fear of works. After all Php 2:13 and Heb 10:24 was written with purpose.

ES,

A lot of what we are saying, we are agreeing on. But, I want to focus on what may be disagreements, to see first, if they're disagreements, and second, if they are important theologically, or not.

RickD said:
You say "if you're a child of God, the desire to do good things for others is paramount". I say the desire is paramount, only if one is living according to the spirit.

ES said:
You cannot be a child of God without guidance from the HS, without being influenced mightily by God.. This is the very definition of a child of God. Do you see now where we are so similar ?

I agree one cannot be a child of God without guidance from the HS. The HS indwells all believers.
But I'm still seeing a distinction between what I'm saying, and you're saying. When you say that "one cannot be a child of God without being influenced mightily by God", do you mean that you believe all believers will do good works no matter what? Even if the believer doesn't cooperate with the moving work of the HS?

RickD wrote:
good works are not evidence to whether one is saved. Good works of a believer is evidence that one is living according to the spirit.

ES wrote:
for me, it's works = a result of obeying God ... (living according to the spirit) again, see how we agree ? Works are a response to obeying God, not salvation from God. The works would not be performed if the "worker" was not already saved. I don't think your saved until you recognize this, that God's commandment of love your neighbor as yourself is "worked" out in the everyday life of any who call themselves Christian. You can still be saved without works at all but the works are the proof in the putting, that putting = your best face of love forward to serve your fellow man with your best possible imitation of Christ.

Are you saying that someone isn't saved until they recognize that loving their neighbor has been worked out in their lives?

I'm saying that at the moment one trusts in Christ, one is saved. Even before one has all the other details figured out, including loving one's neighbor.

From my talks with Byblos, and other Catholics, I get a sense that in Catholicism, there's no way to know if you're saved. That basically you have to keep doing God's will throughout your life, and hope that you don't die without confessing any sins.

Or at best, hope you've done enough works as a believer, that you will be saved when you die.

RickD wrote:ES,

A lot of what we are saying, we are agreeing on. But, I want to focus on what may be disagreements, to see first, if they're disagreements, and second, if they are important theologically, or not.

RickD said:
You say "if you're a child of God, the desire to do good things for others is paramount". I say the desire is paramount, only if one is living according to the spirit.

ES said:
You cannot be a child of God without guidance from the HS, without being influenced mightily by God.. This is the very definition of a child of God. Do you see now where we are so similar ?

I agree one cannot be a child of God without guidance from the HS. The HS indwells all believers.
But I'm still seeing a distinction between what I'm saying, and you're saying. When you say that "one cannot be a child of God without being influenced mightily by God", do you mean that you believe all believers will do good works no matter what? Even if the believer doesn't cooperate with the moving work of the HS?

RickD wrote:
good works are not evidence to whether one is saved. Good works of a believer is evidence that one is living according to the spirit.

ES wrote:
for me, it's works = a result of obeying God ... (living according to the spirit) again, see how we agree ? Works are a response to obeying God, not salvation from God. The works would not be performed if the "worker" was not already saved. I don't think your saved until you recognize this, that God's commandment of love your neighbor as yourself is "worked" out in the everyday life of any who call themselves Christian. You can still be saved without works at all but the works are the proof in the putting, that putting = your best face of love forward to serve your fellow man with your best possible imitation of Christ.

Are you saying that someone isn't saved until they recognize that loving their neighbor has been worked out in their lives?

I'm saying that at the moment one trusts in Christ, one is saved. Even before one has all the other details figured out, including loving one's neighbor.

From my talks with Byblos, and other Catholics, I get a sense that in Catholicism, there's no way to know if you're saved. That basically you have to keep doing God's will throughout your life, and hope that you don't die without confessing any sins.

Or at best, hope you've done enough works as a believer, that you will be saved when you die.

I agree with you but this is one of those Protestant vs Catholic doctrines.Jesus made salvation too easy for religious people who think they need to help God out in saving them.No true Christian that has been born again and is being led by the Spirit will not desire automatically to be Christ-like and since we are still all sinners even when saved there is no way any of us could add to the salvation Jesus gave us as a gift that we do not deserve,yet have,if we will just recieve it.

first, if they're disagreements,and second, if they are important theologically.

do you mean that you believe all believers will do good works no matter what?

i believe all believers who 's beliefs align with God's do. There are certainly believers who have not or do not intend to live a life of service as God intends. They will be less inclined to a life of service or at least live less of a life on the service of men, in obeying the Will of God.

Even if the believer doesn't cooperate with the moving work of the HS?

are you a believer in God (?) if you do not cooperate ... or a believer in self ? I mean, if your not following the path God has set for you then who's path are you following ? Does any one individual's alternate path lead to heaven, Proverbs 3:6 or your Lord's ?

Ephesians 4:22-24
This person Rick, the one in Ephesians, whom we all should strive to be ... this Christian cooperates. This is the Christian God loves especially ... I know because it's the same person... one in the acting, very same as Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:17 I want the Majestic Glory feeling this way about every one of us.

Are you saying that someone isn't saved until they recognize that loving their neighbor has been worked out in their lives?

No, but they should probably put a rush order on it since it's the second of only two commandments asked by God in ruling your entire earthly life. Thank God for the Mercy of God. The Divine Mercy.

I'm saying that at the moment one trusts in Christ, one is saved. Even before one has all the other details figured out, including loving one's neighbor.

Yeah, no you're right here ... i don't go for this. More like this ... Matt. 24:13

I get a sense that in Catholicism, there's no way to know (absolutely) if you're saved. That basically you have to keep doing God's will throughout your life, (is there a problem with this?) and hope that you don't die without confessing any (mortal) sins. Matt. 7:21

Or at best, hope you've done enough works as a believer, that you will be saved when you die

You didn't hear this from Byblos or any other Catholic worth his salt. Works has nothing to do with salvation, again and truly for the last time works are the necessary outcome of doing the will of God according to the documented life of Christ.

The Catholic Church has never taught we "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can't earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).

Once you accept Christ as your Saviour, thats it, you're saved. The HS will drive you to do good works, or should but your works dont equate to salvation. If they did, we would be in trouble.
I know I'm saved. I have put my faith in Christ and that is all I have to do. The works, growing in my faith, learning is just part of the journey.
God promises that all who believe in Christ. in Him, are saved.

ES,

I responded to your last post, but got kicked off the site, and my post was deleted.

Dvarn iPhone!

I'll post later when I get a chance.

RickD wrote:
first, if they're disagreements,and second, if they are important theologically.



do you mean that you believe all believers will do good works no matter what?

ES wrote:
i believe all believers who 's beliefs align with God's do. There are certainly believers who have not or do not intend to live a life of service as God intends. They will be less inclined to a life of service or at least live less of a life on the service of men, in obeying the Will of God.

I pretty much agree with that.

RickD wrote:
Even if the believer doesn't cooperate with the moving work of the HS?

ES wrote:
are you a believer in God (?) if you do not cooperate ... or a believer in self ? I mean, if your not following the path God has set for you then who's path are you following ? Does any one individual's alternate path lead to heaven, Proverbs 3:6 or your Lord's ?

When I call someone a believer, it is referring to anyone who has trusted in Christ for salvation. In other words, a believer is someone who has everlasting life.

ES wrote:
Ephesians 4:22-24
This person Rick, the one in Ephesians, whom we all should strive to be ... this Christian cooperates. This is the Christian God loves especially ... I know because it's the same person... one in the acting, very same as Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:17 I want the Majestic Glory feeling this way about every one of us.

I agree. By the power of the HS, we should love God.

RickD wrote:
Are you saying that someone isn't saved until they recognize that loving their neighbor has been worked out in their lives?

ES wrote:
No, but they should probably put a rush order on it since it's the second of only two commandments asked by God in ruling your entire earthly life. Thank God for the Mercy of God. The Divine Mercy.

Not sure what that means. Sounds Catholic.

RickD wrote:
I'm saying that at the moment one trusts in Christ, one is saved. Even before one has all the other details figured out, including loving one's neighbor.

ES wrote:
Yeah, no you're right here ... i don't go for this. More like this ... Matt. 24:13

ES, the context of Matthew 24, is the tribulation. And the word "saved" in Matthew 24:13, means physical deliverance or the survival of those who last the tribulation.

The word "saved", is the Greek word sozo, which may refer to any kind of deliverance. The context gives no reason to think it's referring to eternal salvation, in Matthew 24.

RickD wrote:
I get a sense that in Catholicism, there's no way to know (absolutely) if you're saved. That basically you have to keep doing God's will throughout your life, (is there a problem with this?) and hope that you don't die without confessing any (mortal) sins. Matt. 7:21



Or at best, hope you've done enough works as a believer, that you will be saved when you die

You didn't hear this from Byblos or any other Catholic worth his salt. Works has nothing to do with salvation, again and truly for the last time works are the necessary outcome of doing the will of God according to the documented life of Christ.

The Catholic Church has never taught we "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can't earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).

Ok ES. We're almost there. If works are the necessary outcome of doing the will of God according to the documented life of Christ, what happens to believers who don't do God's will, and perform works which necessarily come from doing God's will?

1) They are still saved, but don't get as many eternal rewards as they would have if they followed God's will.

2) They were never saved if they don't do God's will, and the good works that necessarily follow.

3) They lose eternal life.

4) something else.

I'll be back later rick... important day ahead of me.

RickD wrote:
Are you saying that someone isn't saved until they recognize that loving their neighbor has been worked out in their lives?

ES wrote:
No, but they should probably put a rush order on it since it's the second of only two commandments asked by God in ruling your entire earthly life. Thank God for the Mercy of God. The Divine Mercy.

Not sure what that means. Sounds Catholic.

All i am saying here is if someone who is saved and still doesn't recognize that loving your neighbor is of paramount importance ... that "believer" needs to revisit the commands Jesus gave us a.s.a.p. (rush order)
Sounds Catholic. ... . The Divine Mercy ... OOOoooohhhhyeah !

ES wrote:
Yeah, no you're right here ... i don't go for this. More like this ... Matt. 24:13

Rick:
ES, the context of Matthew 24, is the tribulation. And the word "saved" in Matthew 24:13, means physical deliverance or the survival of those who last the tribulation.
The word "saved", is the Greek word sozo, which may refer to any kind of deliverance. The context gives no reason to think it's referring to eternal salvation, in Matthew 24.

Yeah, I agree with this to a large extent. That's not the best verse for direct interpretation, but there are those who concur ...

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure to the end,.... In the profession of faith in Christ, notwithstanding the violent persecutions of wicked men; and in the pure and incorrupt doctrines of the Gospel, whilst many are deceived by the false teachers that shall arise; and in holiness of life and conversation, amidst all the impurities of the age; and shall patiently bear all afflictions, to the end of his life, or to the end of sorrows, of which the above mentioned were the beginning ... and also with an everlasting salvation, which is the case of all that persevere to the end, as all true believers in Christ will.

there's also these ...
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
Jeremiah 17:7-8 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose trust is the Lord. He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.”
Romans 11:19-22 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure
1 Peter 1:5 Who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall

If works are the necessary outcome of doing the will of God according to the documented life of Christ,

you do get that a documented life of Christ = Matthew 25:31-46 and these are the works of which i speak ?

what happens to believers who don't do God's will, and perform works which necessarily come from doing God's will?

Rick, apologies... I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here ...I think I do and if so the answer is ...
4) something else.

That something else is the Sacrament of reconciliation. None of us live lives complete to the will of God. That which we do that is sinful has confession at it's side to alleviate the burden of those times when we did not live up to our professions of faith. Those professions being based wholly on love God above all else and your neighbor as yourself. Without reconciliation, we would be living under the thumb of the Law and that would result in

rick:
2) They were never saved if they don't do God's will, and the good works that necessarily follow.
3) They lose eternal life.

ps; where did this come from ?

1) They are still saved, but don't get as many eternal rewards as they would have if they followed God's will.

abelcainsbrother wrote: I did not judge you at all. We know how to be saved to get to God by reading God's word,the more we read it the more we know God's will and based on your views you are not doing it God's way.

You have no idea what is God's will. Are you God?

I will continue to put all my faith in God. God is my judge. I do not subscribe to your interpretation of God's word.

abelcainsbrother wrote: You are not saved if you go around Jesus,you cannot get to God by refusing to be saved by Jesus because there is no good work you can do to remove your sin. Yet you think you can get to God based on works,you think you can go to God without a blood sacrifice just like Cain did and God rejected it, even if you did have a blood sacrifice you have NO JEWISH TEMPLE TO SACRIFICE IT TO GOD and yet you are wrong biblically.You are not following the OT laws without a blood sacrifice.You are sinning living under the OT laws.Obeying some while breaking others and yet you think it is OK in God's eyes.

It's funny, in your interpretation I burn in Hell. In my interpretation you are saved by God regardless of any mistakes you make in practicing your religion. I will continue to put my faith in an all-loving all-powerful God who will use his omnipotent powers of forgiveness to save me and everyone else at the moment of death.

abelcainsbrother wrote: I'm just telling you that you will not go to heaven if you reject Jesus for your salvation no matter how many good works you think you are doing. You are not a sinnless person like Jesus Christ was and only he can remove your sin but your sins will not be removed or overlooked by God based on your works. You are caught up in a false religion. ALL false religions teach works for salvation. Your religion is no diffeent than Islam,Hinduism,Jehovah witnesses,Moromonism,etc these are all false religions and they all have the same thing in common they teach works for salvation. It will not work and you and they are just as lost as an anti-God militant atheist. You cannot reject Jesus Christ and go to heaven period. You must be saved by Jesus,there is no other way to be saved. And if you love God like you claim you would do things God's way,but you're not based on what you say and believe. I'm telling you what God's word says. You cannot do things your way and please God. God will never overlook your sin or remove your sin based on what good works you do. You are not following God's word.

I'm not rejecting Jesus I'm embracing God. It's not a question of it being "my way". I am putting my faith in God.

Here's a recent quote from Pope Francis:

PopeFrancis wrote: Francis also spoke out strongly again against religious fundamentalism, saying that fundamentalism exists in all religions and should be combatted with efforts at friendship. He said he prefers not to speak of having tolerance for other religious, but "living together, friendship."

"Fundamentalism is a sickness that is in all religions," said the pontiff. "We Catholics have some -- and not some, many -- who believe in the absolute truth and go ahead dirtying the other with calumny, with disinformation, and doing evil."

"They do evil," said the pope. "I say this because it is my church."

"We have to combat it," he said. "Religious fundamentalism is not religious, because it lacks God. It is idolatry, like the idolatry of money."

Are you going to say the Pope is not going to be saved because he's putting God first before idolizing a particular way of practicing religion?