Evidence for God from Science

melanie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

melanie wrote:Paul I was being facetious and a perhaps a little silly.
But you have brought up some interesting ideas.
That's just bloody cruel.
You are born genetically that way, but u don't dare act on it.
Resist those impulses even though gentically you are have been given the shiitest hand because through no fault of your own this is your preferred attraction but it's an abomination.

It is no greater sin or burden than being born any other way that is not ideal for us.
Being born with violent tendencies and NOT acting on them.
Being born with sexual attraction to children and not acting on them.
Being born with the desire to steal and not acting upon them.
I can go on the you get the point.
WE have made it seem to be a far greater burden than it truly is.
Being sexually attracted to something that is NOT good for us and not acting on those impulses is just like wanting to do anything else that you know to be wrong (ie: not good for you) for you and not doing it.

Being born gay is like being born with any other issue that is not ideal, not good for you.
Be it the desire to steal, hurt others, hurt self, lie, etc, etc.

We have made it seem like a far greater burden than it is?
Out of the mouths of heterosexuals......

Have you looked at the suicide rate of homosexuals?
Felt the anguish and pain of those who struggle with their faith and their desires. Heard them cry at night and ask God why they were born that way?
Felt their isolation and abandonment when they are shunned by the church and family. Kicked out of home.
I read a harrowing account of Christian parents who did exactly that. Pushed their son out of the family home, told him that his desires were of evil and would be of great consequence. Heard him crying at night, so confused and troubled. He hated himself. Their church backed them on their hard stance.
That boy killed himself.

When I was in the latter years of high school a guy started at our school. He was immediately picked on. He was very flamboyant and quite obviously gay. We became friends and I realsied very quickly that he was pretty awesome. He was smart, funny and caring.
I really went out of my way to let others know how great he was. I told them to give him a chance, especially my guy mates. I invited him along to social events and before too long he was a popular, well liked guy. Him being gay had nothing to do with it, he really was just a really cool guy.
A few years later I saw him and we caught up with where we were at in life. As I was leaving he took my hand and said 'thankyou for being so kind to me at school', I was like sure no worries. He then told me, 'no, you don't understand. You made a huge difference in my life. He went on to explain that he had already been to two previous high schools and was bullied and picked on routinely. He fell into a depression and attempted suicide. His parents moved him from Melbourne to the country town I lived in for a fresh start. He told me when the taunts started at the new school, my high school he knew he couldn't take it again. He started contemplating suicide again, but this time would make sure he did it right.
Then we became mates and he said everything changed. He became well liked and was even one of 'the boys'. He knew that I was talking to the other kids about him because they told him 'Mel was right about you' and things of the like.
He had tears in eyes as he hugged me, thanked me and told me it was the first time in his life he felt accepted and liked.

That had nothing to do with being accepted and liked for being gay, but for just being him.
I was about 20 when that happened and it was and remains a defining moment in my life.
I realised just how much our thoughts and deeds impact others. That kindness penetrates far and wide. That we can make a difference in someone's life. Even when we may not realise just how much.

So, yes there are many sins such as you stated that people live with which you brought up like violence and stealing and pedophilia. But the list doesn't stop there. We all struggle with sin everyday. Jealousy, envy, pride, anger, vanity, ect ect ect.

I am not pro gay. I didn't sport the rainbow profile on FB that every other person was. If it gets put to referendum in regards to gay marraige I will vote 'no'.
I'm not endorsing or condoning the lifestyle.
But I love the heck out of them.
I'm going to treat them with nothing other than dignity, worth, love and acceptance. Not acceptance because they're gay, but because their human.
Am I going to in this perceived righteous love tell them how sinful they really are. Because they are headed for a cliff and someone has to stop them from tumbling off right?
Because if I don't tell them that the wages of sin is death, then I'm not really loving them.

So what about my friends who are vain, do I remind them how sinful they are. My obese sister has a unhealthy love of food, should I remind her that her gluttony is an abomination that she better get a handle on otherwise hell's heating up for her. People will say, oh but you have to remind her that it's unhealthy. Remind her she's really fat, right, that's helpful.
I just love them, wholeheartedly and unconditionally.
They know I'm a Christian, I don't beat them over the head with it, on occassion its discussed.
I'm trying to shine the light of Christ as brightly as I can so that it may lead them hopefully one day to Jesus. That way is through love.
Then Jesus can work in them. I can't badger the gay out of them but Jesus can love us a little more perfect everyday.

As someone that has supported closed AND openly gay family members, I do know personally, what I am talking about.
I don't think that you understood what I was saying though.

It is because we make such a big deal of being gay that bad things happen and my point is that we should NOT make it a big deal and should deal with it like we do any other sin or genetic disposition that is not ideal for us, if you prefer.
It does NOT mean shunning or not supporting homosexuals, far from it.
It means supporting them like we do anyone else with a problem, from violence to alcoholism.
Homosexuality is not any greater sin than stealing for example or spousal abuse.
As a socieity we have made it a stigma of sorts because it deals with sexuality and we, as Freud would say, think with our loins.
No one will say that every sexual desire is healthy and good because we know that some are not.
No one will say that every sexual orientation is health and good because we know they are not.

Remember, the issue is that humans are NOT defined by the sexuality and that means that some sexual desires CAN and SHOULD be avoid.

Yes, this "I'm born THIS way, THAT way, or with certain inclinations, and therefore I'm helpless to behave or rise above my passions and desires" belief goes against Scripture, the notion of free will, self control, and common sense. Scripture makes clear our natural / default inclination is to do sinful things, as opposed to following God's instructions for moral conduct and righteous behavior. So, are we to believe God created people so that certain behaviors are inevitable / essentially unavoidable / perfectly natural to them, AND YET he also makes it clear certain behaviors and actions are sinful, and He also condemns them for such sins? Sounds like some kind of sexual Calvinism!

How about this: We are born with a sin nature and desire to do various sins, and those things will seem as if perfectly natural to us. But God's word teaches that what seems right to a man is often anything but, to Him. A pedophile, adulterer, rapist, or thief will tell you they have strong, compelling - yes, NATURAL (to THEM) - urges to do terrible acts. So, did God make such people so as they are incapable of acting within the parameters HE says are righteous, that they are INCAPABLE of - with His help and reliance - of overcoming their base instincts? If you believe what Scripture teaches about things it calls sin, what it asserts about the horrific consequences of what often seems natural to a person, then you will realize we are NOT trapped or necessitated by our desires and instincts. It's what makes us different from the beasts. And we are thus free to depend upon God to overcome our own sinful desires and instincts.

Is it any less sinful for a married person to desire sex with ones other than their spouse? Is not such sexual temptation not sometimes powerful? Does it not SEEM totally natural as to how they were created? Of COURSE it does. Is desiring or acting upon that temptation any less of a sin, just because it comes naturally to want such encounters, or just because it would be a heterosexual escapade? Of course NOT - it's every bit as sinful as other sinful things. Man just loves to insist they are created in certain ways so as to be incapable of doing what God's word instructs. So, their often disingenuous response: Declare the Scriptures wrong, misunderstood, of false (not of God). Simple, right?

As has been stated, homosexuality is but another serious sin, although one God singles out amongst others He singles out - likely as per their more severe impact upon people, families and society. Clearly, there ARE Christians who are involved in homosexual practices - and I believe these to be of two kinds: The first is a Christian who KNOWS homosexuality is wrong, is praying and struggling in their walk with Christ to over come it. There are others, I would think, that are NEW to their Christian faith and/or they do not yet understand that God condemns homosexual desires and activities, thinking their homosexuality to be God-given. Whether a Christian realizes it to be a sin or not, it does not change the ramifications and consequences for that sin - which are extensive, impacting themselves, their families, and society. For such uninformed Christians, for those of us whom DO know God's views on homosexual desires and activities, while also knowing of their terrible impacts and consequences, the LEAST loving thing we could ever do, is to assert to them that they should simply embrace it, as though that is how God made them, and the Scriptures on this were either not God-given or they somehow have perversely translated or interpreted.

Really, the right or wrongness of homosexuality all comes down to whether the Scriptures are somehow untrue or misinterpreted, NOT God-given, OR whether they are definitely true and of the Lord. Again, it comes down to how one views Scripture! Do our OPINIONS carry more weight and truth than God's word?

Really, the right or wrongness of homosexuality all comes down to whether the Scriptures are somehow untrue or misinterpreted, NOT God-given, OR whether they are definitely true and of the Lord. Again, it comes down to how one views Scripture! Do our OPINIONS carry more weight and truth than God's word?

Yes, and no.
Yes, the scriptural context is important to a believer ( to a non-believer it is, of course, irrelevant) but what is also important is the logic and reason behind homosexuality not being ideal for a human being.
Sexually speaking from a biological point of view, humans have sex to reproduce.
That is THE function of sex as nature has selected it to be.
Anything that impedes in the success of that function is less than ideal, it is outside the norm, it deviate from the norm and by norm I mean, biologically speaking, what is normal and ideal for the human species.
In short and genetic trait that makes procreation more difficult or impossible is viewed, biologically speaking, as an undesirable trait and if a person is born that way, it is viewed as a genetic defect ( much like being born sterile or with no reproductive ability).

In short, homosexulaity, because it goes againt the very natural function of human sexulaity, is NOT good for the human species as it cause the person born that way to NOT be able to reproduce, which is the natural function and end goal of sex.

Paul: In short, homosexuality, because it goes against the very natural function of human sexuality, is NOT good for the human species as it cause the person born that way to NOT be able to reproduce, which is the natural function and end goal of sex.

Yes, but for one whom only believes in naturalism or evolutionary origins, the above wouldn't change the way things were - as if homosexual genetics were a mere side-branching, genetic dead-end - yet not as to some subjective right or wrong, as such evaluations are both subjective and irrelevant to the moral issue. If fact, if there is only naturalism and no God behind the world, then obviously, whatever the reality we've ended up with, however the mechanisms developed and worked, right or wrong has nothing to do with it - as reality would just be how things HAPPENED to turn out. Perhaps a different "happening" would have produced offspring through asexual means, or exclusively - even, perhaps mutually - by both homosexual or heterosexual means (also, bi-sexual - which would include both).

Also, I agree, that if pure naturalism is the only force that has produced sexuality, then, clearly, homosexuality is the far weaker, more random, less successful, and ultimately a dead-end alley of finality. If a biological entity seemingly programmed via nature to be homosexual in nature had some mysterious Darwinian drive to pass on it's genes, to seek beneficial solutions - however blindly - then it would (as if it could), begin to adopt heterosexual practices.

Ewww...no.
For one thing, poop is not a healthy substance to be playing in.
And the very idea of another woman looking at me that way is just nasty.
The yuck factor is too strong for me...

PaulSacramento wrote:

melanie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

melanie wrote:Paul I was being facetious and a perhaps a little silly.
But you have brought up some interesting ideas.
That's just bloody cruel.
You are born genetically that way, but u don't dare act on it.
Resist those impulses even though gentically you are have been given the shiitest hand because through no fault of your own this is your preferred attraction but it's an abomination.

It is no greater sin or burden than being born any other way that is not ideal for us.
Being born with violent tendencies and NOT acting on them.
Being born with sexual attraction to children and not acting on them.
Being born with the desire to steal and not acting upon them.
I can go on the you get the point.
WE have made it seem to be a far greater burden than it truly is.
Being sexually attracted to something that is NOT good for us and not acting on those impulses is just like wanting to do anything else that you know to be wrong (ie: not good for you) for you and not doing it.

Being born gay is like being born with any other issue that is not ideal, not good for you.
Be it the desire to steal, hurt others, hurt self, lie, etc, etc.

We have made it seem like a far greater burden than it is?
Out of the mouths of heterosexuals......

Have you looked at the suicide rate of homosexuals?
Felt the anguish and pain of those who struggle with their faith and their desires. Heard them cry at night and ask God why they were born that way?
Felt their isolation and abandonment when they are shunned by the church and family. Kicked out of home.
I read a harrowing account of Christian parents who did exactly that. Pushed their son out of the family home, told him that his desires were of evil and would be of great consequence. Heard him crying at night, so confused and troubled. He hated himself. Their church backed them on their hard stance.
That boy killed himself.

When I was in the latter years of high school a guy started at our school. He was immediately picked on. He was very flamboyant and quite obviously gay. We became friends and I realsied very quickly that he was pretty awesome. He was smart, funny and caring.
I really went out of my way to let others know how great he was. I told them to give him a chance, especially my guy mates. I invited him along to social events and before too long he was a popular, well liked guy. Him being gay had nothing to do with it, he really was just a really cool guy.
A few years later I saw him and we caught up with where we were at in life. As I was leaving he took my hand and said 'thankyou for being so kind to me at school', I was like sure no worries. He then told me, 'no, you don't understand. You made a huge difference in my life. He went on to explain that he had already been to two previous high schools and was bullied and picked on routinely. He fell into a depression and attempted suicide. His parents moved him from Melbourne to the country town I lived in for a fresh start. He told me when the taunts started at the new school, my high school he knew he couldn't take it again. He started contemplating suicide again, but this time would make sure he did it right.
Then we became mates and he said everything changed. He became well liked and was even one of 'the boys'. He knew that I was talking to the other kids about him because they told him 'Mel was right about you' and things of the like.
He had tears in eyes as he hugged me, thanked me and told me it was the first time in his life he felt accepted and liked.

That had nothing to do with being accepted and liked for being gay, but for just being him.
I was about 20 when that happened and it was and remains a defining moment in my life.
I realised just how much our thoughts and deeds impact others. That kindness penetrates far and wide. That we can make a difference in someone's life. Even when we may not realise just how much.

So, yes there are many sins such as you stated that people live with which you brought up like violence and stealing and pedophilia. But the list doesn't stop there. We all struggle with sin everyday. Jealousy, envy, pride, anger, vanity, ect ect ect.

I am not pro gay. I didn't sport the rainbow profile on FB that every other person was. If it gets put to referendum in regards to gay marraige I will vote 'no'.
I'm not endorsing or condoning the lifestyle.
But I love the heck out of them.
I'm going to treat them with nothing other than dignity, worth, love and acceptance. Not acceptance because they're gay, but because their human.
Am I going to in this perceived righteous love tell them how sinful they really are. Because they are headed for a cliff and someone has to stop them from tumbling off right?
Because if I don't tell them that the wages of sin is death, then I'm not really loving them.

So what about my friends who are vain, do I remind them how sinful they are. My obese sister has a unhealthy love of food, should I remind her that her gluttony is an abomination that she better get a handle on otherwise hell's heating up for her. People will say, oh but you have to remind her that it's unhealthy. Remind her she's really fat, right, that's helpful.
I just love them, wholeheartedly and unconditionally.
They know I'm a Christian, I don't beat them over the head with it, on occassion its discussed.
I'm trying to shine the light of Christ as brightly as I can so that it may lead them hopefully one day to Jesus. That way is through love.
Then Jesus can work in them. I can't badger the gay out of them but Jesus can love us a little more perfect everyday.

As someone that has supported closed AND openly gay family members, I do know personally, what I am talking about.
I don't think that you understood what I was saying though.

It is because we make such a big deal of being gay that bad things happen and my point is that we should NOT make it a big deal and should deal with it like we do any other sin or genetic disposition that is not ideal for us, if you prefer.
It does NOT mean shunning or not supporting homosexuals, far from it.
It means supporting them like we do anyone else with a problem, from violence to alcoholism.
Homosexuality is not any greater sin than stealing for example or spousal abuse.
As a socieity we have made it a stigma of sorts because it deals with sexuality and we, as Freud would say, think with our loins.
No one will say that every sexual desire is healthy and good because we know that some are not.
No one will say that every sexual orientation is health and good because we know they are not.

Remember, the issue is that humans are NOT defined by the sexuality and that means that some sexual desires CAN and SHOULD be avoid.

Deleted because well I can
And because this topic is important and I want to represent my thoughts coherently, it's the Australia Day long weekend here and I had friends over and a Bbq last night and well let's just say I was a little more prone to rambling

TheBarrd wrote:Ewww...no.
For one thing, poop is not a healthy substance to be playing in.
And the very idea of another woman looking at me that way is just nasty.
The yuck factor is too strong for me...

The yick factor is a common thing we hear.
It's just yucky.....
It's not the most intellectual response but a valid one,

Although many heterosexual couples engage in 'yucky' sex.
A whole genre of porn is subjected to such,
I'm not saying it's right, but many heterosexual couples partake.
As they do in all sorts of sexual deviance

So is the question the desire? Or the action?
Or the sexuality of the participant?..
Where do we draw the line of acceptability?

I don't think the first reaction to such things is intellectual, but visceral.
And I'd say the same thing to heterosexual couples who engage in what you call "yucky" sex.
It is interesting that you use the term "deviance"...you know it is "deviant" behavior, and not "natural".

I think it would be best to state upfront that I am not trying to justify homosexuality as not a sin in God's eyes. Sure, it is; and I'll let God deal with it as he pleases. But do allow me to be D. Advocate for a moment.

Kurieuo wrote:

neo-x wrote:Eating pig was once a sin.
Wearing clothes made with two different fabrics was a sin once.
And stoning the prostitute, and burning the witch was the absolute right thing to do.

These aren't the wrong or right things to do anymore.

Kind of irrelevant Israel's own covenant with God.
I'd recommend picking up a good Leviticus commentary also, to understand the practical or symbolic merit to Israel's Laws also. When I did that I find it all quite interesting. Nonetheless these examples, well, I don't see the relevance.

I find it ironic, given that the command against homosexuality is also found just there, in Israel's laws. Not outside of it.
Thank you for the recommendation btw, which commentary did you read? Let me know.

Hmm. Ok. Well, I don't see "being gay" as the same as "being left-handed."
I don't think people are their behaviour at all. And I think people can and do rise above their natural desires.

More importantly, there is nothing that comes close to breaking natural law being left-handed.
On the other hand, clearly the physical design in the natural world intends a certain order.

I agree with you all the way. However, there is also no physical design that shows that man can fly, but we do. And I agree it's not a moral issue. However your argument here is not based on moral/immoral, it's based on intended design and function as the natural law dictates. Then, if I were to be following the strict nature of the argument of natural law, then yes I agree with you, homosexuality is in breach of it...and so is flying.

Do you see it differently?

Now, people may disrespect such order, ignore that order and the like, but going against such has consequences regardless of people's sentiments. Btw, this doesn't just apply to homosexuality, but also having more than one sexual partner. I've seen the natural consequences play out in marriages where one cheats on the other. Both with children, and the one cheated on, and even the cheater. Yes, the natural consequences are often immaterial, but just because they're invisible (at least until it all bubbles up), such doesn't mean they're not nonetheless real. Sometimes, they're even physical, if for example a jealous partner flies into a rage and kills their spouse or the person cheated with. So... natural law (which isn't just about God) pays no respect to what you might get away with (because you won't), or whether you're actually born with a gene that wants to break with the design found in nature -- no, the person breaking it will wear the consequences and there is normally a fallout effect upon others too.

An example I often use; if a little boy is playing next to a cliff, and they slip, well "gravity" isn't going to say, poor kid didn't know better so I'm not going to dash his little body on the rocks below. There is a natural law in the world, and it doesn't just apply to physics. Go against it, there are consequences. It doesn't care if you're left-handed or right-handed, I can't see how it would. But, then there is a design in our world we all can see.

You are right, it doesn't care at all. Don't get me wrong btw, the first thing your example reminded me was of Dawkins quote about "...pitiless indifference." However, contrary to you however, he states there is no design in such nature.

But back to the point, yes going against the natural law has consequences.

And I don't believe anyone is really born with violent tendencies. Nor do I believe anyone is really born a pedophile. Nor do I believe anyone is born gay. Yet, it stands to reason if being "gay" is gene related, then so too is pedophilia and so too are violent tendencies. And yet, we believe pedos and killers should rise above their nature in such and if they don't then it's justice to condemn and punish them for their natures they had no say in?

First of all genetic evidence is showing more and more signs that sexual orientation is not based on a person's like or dislike, it's hardwired. perhaps we'll know more in the coming years. But that is all I don't think we have evidence that people are born with pedophilia or violent tendencies. If there is such evidence I would really like to know about it. However, we do have evidence (at least of which I know of) that some people are born without empathy (some of them become serial killers too later on but not everyone), their brains cannot produce that harmone which causes empathy so they don't feel someone's else's pain or suffering at all, even if they tried.

K, If your brain production of Dopamine is inoperative, you can't feel pleasure. Because happiness is not an abstract feeling, it's based on a chemical in our brain and in its absence/dysfunction you can't be happy, no matter how much anyone can expect you to be happy.

So if someone is born gay the same way, he can't choose between the sex he is programmed to be attracted to.

I have a friend, who is asexual. Sex mean nothing to him. He doesn't even have feelings for anyone. Do you think he is in breach of natural law? I think he is but there's nothing he can do about it, even if God threw buckets of encouragement on him, he can't. Because his brain doesn't secrete that chemical.

Should I punish him/ban him/exclude him/put him in jail because he is in breach of natural law?

Should I expect him to rise above it? Sure. But how?

As far as pedo's and violent people are concerned. No, we don't. We do not punish them on their nature but on their deeds. Can you put someone in jail because he only thinks about molesting children?

We expect to stop pedo's and violent people because they physically and mentally hurt others.
Gays don't.

To someone who is born that way it's just impossible and painful to deal with. I am baffled, being born a pedofile, rapist or killer is somehow not a problem, but carrying out acts associated with such are? FWIW, this flies in the face of what Christ taught in the gospel. Even by looking at someone with an immoral desire, you have already sinned. The desire is the problem, not the act. So being a pedo, rapist or killer is the sin, especially if you have it as a born instinct. It is a sin through and through.

Pedophile/rapists/killers are not born. If there is evidence of such which I am ignorant of, then yes I will consider this argument sure. I will tell you what I think, being born gay or not is between two genders, not age groups. Someone can hurt a child as much as an adult. But having a genetic natural pheromonal attraction is different.

To someone who is born that way it's just impossible and painful to deal with. I am baffled, being born a pedofile, rapist or killer is somehow not a problem, but carrying out acts associated with such are? FWIW, this flies in the face of what Christ taught in the gospel. Even by looking at someone with an immoral desire, you have already sinned. The desire is the problem, not the act. So being a pedo, rapist or killer is the sin, especially if you have it as a born instinct. It is a sin through and through.

And I agree. It is. So how do we square that with an all loving God?

I hope you're not offended by my word substitutions with your own words. Hopefully it's become clear what is being missed. It's kind of clear to me, but anyway. Really, I'm not intending to ruffle your feathers here, but perhaps, just perhaps, everything about us, our sentience, intelligence, behaviour and the like doesn't have a 1:1 physical correlation.

Not at all, K. I know you mean the best and that is what matters.

But, if it does, even in the case of homosexuality, then God has given humans the power to rise above their nature and be more than merely follow some animalistic instinct. That, isn't found in our body, but our will in the very core of our psyche whatever such is made of.

Amen, I hope that is true but I haven't seen how it could be. But I do hope I am wrong.

neo-x wrote:I think it would be best to state upfront that I am not trying to justify homosexuality as not a sin in God's eyes. Sure, it is; and I'll let God deal with it as he pleases. But do allow me to be D. Advocate for a moment.

Kurieuo wrote:

neo-x wrote:Eating pig was once a sin.
Wearing clothes made with two different fabrics was a sin once.
And stoning the prostitute, and burning the witch was the absolute right thing to do.

These aren't the wrong or right things to do anymore.

Kind of irrelevant Israel's own covenant with God.
I'd recommend picking up a good Leviticus commentary also, to understand the practical or symbolic merit to Israel's Laws also. When I did that I find it all quite interesting. Nonetheless these examples, well, I don't see the relevance.

I find it ironic, given that the command against homosexuality is also found just there, in Israel's laws. Not outside of it.
Thank you for the recommendation btw, which commentary did you read? Let me know.

I read a book with a different cover that belonged to my dad about 20 years ago.
However, I believe it was Andrew Bonar - http://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B00E00ALL4/
I have a copy of it, if interested. It has about the sacrificial system (obviously) and what-not.


Re: the other topic, Natural Law... although a man can get off on another man, or woman another woman, or man multiple women, woman multiple men, dog, sheep, goat, etc, etc... the inherent natural design verified via offspring and the like is obviously Male-Female of same type. I really don't see how it can be logically argued away given how the two opposite sexes compliment each other.

Therefore, given this, clearly something is going wrong naturally with same sex attraction. I'm not diminishing a homosexual's feelings for the same sex, but just because they feel irreversibly attracted to the wrong sex (wrong as revealed in nature itself), then such highly suggests something went wrong somewhere. Maybe too much hormones in meat, chemicals in food, wrong foods, pollution, I don't know -- but something has gone awry. Or perhaps, just perhaps, they just don't morally care about such and so made a free decision to experiment and/or explore all sorts of sexual pleasures. Perhaps they were molested, raped or the like. And then, they ended up growing an appetite for certain kinds of unnatural sexual acts.

Marriage is just not naturally possible between male and male, or female and female. This union is physically impossible despite whatever is going on up in one's brain. That much ought to be clear to all. Now depending on the way one looks at it, either "Nature" intended things that way or God did.

As for Christian theology (outside of Israel's laws/Judaism/Old Testament), Christ Himself re-affirmed the intended order also stating:

• 4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” (Matt 19:4-6)

Regarding the science, I believe you've been misled. The science presented is often skewed and one side presented in the voice of those who are screaming the loudest, which is often in accord to the strong social sentiments of the day. Science doesn't work that way however. If you believe they have found a "gay gene/s", please share this hard evidence with me.

Kurieuo wrote: I read a book with a different cover that belonged to my dad about 20 years ago.
However, I believe it was Andrew Bonar - http://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B00E00ALL4/
I have a copy of it, if interested. It has about the sacrificial system (obviously) and what-not.

Thank you K, I'll see if I can find one myself.

Re: the other topic, Natural Law... although a man can get off on another man, or woman another woman, or man multiple women, woman multiple men, dog, sheep, goat, etc, etc... the inherent natural design verified via offspring and the like is obviously Male-Female of same type. I really don't see how it can be logically argued away given how the two opposite sexes compliment each other.

It can't be logically argued from there.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, they just don't morally care about such and so made a free decision to experiment and/or explore all sorts of sexual pleasures. Perhaps they were molested, raped or the like. And then, they ended up growing an appetite for certain kinds of unnatural sexual acts.

ofcourse, there are those as well. But it will be wrong to think all of them do it because of this. You know many inmates in prison often go gay temporary, and when the come out they are straight back again.

Regarding the science, I believe you've been mislead.

That may or may not be true but if you are confident, I can revise and look back. However as per your argument sounded, it doesn't matter if the science behind it is true and false? Am I correct in assuming this?

tHANKS.

Well since you're not going to push the other way (kind of a relief ), let me take a step back to bring more balance to my words. Because homosexuality is not the issue, but rather just a symptom of what is epidemic.

I really hate it when someone asks, "is this a sin" or "is that a sin". "How can I stop looking at porn", or "Is it alright to masturbate?" etc etc. God, get a grip. You know in your heart what is right and wrong, and regardless we're sinners yet Christ has our back anyway. Even our good works are like filthy bloodstained rags to God, so Scripture says. So put your attention elsewhere. Just focus on what Christ said: love God and love each other. Don't you know that love covers a multitude of sins? (1 Peter 4:8)

Fact is, we're all still sinners, we'll continue struggling with sin until we die, however we've been grafted into Christ. Who can come against Christ? No one. Who can accuse us if we're in Christ? No one. Who can judge us? No one. At least, no one but Christ Himself. God's already justified Christ, so those who are in Him pass from judgement. And here I'm talking Christian theology, so if anyone reading isn't Christian my words here will be meaningless; I'm talking to Christians.

Therefore, for me, it really doesn't come back to what is morally good or morally bad, but rather what is most loving.

I'm quite convinced that since the sexual revolution in the 20th century with contraception and the like (not that I'm against contraception in of itself because I use it too, though logically I can't justify that either against the natural law I see ), but it allows us to entertain an unhealthy sexual appetite. We can now have sex, sex, sex... with this person, and that person... contraception greatly thwarts conceiving new life which is a natural outcome of sex.

Divorce gained the highest rates it's ever been. The family structure is seriously broken. Compound other issues like the World Wars in the 20th century, these also created alcoholic parents or many fatherless generations and broken familes. Children not having a correct family structure, mixed with sexual liberation, has just broken down the intended family structure healthy for raising kids and human society.

It is no surprise then, that other sexual desires and the like, unintended by nature also happen. Homosexual attraction is one. Why not indulge? We're already a sexually liberal society. And again, there will be further consequences to that, including gay couples raising children who will then not have both their natural parents.

Such liberation has also been aided by the media, such that we're all inundated with sex on a daily basis. Yet, many Christians barely blink, indeed they're probably thinking God please forgive me, but I'd love to have a piece of that. The Internet is littered with sexy images, try to entice and arouse us to feed our minds what is only placebo for a real and legitimate more fulfilling relationship. Such destroys how we associate with our partners in marriage, even the opposite sex, and who knows possibly leads to seeing a prostitute or having an affair on a site such as Ashley Madison or something other.

God, we can and are corrupted in so many ways. Nessa's questions should just be whether we would we be pro-sin if we weren't Christian. It'd be whatever I fancy and thought I could get away with. Even if the natural order of things means I will suffer consequences to some level, we all tend to convince ourselves we can get away with stuff. You know, stealing a small item in a shop. Maybe having a mistress on the side behind our wife's back, being or the down-low or God knows what.

Here, Christians shouldn't be against homosexuality because it's wrong, they should be against it because they love God and love people; desire what is healthy and correct as intended. Against sexual liberation because it destroys a socially healthy human society and the family unit. Homosexual attraction is but another chink thwarting the intended design of things, but by no means is it the be-all and end-all.

God, I could go on with the natural order of things, and consequences I see... in any case, it is a good question, even if I hate the question. In reality, I could respond I'm pro-gay, probably more than most gay people are... because I stick to my guns believing they won't be helped by just going along with a lie because I want them to be more in line with the intended order God designed (or "Nature" if one is anti-God). I'm not against homosexuals at all. I would never call myself anti-gay. Christians who just believe homosexuality is wrong because they're just told as such I'd be a little disappointed in.

I agree with you K about the breakdown of the family structure. You bring up some good points.
But homosexuality isn't a symptom of modern sexual liberation it has been around since the dawn of time. In some cultures quite acceptable and a 'normal' function of that society. Ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt for example.
Now I'm not condoning in the slightest the practises as they involved older men taking adolescent boys but when you stated that due to sexual liberation it's no surprise that other sexual desires unintended by nature also happen I don't think homosexuality has 'come about' due to the perverse society we live in. Now we could argue it has become widely accepted and is now openly practiced due to the breakdown of society but homosexuality has been around for thousands of years, it lurked in the fringes and shadows whereas now it has come to the forefront as to what is an acceptable sexual practice.

I bring this up because I think it's an important point. The idea that someone partakes in homosexual behaviour because they think 'oh there's no consequence, life's short, why not give it go' is not really how it works. Well not for most. Yes, there are some people who are sexually open to anything to feed an unhealthy, insatiable sexual appetite but that is not representative of the bigger picture.

There have been many studies into homosexuality and the general consensus within the scientific community is that they are born that way. Unlike pedophiles and serial rapist and killers who are identified psychologically speaking by set parameters. The field of criminology which looks intensely at profiling these people have found common links, backgrounds, exposure to certain family dynamics, personality traits, gender ect to be a common link between these people.
No such link is found in homosexuals. There is no common ground. They represent a cross section of society from all backgrounds, experiences, personality types ect.
If it was a learnt behaviour psychologist believe there would be some commonality found but there is not.
From personal experience and from talking to other people especially parents of homosexuals, there was identifying factors even long before sexual maturation.
These overwhelming testimonials have also influenced the belief within science that this is a born trait.

When you have spoken to a gay person who hated being that way, who was bullied and abandoned by family, who longed to have the desires 'go away' it brings an understanding of what seems to be little choice of who they are sexually attracted too.
We can speak of the 'normal' sexual order but what if they have been born that way, it turns what is 'normal' for them on its head.
I can't imagine what it would be like to have sexual desires that are apparent from childhood, usually the age of about 12 that are offensive to not only yourself but others and to feel unable to curb them.

That is why I have a great deal of empathy for especially homosexual Christians because it is a struggle that I could not even imagine. The burden must be so huge.
I'm not saying, nor have I ever that it isn't a sin. I have never entered into that debate because I am a Christian and Gods intent and will is paramount for all of us.
But if they are born that way which I believe they are then they are harbouring on their shoulders one of the hardest weights to bear.
Why would God create homosexuals if it's so wrong is a question that is often asked but there are people born with some of the most horrendous diseases and disorders. There are genetic mutations that occur that cause some extreme disfigurement, missing limbs, half a brain absent, complete mental retardation, some people are born with both male and female sexual organs. People are born everyday that go against the 'natural order' of things.
Because we live in a fallen and broken world.
Our genetics are flawed.
I don't believe God micro manages these discrepancies as this experience we have in this world is not our final, ultimate state. Perfection and restoration await us in the Kingdom. God has allowed this world to manifest itself in its brokenness.
Gods plan albeit a plan that is sometimes difficult to understand.

I see homosexuals as a consequence of this fallen world, with flawed genes.
They did not ask for it, anymore than a child born with cancer.

I do believe that with the light and love of Christ anything is possible. I do not mean the practises put in place by the church which are now widely being abandoned to try and get the sin out of them. I think the way these programs work are wrong, and have clearly shown don't work because the intention was wrong to begin with.
When you start with condemnation and judgment then you have failed before you've started.
Gay Christian are told repeatedly you cannot be gay and Christian.
The entirety of whether they are considered part of the body of Christ and saved is dependent on how well they get the gay out of them.

These people are our brothers and sisters and should be treated as such.
I struggle with addiction. I think that is partly genetic and due to my experiences. I have come along way and was able to kick an addiction that without Jesus I would have found impossible and I am thankful that I never got involved in any hard drugs, just pot and alcohol.
But I still struggle, my Christianity is not dependent on my performance. I am grafted into Gods family through faith.

What I don't think is helpful and extremely harmful is this idea that you cannot be gay and Christian. I'm not saying you believe that to be so K. But it is a sentiment reflected within the church a lot. Or they can be gay, but can never act on it. They can never fall into the sin again.
What I hear is you can't be a sinner and Christian
Imagine that..... A church full of sinners

They are sick, like the rest of us and they need Jesus.
They need to be welcomed into our Christian family with an open, loving embrace. Without judgment or condemnation.
Embraced as a sinner and loved as a sinner.
Kinda like what Jesus does for us.

Mel wrote:
What I don't think is helpful and extremely harmful is this idea that you cannot be gay and Christian. I'm not saying you believe that to be so K. But it is a sentiment reflected within the church a lot. Or they can be gay, but can never act on it. They can never fall into the sin again.
What I hear is you can't be a sinner and Christian
Imagine that..... A church full of sinners

They are sick, like the rest of us and they need Jesus.
They need to be welcomed into our Christian family with an open, loving embrace. Without judgment or condemnation.
Embraced as a sinner and loved as a sinner.
Kinda like what Jesus does for us.

Well said Mel!