Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:18 pm**

JesusFreak wrote:Okay, for me, this is what I believe. I believe that the Bible is inspired by God breathed to men just like you and me and that the Bible is not false. But then again, it could be . I believe that most scripture in the Bible was inspired by God, but a minute part of the scripture may have been written down uninspired. But then, that means I have half-belief and that isn't acceptable for a growing faith. That is why I labled this thread - What Do You Do When You Start To Lose Faith? See, I partially lose faith because I can't deal with some of the scripture in the Bible because it seems tainted, it reads true, but doesn't feel God inspired, but the real jist of it is I really didn't know what went on back 2000+- years ago. So I don't know. I don't agree however with some of the people on this thread saying Jesus is not God and has cult like qualities to their posts (you know who you are ), Man is fallible, that is expected in a fallen world, we can become Christ like and yes Christ would much rather have people like that, BUT it isn't completely neccessary just as long as you are trying to become someone in Christ. I agree with Kendrick to some level that you can't just confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is savior to be saved, you have to put grunt work into it, making sure that your confessing means you will folllow in God's will. God is loving, but you have to earn your way up the ladder. To finish it off, we can't really know, we think we know, but we don't, what it will be like after death to have gone through the judgement and to see how our loving God judges us. There are hints in the Bible. If you profess your love into Christ and at least TRY to follow in his footsteps you are doing great, if you follow Christ exactly, you are doing excellent, but one over the other isn't neccassarily better when it comes to entering heaven, you still will be rewarded for your faith and doing what you could in the will of God.

I am going to quote another great speech by a man I believe is truly blessed in Discernment

I'm not sure what in your circumstances has given rise to this question but I want to attempt to provide an answer.

Faith is closely associated with Hope and Love in 1 Corinthians 13:13 (And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity). However, consider what Paul wrote in the second verse of this same chapter (And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing).

Pay particular attention to what Paul says about faith in relation to charity (love). If faith doesn't work in concert with love, it's not doing what it should be doing. In fact, Paul writes in Galatians 5:6 that "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." I like to summarize the ending of this verse by saying "faith works by love."

What does this have to do with obedience? In John 14:15 Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments and in John 15:10 Jesus said "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." Jesus ties obedience to love. The only way to develop this love is to have a direct relationship with Jesus Himself. Contrast this with the Pharisees (Matthew 23:23) who obeyed the law but failed to learn the lessons of the law because they kept the law through the strength of their own flesh. In Romans 9:31-32, Paul writes concerning Israel " But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;." In other words, they tried to produce obedience by their own strength. In the same way, we will fail if we try to obey God's word without developing a relationship with our savior! NO OTHER RESULT IS POSSIBLE!

In 1 John 4:20-21, John says "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also." In 1 John 3:16-18, John writes " Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.." This is an important concept. If you love your brother, you will do what is necessary to care for him. This sheds light on the passage from James that is the classic "Faith vs Works" text in the Bible.

James 2:14-18 "Faith vs Works"

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Verse 17 is clear--"faith without works is dead!" Faith MUST produce something in the believers life. James refers to this "something" as "works." However, note that the example in verses 15-16 is the same example that John used in 1 John 3:17 to show that love causes one to care for his brother.

Faith MUST produce something. We can follow the Pharisees path and obey without learning the necessary lessons or we can follow the path advocated by John (1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth), Paul (Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law), and Jesus himself {John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.),

Faith MUST produce something--the correct "something" is "Love" which will produce "works" and "obedience".

He sums up nicely what the Scripture says about Faith, Love, and Obedience. I hope you enjoyed the Read!

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:07 pm**

seedling wrote:Felgar, honestly ... did you actually read any of my posts? I did not make a blanket statement that the bible is not true and we need only seek guidance from within to grow in the Lord. You really didn't read anything I wrote, did you? Just what you wanted to read.

I have read every word. I'm only responding to the portions that I believe to be incorrect - some of what you're saying I have no problem with so I'm not responding to that. So let's get out the way right now what you've said and not said... You didn't say the Bible is not true? You made the incinuation that Adam and Eve, the Flood, even the Virgin Birth could have been borrowed from Roman paigan beliefs!!! This is unbelievable, and is certainly heresy. (Just to show you that I've been reading... Long passages so that they're not taken out of context.)

seedling wrote:August, I believe the bible was written by men who were seeking God, who were inspired to seek a "god" because they were afraid in a hostile world, because they were puzzled by many things that they wanted explained, because some sought a deeper meaning to their existence. These writers realized pertinent human truths. They communicated their wisdom, hope and experiences. Over much time. In different languages. From a different culture. The essence is there. Do I believe every word of the bible is directly from God, or from men "inspired" by God? No.

seedling wrote:Well ... it was never proven to me that it IS divinely inspired. And it resembles other myths and legends that have been documented by other cultures. Adam and Eve. The flood. God reigning fire on the earth from the heavens ... the "virgin" birth and the big deal of Mary conceiving without the taint of sex ... the Trinity ... resurrection. Each of these stories has "pagan" counterparts. Christianity fit in so well with the Roman empire's pagan beliefs that all they had to do was change the names and they had a personage to fit into every deity and belief that they had.

K, with that out of the way I want to get out of the menial arguing and on to the point, which is to encourage other believers reading this to study the infallable and divine Word of God while continuing to grow in their walk with Jesus.

seedling wrote:Neither did I say or even imply everyone should do as I do. I am just sharing what I am seeing in my spiritual walk up to this point in my life, that's all. Why are you so threatened?

I'm threatenned because you are misleading young believers... I started this whole post by explaining how the bible is the key source of external and infallable truth that is necessary to keep us in our walk with God - keeping in mind that Satan has but one purpose to deceive us and mess everything up. And I stand by that... It's no wonder people's faith fails them, when it hasn't been built on the foundation of the Word of God.

And you did, in fact, imply that others (not everyone, but others certainly) should do as you do. Remember your advice to Deborah?

seedling wrote:Deborah ... the people who wrote the bible were just like you and I. The Spirit speaks in a million ways. Hang on to the spirit in the Word ... you don't need to force yourself to study it so much or remember verses ...

seedling wrote:Brian will get all kinds of advice from everywhere ... ultimately he has to hear what the spirit is speaking to him and not be indoctrinated by anyone to believe anything. He will go out into this jungle of a world like all the rest of us with the precious seed God has given him inside and he will get battered and beat and confused and put down and lose hope and find it again ... and the seed will continue to grow because of the spirit within him, if he waters it and nurtures it.

He should not be indocrinated by anyone. But what he should do to strengthen his faith, is to freely chose to serve Jesus; to study the Bible and learn what it says. The more you know about it the more your faith will grow as you come to understand the infallabilty and wondrous nature of God and His Word. I offer these final words of encouragement to Brian, who the Word has given the perfect answer to how we can refute Satan's schemes and grow in our Faith. The reason Brian is struggling is because he's under attack by Satan... And Brian can use the Word just like Jesus did to put the devil and his lies to an end.

Ephesians 6:10-18
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Now I highlighted the portions referencing the Bible and studying it. But as a final note I want to point out how the passage also shows the importance of faith, salvation, and prayer to our walk with God. The passage is telling us to listen to the Holy Spirit, to seek Jesus in prayer, and at the same time to learn and know the Word of God.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:10 pm**

Hi Felgar,

I started this whole post by explaining how the bible is the key source of external and infallable truth that is necessary to keep us in our walk with God - keeping in mind that Satan has but one purpose to deceive us and mess everything up. And I stand by that... It's no wonder people's faith fails them, when it hasn't been built on the foundation of the Word of God.

So in order not to confuse the would-be-saved people about the human errors in the Bible, like say on an Alpha course, you don't tell them, like say you were selling an imperfect car. They tell the customer the car is really you, when you drive the car. They make you identify with it, that you were part of it and made to sit at it's wheel. That you are inseparable.

Would this be more profitable than honest? Why do we have so many people years down the line who have cut off family and friends and evangalised on street corners, saying "oops, sorry".

And you know as well, pushing the Bible at little children isn't going to wake them, but your example, and outpouring of spirit will. Your words will be like living water. But people are afraid to live and let God. They haven't read every scripture so how are they to know if they contradict it. So they rely on 'Doctors' of Theology to keep them straight and lead them.

The Key source of infallable truth is the Spirit. Jesus told you about it and even came back from the dead to remind you. How many more times? The Jews had "The Word of God". They still do. Kept in a prisitine cabinet and ceremonially paraded out every Sabath in every Synagogue.

Test everything by this Spirit and your faith will grow. Else you'll be back here if five years time discussing the Greek translation against the Aramaic, and be wowed by the most knowlegeable among you. You'll not be fishers of men's heart, but fissures of doubts.

When Children are ready. they are ready. They will search, for this is the calling of all who seek. If they are not ready they will only be fed by words and become part of the sects called denominations whose only difference are points of theology. Come as little children to the Lord.

Yes teach life-lessons from the Bible, for men have lost their lives giving their revelation to you. Give them 'history' lessons and show the love and truth it contains is real today as it was then. There is more truth revealed in your heart about you, than you can speak with your lips, mind or written words put together.

And Brian can use the Word just like Jesus did to put the devil and his lies to an end.

Absolutely. Brian can say no. And mean it. Jesus has given him authority.

Then you will know how to deal with every moment as you should and not be shouting over disturbed people say "In Jeezus Name, In Jeezus Name". You will know what to do.

And you will heal the tormented mind and grieving soul.

All I say is repent, knowing Jesus is the Way the truth and the life to live, and invite God into your heart. The journey cannot begin no matter how much you learn the book. The Spirit is to mind you; the book is to re-mind you. The teachings of Churchianity speak of the opposite. They say the Book will Mind you, and your guilt/spirit will Remind you. You live in their religious prison, and not in the free kingdom Jesus shares.

Jesus came to find so God will bind.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:48 pm**

Kendrick,

I've pretty much said all I think I should on the matter. Besides it's hard to argue with someone who won't accept the authority and truth of the bible, because internalizing truth makes it relative and thus impossible to apply to others. Hopefully others reading this will understand how this plays into the necessity of believing in God's Word if we are truly intent on seeking Him.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:25 pm**

I think we all can agree that there is no authority higher than God!
What we don't share is that the bible is the word of God.
My understanding is God is showing us that it is his word by telling is to prove all things.

1Th 5:21 -
Prove all things (panta ̣dě dokimazete). Probably de (but) is genuine. Even the gift of prophecy has to be tested (1Co_12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge) to avoid error. Paul shows fine balance here.
Hold fast that which is good (to kalon katechete). Keep on holding down the beautiful (noble, morally beautiful). Present imperative kaṫechō (perfective use of katȧ here).

from Robertsons word pictures

I would have agreed that something could have been lost in translation, but so far I have found nothing. But I shall continue searching, and I will do whatever I need to do to understand the tools needed for such a journey. After all I have the rest of my life

What better way to worship and praise God, but by following his commands and proving all things. I am not in this for a short time, I am in for the long haul.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:44 pm**

If there are errors in the bible there must be evidence of them.
Produce a scripture that you think is a error. Don't just tell us that what we believe is the word of god has errors in it, produce the said error/s.
I have heard and read it said that there are not errors in the bible, those who think it is a error merely misunderstand the scripture/s.
If our spirit/soul is the heart of us, this is the part of us who can most promenantly without question have a relationship with God, this is the part of us that is eternal like god, this is the part of us that is made in the image of our heavenly father. Is it perfect? Perhaps if becomes perfect once we accept in our minds that the spirit/soul is that part of us that is most like god, therefore it should be incharge, not our brains. Haven't you noticed that our minds tell us negative things about ourselves and what we believe in. Perhaps when we can put that part of us that is most like God incharge of us, then we are truely capable of understanding the word of god. If any part of us reconizes our creator it is our spirit/soul.
I believe that the lord wants all his children to share eternity with him.
He wants this so much that he became a sacrafice for us all. I believe this life is a test, and God even provides the correct answers. the ultamite lesson of the bible is to teach mankind to love each other and god, as it will be a requirement to enter into eternity with god. All god asks of us leads to us to learn to love mankind and god with all that is us. I think maybe he is telling us that we should put nothing else before these two things. He called them his two most important commandments.
Mar 12:29-31 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord;
and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. And the second is like this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Do you limit the power of god to inspire men to write down his words, and to inspire translators to translate correctly.? This is why God said to Prove all, so we can see for ourselves that it is infact the word of god, so that we may know him better. We are not only asked to study his word, we are asked to strive to understand it, Eph 5:17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
there are many more messages in his word.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:38 am**

Deborah,

There are not big errors in the bible, only human errors, which the love of God has shown to over look. Likewise we do.

It is that I wanted to reveal to you what the Literal Christians have done in the same way the Literal Jews had done. That is destroy the Spirit and take away the insights of Christ.

I have shown you that the end of Mark's Gospel as an added bit of religiosity. If not taken literally, you will not feel you have not succeeded if you cannot fulfil those signs of being a Christian.

That Jesus felt you worthy enought to die for, is inspiration enough to live the life he showed you.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:49 pm**

Kendrick, Seedling

You both seem to know a lot on the Bible scriptures so can you show internel/external evidence/proof to me and everyone else that the Bible is authentic and means what it really means? Because if there is no life after death, we are all screwed anyways. This is just a continuim of my "What Happens When You Start To Lose Faith" thread.

Thanks!

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:48 pm**

JesusFreak wrote:Kendrick, Seedling

You both seem to know a lot on the Bible scriptures so can you show internel/external evidence/proof to me and everyone else that the Bible is authentic and means what it really means? Because if there is no life after death, we are all doomed anyways. This is just a continuim of my "What Happens When You Start To Lose Faith" thread.

Thanks!

Knowing bible scriptures is not enough Brian we msut ask God to help us understand what they mean.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:09 am**

Deborah is right, Brian. Ask and you shall receive.

Brian, if you want to discuss these issues with me you are welcome to visit a discussion board I set up for this very purpose - to discuss how you yourself, observe and understand the world.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cf ... Caches=Yes

Otherwise, continue here whittling down your religion to make sense of the new and wondrous discoveries that are found in the Universe.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:37 am**

Deb wrote:Knowing bible scriptures is not enough Brian we msut ask God to help us understand what they mean.

Hi Deb,

If implied within your statement is the idea that one must "listen to what the Spirit tells us" when reading Scripture, then I'd have to disagree with what Christians usually mean by this. Christians may often say the Spirit told them this from a passage they read, and though I'm all for personal experiences, their interpretation can often be wrong and coloured by their own thoughts. From this, you will then have people giving conflicting ideas, and Scripture doesn't become truth, it becomes whatever one wants it to become as long as they say God or the Holy Spirit guided them or told them. Thus, it fails to be an objective standard useful for equipping and teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Yet, at the same time, I have witnessed that Scripture tends to come alive to someone who becomes Christian. I believe such a change must be due to one's having the Holy Spirit.

Now this is not to say only a few people can understand Scripture. The main things are the plain things and evident to all. But those who desire to dig deeper into Scripture, I'd recommend looking into proper hermeneutics vis. methods of interpretation theologians employ.

Kurieuo.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:04 am**

I would like to share why I feel I have been losing faith. I know that the Trinity exists, although it's like I have a dark cloud of doubt over my head. I ask for forgivness of my sins but I still feel unforgiven. I feel God doesn't even hear me. I feel I am without hope

. I try to read the Bible but I get the feeling that it is pointless. I don't know what to do.

- Brian

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:00 am**

Okay, I am having some faith issues right now and it is turning into something monsterous. I know I have a Christian counselor, but I don't see him till next Thursday. Anyways, I have been reading both the Christian point of view and the skeptic/atheist/agnostic point of view. I am feeling like maybe the skeptic/atheist/agnostic point of view is stronger because it has science to back it up while the Christian point of view doesn't really. Debates such as the cruxifiction, ressurection, the Bibles authenticity, and so on. The skeptic/atheist/agnostic writes it off as being a myth/urban legend and I am having those thoughts that it might be true. I mean, we have hundreds of thousands of people praying for Terry Schiavo right now, and NOTHING has happened, hmmm, is it possible God doesn't exist? Hundreds of thousands of people pray for one thing and NOTHING happpens, where is God??? My belief is starting to loose steam and I don't want it to, but it is. The Bible makes good points about testing all things and that "the fool has said there is no God" but were these just made up to sound authentic but weren't? I really need the help guys, I really do and I dont know what is going on but my faith in "God" is getting worse.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:02 pm**

terri isnt dead yet. i trust God to do what He thinks is best.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:45 pm**

Anyways, I have been reading both the Christian point of view and the skeptic/atheist/agnostic point of view. I am feeling like maybe the skeptic/atheist/agnostic point of view is stronger because it has science to back it up while the Christian point of view doesn't really.

Want to quote some examples? Remember that science is the way we observe God's laws in nature, and that it cannot prove anything beyond the physical. For example, how can science prove sentience or self-awareness?

I mean, we have hundreds of thousands of people praying for Terry Schiavo right now, and NOTHING has happened, hmmm, is it possible God doesn't exist? Hundreds of thousands of people pray for one thing and NOTHING happpens, where is God???

How do you know nothing happens? Many people are touched by this, and much good has come from it, for example people reconsidering the value of life, and the power that the judicial branch has over it.

Are you talking about her life being saved? God gives everyone a purpose on earth, when the purpose is fulifilled, He takes you back. Do you think that maybe her purpose has been fulfilled? God answers prayer, and He does perform miracles, for His glory. I can never understand it, because I get hurt in the process too, but God never promised that everything will be all ok all the time. In fact, He told us we will suffer on this earth.