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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:31 pm
by SoCalExile
RickD wrote:
SoCalExile wrote:Rick, are you familiar with the spat between MacArthur and Calvary Chapel over his slander of Chuck Smith at the Strange Fire conference?
No. Enlighten me.
Back in the 80's and 90's, JMac praised Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith. Smith died in 2013, then during the Strange Fire conference he criticized both, and gave a false history of CC as well as a slanderous account of Smith.

CC's response, along with video of JMac's statements:


and this defense from a non-CC guy:

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:41 pm
by DBowling
RickD wrote:Good DBowling. Seems like you're slowly coming around. :lol:
Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic.
You forgot to renounce the underlined part. The life we live reveals whether our faith is authentic? So, if we don't live a good enough life, our faith isn't authentic?
Still sticking with the underlined part. But the issue here isn't "good enough". As we've mentioned a number of times no amount of works is "good enough" to merit salvation... The issue here is the evidence of the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in a person's life.
btw, what exactly is "authentic" faith? And how does it differ from faith?
That's what James 2 is all about.
One of the keys of faith in whatever vs authentic faith is the object of the faith.
The dead faith of the demons is not authentic faith because the object of that faith is intellectual knowledge about Jesus as opposed to the person of Jesus Christ.

Authentic faith is faith whose object is the person of Jesus Christ which manifests itself in good works.

In Christ

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:13 pm
by SoCalExile
James 2 is about service, and justification before men, and has nothing to do with justification before God. In fact, if faith automatically produces works, then James wasted his time writing this to saved brethren:
https://expreacherman.files.wordpress.c ... s-dead.pdf

Pretty sure I said this here before....

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:50 pm
by RickD
DBowling wrote:

Still sticking with the underlined part. But the issue here isn't "good enough". As we've mentioned a number of times no amount of works is "good enough" to merit salvation... The issue here is the evidence of the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in a person's life.
So, who is appointed to judge whether there's enough evidence of the work of the HS in someone's life? Is there a line which indicates saved vs unsaved? For example, if the HS does X in a person's life, then that proves he's saved? But if the HS doesn't quite do X, then the person isn't saved?

Or, is just the slightest good work, evidence of the HS, which means the person is saved?

What about Mormons and other people who do good works, but never trusted Christ? How do the fruit inspectors differentiate between good works done by the Holy Spirit, and good works done just by the person?

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:02 pm
by Philip
Again, if one is saved by faith alone in Christ alone then there's no requirement for works afterwards either, in fact, even a man with no evidence is still saved if he trusted Christ.
Clearly, redundantly, WORKS will gain no one salvation. But the other key truth is, just because one is saved, WE can't always determine whether there in fact are works - ones we would recognize as confirmation of someone's faith. Again, such evidence can also be manifest by those who do not have more than intellectual belief. Especially in a new Christian, we may not see the kinds of confirmation of faith we might expect. So, was their "simple prayer" effective or not? Maybe. Even very likely. But it depends upon their heart and mind toward Christ - which knowledge of, by men, may be nonexistent.

I believe that no saved person will be without some works AFTER salvation, but that this does not mean any one man can necessarily discern them. So if the issue is that we can't always KNOW whether a person is saved or not by our individual fruit searches, then we just need to relax and leave that to the only One Whom CAN discern and intimately knows minds and hearts and even the smallest of what HE considers works.

Here's some LS-type quotes attributed to Paul Washer. Though some statements concern me, much of what he otherwise preaches I can accept:

“the proof or validation of genuine conversion is that the one who professes faith in Christ perseveres in that faith and grows in sanctification throughout the full course of his life. If a person professes faith in Christ and yet falls away or makes no progress in godliness, it does not mean that he has lost his salvation. It reveals that he was never truly converted.”

""If Jesus Christ isn't strong enough to motivate you to live biblically, you don't know Him at all."

""If you are going to walk with Jesus Christ, you are going to be opposed by everything in the world and by the great majority of evangelicals. You're going to be opposed."

"Most people today in our churches are lost, and they demonstrate that they are lost because their entire Christianity is nothing more than, 'They made a decision.'"

"The truth is this: I am a Southern Baptist, and the great majority of Southern Baptists are lost."

"If you have made the good profession, if you claimed to have passed through the gate, if you have received baptism in a public declaration of your faith, and you begin to walk-it doesn't matter how long it appears you're walking in that path-if you step off that path and there's no discipline and you continue on that path, you can have no assurance whatsoever of your salvation. And it is not that you lost your salvation, it's that you're showing now that you never had it. If we would only preach these truths..."

"When you refuse to teach on the radical depravity of men, it is an impossibility that you bring glory to God, His Christ, and His cross, because the cross of Jesus Christ and the glory thereof is most magnified when it's placed in front of the backdrop of our depravity!"

"We have taken the glorious gospel of our blessed God and reduced it down to four spiritual laws and five things God wants you to know, with a little superstitious prayer at the end; and if someone repeats it after us with enough sincerity, we popishly declare them to be born again. We've traded regeneration for decisionism."

"The man who desires to receive the benefits of the gospel must first decide if he is willing to turn over all autonomy and self-government to the Lord of the gospel."

"There are many who believe they are saved and thoroughly Christian because they once prayed a prayer and asked Jesus to come into their hearts. However, they did not continue on in the faith. They never came out of the world, or if they did, they quickly returned. They possess no practical reality of the fear of the Lord. There is no fragrance of divine grace in their lives. They show no outward evidence of inward transformation. There is not even a hint of the divine discipline that God provides to all His children. Yet they stand assured of their salvation because of one decision in their past and their belief that their prayer was truly sincere. No matter how popular such a belief may be, it has no biblical grounds."

"The evidence of a genuine saving work of God in the past is the continuation of that work into the present and until that final day. We are saved if we hold fast to the word that was preached to us [1 Cor. 15:2]. We can have little or no assurance of salvation if such is not the case."

"In the gospel of Jesus, sincere and costly discipleship always accompanies genuine conversion. ... The gospel of Jesus teaches men that a mere profession of faith alone is no sound evidence of salvation."

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:13 pm
by DBowling
RickD wrote:
DBowling wrote:

Still sticking with the underlined part. But the issue here isn't "good enough". As we've mentioned a number of times no amount of works is "good enough" to merit salvation... The issue here is the evidence of the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in a person's life.
So, who is appointed to judge whether there's enough evidence of the work of the HS in someone's life?
Scripture clearly indicates that God is the judge.
Is there a line which indicates saved vs unsaved?
The only distinction that I can find in Scripture is the distinction between none and some.
What about Mormons and other people who do good works, but never trusted Christ? How do the fruit inspectors differentiate between good works done by the Holy Spirit, and good works done just by the person?
Works don't contribute anything to a person's salvation.
So if a person has never put their trust in Jesus then they are not saved and they are not capable of producing the good works which are a result of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

God (the fruit inspector) knows which works are a result of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
But sometimes the difference between wheat and tares is not apparent to those of us who can't look on the heart.

In Christ

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:36 am
by PaulSacramento
RE: Evidence.
God doesn't NEED evidence.
I know that humans need evidence BUT since humans aren't the ones judging, then evidence of the HS is not relevant.
Again, God KNOWS.

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:56 am
by DBowling
PaulSacramento wrote:RE: Evidence.
God doesn't NEED evidence.
I know that humans need evidence BUT since humans aren't the ones judging, then evidence of the HS is not relevant.
Again, God KNOWS.
There are two issues.
1. Who is the person who can judge whether works are a function of faith or not?
The answer is God

2. Who are works an evidence for?
The answer is the world

Works are a result of and indicator of true faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
But that is not the primary function of good works.

The reason we are saved by grace through faith to do good works is that is how God uses his followers to advance his kingdom.
Jesus said the world would know who his disciples were by their love.
Jesus followers are a witness to the world about who Jesus is, and the behavior of Jesus followers directly impact that witness.
The world doesn't have God's perspective on the inward reality of a person's heart. All they can see is the outward behavior of those who claim to follow Jesus.
And the world does make judgments (which may be accurate or inaccurate) regarding the validity of Christianity based on the behavior of Christians.

In Christ

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:28 am
by SoCalExile
Therefore humans can judge one another?
Doesn't Romans 10:6-7 speak agsinst this?

Though LS has a lot in common with the subjects of Romans 10:2-3, and they miss Romans 10:4, 10:8-13.

ETA: If someone doesn't have to do anything to be saved, then how can his salvation be judged by whst he doesn't have to do?

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:35 am
by PaulSacramento
2. Who are works an evidence for?
The answer is the world

Works are a result of and indicator of true faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
But that is not the primary function of good works.

The reason we are saved by grace through faith to do good works is that is how God uses his followers to advance his kingdom.
Jesus said the world would know who his disciples were by their love.
Jesus followers are a witness to the world about who Jesus is, and the behavior of Jesus followers directly impact that witness.
The world doesn't have God's perspective on the inward reality of a person's heart. All they can see is the outward behavior of those who claim to follow Jesus.
And the world does make judgments (which may be accurate or inaccurate) regarding the validity of Christianity based on the behavior of Christians.
The world doesn't see evidence of good works as evidence of the HS.
People do good works and don't believe in any God whatsoever.
We are NOT of THIS world and while we preach we also KNOW that NONE of us convert or being anyone to Christ, it is the Holy Spirit that does that.
It is ego that makes one believe that " I converted that person to Christ".
We preach the Gospel and we do that in deed and words of course BUT out of Love for God not to convert.
Sure, it is great when we set and example and that example leads to someone finding the HS BUT what does that mean to all those of different faiths ( or no faiths) who do so much good works too?
Will people be converted to atheism when an atheist does good work?
Islam when a Muslim does good works?

I am not against doing what the HS compels us to do, that is NOT what this is about.
This is about people, BELIEVERS actually, that want some evidence that another believer is saved.
Well, to that I ask WHY?
Why do YOU need that evidence ?
And HOW does that evidence, which is repeated ( sometimes better) by those that do NOT have the HS, give you any indication of the FAITH one has in Christ ??

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:08 am
by DBowling
PaulSacramento wrote:
2. Who are works an evidence for?
The answer is the world

Works are a result of and indicator of true faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
But that is not the primary function of good works.

The reason we are saved by grace through faith to do good works is that is how God uses his followers to advance his kingdom.
Jesus said the world would know who his disciples were by their love.
Jesus followers are a witness to the world about who Jesus is, and the behavior of Jesus followers directly impact that witness.
The world doesn't have God's perspective on the inward reality of a person's heart. All they can see is the outward behavior of those who claim to follow Jesus.
And the world does make judgments (which may be accurate or inaccurate) regarding the validity of Christianity based on the behavior of Christians.
The world doesn't see evidence of good works as evidence of the HS.
True
People do good works and don't believe in any God whatsoever.
Yes and no
People who don't know God do works that many consider to be good.
People who don't know God are incapable of doing works that are initiated by the indwelling Holy Spirit because they don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
We are NOT of THIS world and while we preach we also KNOW that NONE of us convert or being anyone to Christ, it is the Holy Spirit that does that.
Yup...
But God does use his followers as witnesses and representatives.
It is ego that makes one believe that " I converted that person to Christ".
As you pointed out, I can't convert anyone. That is the job of the Holy Spirit.
My job is to submit to the Holy Spirit and let him use me as he wishes.
We preach the Gospel and we do that in deed and words of course BUT out of Love for God not to convert.
Yes and no...
The great Commission tells us to go into all the world and make disciples.
I don't think that a desire to submit to and be used by the Holy Spirit to make disciples is a bad thing.
I am not against doing what the HS compels us to do, that is NOT what this is about.
This is about people, BELIEVERS actually, that want some evidence that another believer is saved.
Who is asserting that this is what LS is all about?
That is one of the anti-LS strawmen that keeps popping up its ugly head repeatedly in this thread.
Please show me where LS is all about believers judging other believers.

The most frequent judgement of believers by other believers that I see in this thread is believers misrepresenting other believers and then judging them as "abberant" based on misrepresentations that aren't even true.

In Christ

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:56 am
by DBowling
SoCalExile wrote:Therefore humans can judge one another?
People do make personal judgements about one another... all the time
Is Donald really a conservative?
Is Bernie really a democrat?
People draw many different conclusions.
Sometimes those judgements are correct, sometimes they aren't.

It is within this context that Jesus says
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Here, Jesus recognizes that the world will make 'judgments' about his disciples based on how his disciples behave.

These judgments of the world have nothing to do with whether or not someone is actually a disciple.
These judgments of the world have to with whether the behavior of a person enables the world to recognize that person as a disciple of Christ.

In Christ

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:14 am
by RickD
DBowling,

Please define disciple. And, can one be a believer(be saved) without being a disciple?

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:44 am
by DBowling
RickD wrote:DBowling,

Please define disciple. And, can one be a believer(be saved) without being a disciple?
I define disciple as a follower of Jesus
I define a believer as a person who has put their trust in Jesus.

I personally consider the two terms to be equivalent.
My dad considers 'disciple' to be a level of commitment beyond that of a believer.

In Christ

Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:07 am
by SoCalExile
DBowling wrote:
SoCalExile wrote:Therefore humans can judge one another?
People do make personal judgements about one another... all the time
Is Donald really a conservative?
Is Bernie really a democrat?
People draw many different conclusions.
Sometimes those judgements are correct, sometimes they aren't.

It is within this context that Jesus says
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Here, Jesus recognizes that the world will make 'judgments' about his disciples based on how his disciples behave.

These judgments of the world have nothing to do with whether or not someone is actually a disciple.
These judgments of the world have to with whether the behavior of a person enables the world to recognize that person as a disciple of Christ.

In Christ
Good Lord, you've downright ignored the scripture I posted, to the point of cutting it out because it contradicts your point.

Let me spell it out:
Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


Here's some more that contradict your point:
1 Samuel 16:7
Jeremiah 17:9
James 4:11-12
James 2:12-13
Romans 2:1-3
Luke 6:37-42
Matthew 6:1-7
James 2:1-5
John 7:24