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Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:57 am
by PaulSacramento
Audie wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Audie wrote:Hortator wrote:Audie wrote:
Not saying this just to be tendentious or provocative, but the supposed behaviour of said God as described in the bible is violent and disproportionate. Kill someone for glancing about; kill babies
for having been born first.
I may be able to help you with God's character, but first, which verses are these you are citing?
Lots wife v Destruction of Sodom; Pharoah v Moses
I thought you didn't believe the bible...
I read it as a historical novel. You didnt read my post, for content:
the supposed behaviour of said God
As for "believe it" what does that even mean? Serious question.
Well, the thing is that you CAN read it anyway you want BUT that doesn't make it THAT.
You must read the bible in the way it was intended to be read by those that wrote it.
The bible is a collection of books of different literary genres, you can't read the whole thing the same way.
And by believe I mean that I didn't think you believed that what was written to happen in the bible, actually happened.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:59 am
by Audie
PaulSacramento wrote:Audie wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Audie wrote:Hortator wrote:
I may be able to help you with God's character, but first, which verses are these you are citing?
Lots wife v Destruction of Sodom; Pharoah v Moses
I thought you didn't believe the bible...
I read it as a historical novel. You didnt read my post, for content:
the supposed behaviour of said God
As for "believe it" what does that even mean? Serious question.
Well, the thing is that you CAN read it anyway you want BUT that doesn't make it THAT
It would be marvellously naive to suggest otherwise.
You must read the bible in the way it was intended to be read by those that wrote it.
One can
attempt to do that.
The bible is a collection of books of different literary genres, you can't read the whole thing the same way.
Again naive to think otherwise.
And by believe I mean that I didn't think you believed that what was written to happen in the bible, actually happened
.
What is
actually written? Samson actually needed long hair, Lots wife really turned to a pillar of salt, the tower of babel is a literal story.
How do you suppose ti was determined, btw, that the highest hills went under 15 cubits of water? Noah navigated to them, and took a sounding?
Or battles inwhich an even number of thousands were killed. That cant be literally true.
so by what percent is it off? Is it still what actually happened if it is off by 50%?
I doubt you think what is written is the bible is what actually happened either, we would merely vary by percents.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:17 am
by melanie
.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:30 am
by PaulSacramento
melanie wrote:Paul, if it's coherent with God,then its nonsensical.
According to who?..
The guy holding the cards trying to make his way home
What about the guy with more to lose but a shitter hand.
The biggest lesson I have learnt is that we mean [poop]
I don't lean that disrespectfully, but rather the exact opposite
Respect given where respect is due
They ride this craziness with me xo
I am sorry, but I don't understand what you mean...
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:36 am
by PaulSacramento
What is actually written? Samson actually needed long hair, Lots wife really turned to a pillar of salt, the tower of babel is a literal story.
If you believe in the supernatural, and the writers did, none of that is implausible.
How do you suppose ti was determined, btw, that the highest hills went under 15 cubits of water? Noah navigated to them, and took a sounding?
While some would argue that it was inspired writing, the view of those that take Genesis under the literary genre that it is, view it as a description of how massive the flood is RATHER than the literal and concrete measurment of the depth of the flood. We still use that literary device today.
Or battles inwhich an even number of thousands were killed. That cant be literally true.
so by what percent is it off? Is it still what actually happened if it is off by 50%?
The writers of the ancient world cared less for exact amounts and more about the impact the number had on their audience. We do that now too, very rarely are there exact number given in wars and disasters.
I doubt you think what is written is the bible is what actually happened either, we would merely vary by percents.
Actually, I believe that everything that was written happened.
That is a FAR CRY from saying that I agree with everyone's INTERPRETATION of what happened in the bible.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:24 pm
by abelcainsbrother
Audie wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Audie wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Audie wrote:
Lots wife v Destruction of Sodom; Pharoah v Moses
I thought you didn't believe the bible...
I read it as a historical novel. You didnt read my post, for content:
the supposed behaviour of said God
As for "believe it" what does that even mean? Serious question.
Well, the thing is that you CAN read it anyway you want BUT that doesn't make it THAT
It would be marvellously naive to suggest otherwise.
You must read the bible in the way it was intended to be read by those that wrote it.
One can
attempt to do that.
The bible is a collection of books of different literary genres, you can't read the whole thing the same way.
Again naive to think otherwise.
And by believe I mean that I didn't think you believed that what was written to happen in the bible, actually happened
.
What is
actually written? Samson actually needed long hair, Lots wife really turned to a pillar of salt, the tower of babel is a literal story.
How do you suppose ti was determined, btw, that the highest hills went under 15 cubits of water? Noah navigated to them, and took a sounding?
Or battles inwhich an even number of thousands were killed. That cant be literally true.
so by what percent is it off? Is it still what actually happened if it is off by 50%?
I doubt you think what is written is the bible is what actually happened either, we would merely vary by percents.
You must think our God is weak or something but he can perform miracles anytime he chooses to ,our God can speak and it happens,just imagine God creating this entire Universe and everything in it out of nothing and it would be quite easy to do the things you doubt when you read the bible and most of the time he won't perform miracles because of our faith in what he can do.It is us that restrict God,not him. Sometimes as Jesus would go to town to town there would be unbelief in certian towns so he would take them outside town and try to build up their faith first.Jesus did not just go around healing everybody it is and has always been our faith that moves God.It is our lack of faith that can restrict God from performing miracles.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:49 am
by Audie
Xx
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:52 am
by Audie
PaulSacramento wrote:What is actually written? Samson actually needed long hair, Lots wife really turned to a pillar of salt, the tower of babel is a literal story.
If you believe in the supernatural, and the writers did, none of that is implausible.
How do you suppose ti was determined, btw, that the highest hills went under 15 cubits of water? Noah navigated to them, and took a sounding?
While some would argue that it was inspired writing, the view of those that take Genesis under the literary genre that it is, view it as a description of how massive the flood is RATHER than the literal and concrete measurment of the depth of the flood. We still use that literary device today.
Or battles inwhich an even number of thousands were killed. That cant be literally true.
so by what percent is it off? Is it still what actually happened if it is off by 50%?
The writers of the ancient world cared less for exact amounts and more about the impact the number had on their audience. We do that now too, very rarely are there exact number given in wars and disasters.
I doubt you think what is written is the bible is what actually happened either, we would merely vary by percents.
Actually, I believe that everything that was written happened.
That is a FAR CRY from saying that I agree with everyone's INTERPRETATION of what happened in the bible.
Nothing is impossible with assumed supernatural intervention. It doth of course betimes
lead down the rabbit hole of "embedded age" and other forms of militant stupidity.
A more respectful reading of the collected folk wisdom of a people might avoid such.
Not to get fooloshly technical, but you know good and well that having the highest hill
under 15 cubits of water , whether interpreted to mean Everest at present height, "flood"
height b4 it shot up, or some middle eastern hill, it is just a way of telling a story.
Going under by 15 cubits did not happen.
That plain statement in the bible is not true.
My take is that a thinking person will see that however read,
the bible is not affected; It is by varying amounts stating things
that are not accurate.
Personally, I think I read it with more real respect and understanding, seeing it as
a historical novel full of magic realism,than
is the case with those who read it as being about an actual god.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:17 am
by Audie
abelcainsbrother wrote:Audie wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Audie wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:
I thought you didn't believe the bible...
I read it as a historical novel. You didnt read my post, for content:
the supposed behaviour of said God
As for "believe it" what does that even mean? Serious question.
Well, the thing is that you CAN read it anyway you want BUT that doesn't make it THAT
It would be marvellously naive to suggest otherwise.
You must read the bible in the way it was intended to be read by those that wrote it.
One can
attempt to do that.
The bible is a collection of books of different literary genres, you can't read the whole thing the same way.
Again naive to think otherwise.
And by believe I mean that I didn't think you believed that what was written to happen in the bible, actually happened
.
What is
actually written? Samson actually needed long hair, Lots wife really turned to a pillar of salt, the tower of babel is a literal story.
How do you suppose ti was determined, btw, that the highest hills went under 15 cubits of water? Noah navigated to them, and took a sounding?
Or battles inwhich an even number of thousands were killed. That cant be literally true.
so by what percent is it off? Is it still what actually happened if it is off by 50%?
I doubt you think what is written is the bible is what actually happened either, we would merely vary by percents.
You must think our God is weak or something but he can perform miracles anytime he chooses to ,our God can speak and it happens,just imagine God creating this entire Universe and everything in it out of nothing and it would be quite easy to do the things you doubt when you read the bible and most of the time he won't perform miracles because of our faith in what he can do.It is us that restrict God,not him. Sometimes as Jesus would go to town to town there would be unbelief in certian towns so he would take them outside town and try to build up their faith first.Jesus did not just go around healing everybody it is and has always been our faith that moves God.It is our lack of faith that can restrict God from performing miracles.
The impression I get from your rather disconnected reply is that you did not understand anything I said.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:26 pm
by Storyteller
Duggie70 wrote:You got me with that one, Kurieuo. Got me good.
Wanted to quote the question you posed about the victim being raped who prayed but on kindle, wouldnt do it.
I was 17, a virgin. Raped vaginally and anally. He later killed himself. What breaks my heart is that two families lost their children that day.
Where was God? When I was so scared, so angry, so unbelieving? He was there.
This is a violent world, it isnt fair. It can hurt.
God didnt rape me, He didnt orchestrate it. Life, chance, randomness, man did.
God gave me hope.
And love, and grace.
And life.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:27 pm
by Storyteller
Dont blame God for mans evil.
I dont.
I love Him for it.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:01 pm
by Audie
Storyteller wrote:Duggie70 wrote:You got me with that one, Kurieuo. Got me good.
Wanted to quote the question you posed about the victim being raped who prayed but on kindle, wouldnt do it.
I was 17, a virgin. Raped vaginally and anally. He later killed himself. What breaks my heart is that two families lost their children that day.
Where was God? When I was so scared, so angry, so unbelieving? He was there.
This is a violent world, it isnt fair. It can hurt.
God didnt rape me, He didnt orchestrate it. Life, chance, randomness, man did.
God gave me hope.
And love, and grace.
And life.
Story and I have way more in common than we'd care to. I was 5 yrs older.
I've no idea what may have happened in the guy's life, after.
Neither of us blames anyone other than the men involved.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:09 pm
by Storyteller
Do you wonder, ever?
Im crying, now, never thought id do this here.
We dont blame them but blamed ourselves. Why?
You and I, sisters.
Through something evil.
You and I, sisters, in love.
In pain.
Anger,
Regret,
Never though, hate.
If you give in to hate, thats what not having God does.
Just imagine... he may have taken so much but what if he gave me God?
Min...
You know what you mean to me... knock down the wall and sit on the bricks, I did.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:26 pm
by Storyteller
I used to listen to Christians defending God, praising Him, thanking Him for thier suffering. I didnt get it. I didnt get God.
Why do you do it, put me through it?
Epiphany.
He got me through it.
And, always will.
The catch?
Trust.
I trust God. Trust its true.
Give me one solid reason not to. I spent long enough doubting and not trusting. Convince me im wrong.
Re: Answering an atheist
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:13 pm
by Audie
Story, you have such a good heart.