The biblical flood date

[crochet1949]

Am I the only one who notices that "conversations" between Audie and ACB, go absolutely nowhere?

Isn't the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result?

I SO agree with you.

[Audie]

Am I the only one who notices that "conversations" between Audie and ACB, go absolutely nowhere?

Isn't the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result?

I SO agree with you.

Prease identify any conversation here that has been substantively different.

[crochet1949]

Am I the only one who notices that "conversations" between Audie and ACB, go absolutely nowhere?

Isn't the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result?

I SO agree with you.

Prease identify any conversation here that has been substantively different.

Audie -- that's what we mean. You are both set in your own beliefs which are polar opposites -- Because you each have opposing views of Scripture. When looked upon closely -- they both Do come to the same conclusions.

[Audie]

Am I the only one who notices that "conversations" between Audie and ACB, go absolutely nowhere?

Isn't the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result?

I SO agree with you.

Prease identify any conversation here that has been substantively different.

Audie -- that's what we mean. You are both set in your own beliefs which are polar opposites -- Because you each have opposing views of Scripture. When looked upon closely -- they both Do come to the same conclusions.

Oh that is such nonsense, honestly.

It is not a " belief" that ice floats. It has nothing to with scrip.

Ab is cornered into denying the polar ice
and all other glaciers would float off in a global flood.

Surely you see that is silly.

[crochet1949]

The Big question Is -- was the flood Local or Global. The Local flood concept isn't nearly as bad / destructive as the results of the global.
The even Bigger question is -- does the spirit world Really exist. And it's interesting because people have no problem recognizing the god/ goddesses in Mythology // all the various cultures have their various 'gods' that they worship in some way. So Why is accepting the God of the Bible such a problem.
And people Also don't like to acknowledge 'sin' or that there are consequences To sin.
And, does it really Matter When the flood happened? Only to the extent of how long mankind has been around and how he got here.

[crochet1949]

Audie -- actually it's sometimes difficult to distinguish who is saying what. In a global flood --it would depend on the topography of any given area. In the beginning stages of Any flooded area -- the geographic area is going to be in One shape and during and after , the area Is Damaged depending on how swift the waters are moving and what has fallen into the waters and since we're talking about Lots of Flooding -- there's going to be a Lot of stuff in and under water that normally Isn't there. And That causes damage to the landscape. Bridges / roads get washed away, etc. Cars, parts of homes, etc. end up in flood waters.
Okay -- as ice melts it becomes Water and That is what Also causes Lots of damage.
The Titanic went down because part of an ice burg ran across the side of the ship. The Tip of any iceberg tells a person there's much more under water.
This has everything to do with Scripture because that's where we find the story Of the great flood.

[abelcainsbrother]

Yes, ice floats but try this experiment : Take a cupful of ice cubes from your freezer,pour them into a dry metal or stoneware bowl,and place the bowl in the freezer for a couple of hours.Remove the bowl,set it on the counter,and quickly pour a glass of tap water over the ice in the bowl.You will find that the ice will remain stuck to the bottom of the bowl,completely submerged under the water until the bowl's surface warms enough to melt the bond.If you transfer this concept to a mountain glacier,it takes an extended amount of time for the bedrock to warm or for water to seep under it to dissolve a much more extensive bond.

[Audie]

Yes, ice floats but try this experiment : Take a cupful of ice cubes from your freezer,pour them into a dry metal or stoneware bowl,and place the bowl in the freezer for a couple of hours.Remove the bowl,set it on the counter,and quickly pour a glass of tap water over the ice in the bowl.You will find that the ice will remain stuck to the bottom of the bowl,completely submerged under the water until the bowl's surface warms enough to melt the bond.If you transfer this concept to a mountain glacier,it takes an extended amount of time for the bedrock to warm or for water to seep under it to dissolve a much more extensive bond.

This after you agreed the ice moves, meaning it aint stuck????

But ok..


First, a matter of scale.
Sure, it will hold an icecube down. But scale is why we dont get 777 size aircraft built
of balsa wood with rubber band power. Or giant ants like horses.

Lets calculate the upward force on five miles of ice.

"Buoyed by a force equal to weight of water displaced".

A cubic foot of water is weighs 5.2 lbs more than a cubic ft of ice.

So in 5 miles of ice, the force will be 5.2 x 5280 lbs per square ft.

The weak (it is no super glue) strength of the ice frozen to rock is not going to
hold 25,000 lbs per sq ft. Perhaps if one were to try lifting a 25000 lb safe
with a piece of ice frozen to it? I dont believe you'd want that over your head.

So no, I think you can see freezing it down wont work.

But then you already agreed the ice ice moving; not stuck at all.

The ice is in motion, sliding downhill. Right? (Here is where you say "yes"; dont you forgst, now)

So, even if it were stuck, which it is not, it would still float if flooded.

Side thought..people rather silly and ignorant ones, true.. but some think
thst such as the marine rocks in say, Kansas are left by the flood.

Now IF there had been a flood, AND God miracled the ice so it dont float,
whh isnt there the same rock and fossil assortments found in a " flood layer"
in the ice? Just a side note for the noah -flood fossils on everest grpup.

But never mind. A force of hundreds of pounds per square inch assures that
ice, thst was not stuck anyway, will not stay down.

So now what?

[Audie]

To interject a thought or two -- waters came Up from under the ground And it also rained from above. Atmospheric conditions were a Lot different before than after the world-wide flood. And, yes, I DO believe it was a world-wide flood Because of the reasons For the global flooding.
And, yes, ice Can float. Fill a glass with ice and add a beverage -- the ice does float -- and depending on how much ice is in the container -- some of it could possibly get stuck at the bottom of the container because there's More material / ice Above it. And depending on the temp --it might Stay ice for a Long time or it could melt depending on the environment.

If there's a global flood -- Everywhere flooded -- where is the ice supposed to be able to float away To. It Will gradually Melt -- just like being in a snow blizzard -- tons of snow falls -- again and again -- it piles up -- Eventually it Melts away -- as the temperature gets warmer - many times causing local flooding.

One more comment -- volcanoes erupt and produce lava and Ash -- and that Can produce a dust-like layer on the ground and on everything around the area. Part of the result of the underground areas being moved around could cause earthquakes and volcanos. Which is what happened as the waters way underground were being brought up to the surface.

Finely layered ice, each layer being one year, piled up in places more than five miles, over a hundred thousanc years

A global flood would float it off. Lift mountsin glacirrs out of their valleys.

No glacier would be more thsn ssy 4500 yrs old.

The fact stsring back from thosr ice cores is, they are a whole lot older than that.

An intellectual exercise for you and ab: indtesd of ttying to inveng ways to keep
2 plus 2 from being 4, think about what those facts mean.

[Audie]

Audie -- actually it's sometimes difficult to distinguish who is saying what. In a global flood --it would depend on the topography of any given area. In the beginning stages of Any flooded area -- the geographic area is going to be in One shape and during and after , the area Is Damaged depending on how swift the waters are moving and what has fallen into the waters and since we're talking about Lots of Flooding -- there's going to be a Lot of stuff in and under water that normally Isn't there. And That causes damage to the landscape. Bridges / roads get washed away, etc. Cars, parts of homes, etc. end up in flood waters.
Okay -- as ice melts it becomes Water and That is what Also causes Lots of damage.
The Titanic went down because part of an ice burg ran across the side of the ship. The Tip of any iceberg tells a person there's much more under water.
This has everything to do with Scripture because that's where we find the story Of the great flood.

Regarding "didtinguish who is saying what" there are, yes, a lot of versions.

But really it comes down to 3:

Flood is just s story

Flood was local

Flood was global.

Ab says global; I simply pointed out that the ancient ice shows
there was no global flood.

Like fresh petunias show no herd of million bison just went thru the garden.

Its a super simple thing.

[abelcainsbrother]

Yes, ice floats but try this experiment : Take a cupful of ice cubes from your freezer,pour them into a dry metal or stoneware bowl,and place the bowl in the freezer for a couple of hours.Remove the bowl,set it on the counter,and quickly pour a glass of tap water over the ice in the bowl.You will find that the ice will remain stuck to the bottom of the bowl,completely submerged under the water until the bowl's surface warms enough to melt the bond.If you transfer this concept to a mountain glacier,it takes an extended amount of time for the bedrock to warm or for water to seep under it to dissolve a much more extensive bond.

This after you agreed the ice moves, meaning it aint stuck????

But ok..


First, a matter of scale.
Sure, it will hold an icecube down. But scale is why we dont get 777 size aircraft built
of balsa wood with rubber band power. Or giant ants like horses.

Lets calculate the upward force on five miles of ice.

"Buoyed by a force equal to weight of water displaced".

A cubic foot of water is weighs 5.2 lbs more than a cubic ft of ice.

So in 5 miles of ice, the force will be 5.2 x 5280 lbs per square ft.

The weak (it is no super glue) strength of the ice frozen to rock is not going to
hold 25,000 lbs per sq ft. Perhaps if one were to try lifting a 25000 lb safe
with a piece of ice frozen to it? I dont believe you'd want that over your head.

So no, I think you can see freezing it down wont work.

But then you already agreed the ice ice moving; not stuck at all.

The ice is in motion, sliding downhill. Right? (Here is where you say "yes"; dont you forgst, now)

So, even if it were stuck, which it is not, it would still float if flooded.

Side thought..people rather silly and ignorant ones, true.. but some think
thst such as the marine rocks in say, Kansas are left by the flood.

Now IF there had been a flood, AND God miracled the ice so it dont float,
whh isnt there the same rock and fossil assortments found in a " flood layer"
in the ice? Just a side note for the noah -flood fossils on everest grpup.

But never mind. A force of hundreds of pounds per square inch assures that
ice, thst was not stuck anyway, will not stay down.

So now what?

I think we know that it has pretty much stayed in place for millions of years,so it has not moved around so much like you imply,it has pretty much remained in place. Also at different times at the bottom depending on the climate there are times when it could be more floating than frozen to the bedrock. I understand the polar ice is a problem for a world wide flood which is why I have been dealing with it. Also this flood model is not the same as what YEC's typically use for a world wide flood. We do not agree the flood would produce as many fossils as they do,because they would have just decayed away. We believe the vast amount of fossils in the layers of strata have nothing to do with this world,but the former world.Now I know this might make YEC's cringe,but this is a different world wide flood model.I have made my case for now. I might explain it out in a more technical way sometime,but now now.

[crochet1949]

Okay -- Audie -- let's try this from a slightly different perspective -- Why did the flood happen in the first place. Genesis tells us. So what does the book of Genesis tell us about it.

[crochet1949]

acb -- we know the world was different Before the flood -- and because of That -- it pretty much Had to be global for the world to have been that much different before hand. So -- are you referring to the Gap theory or what? The Gap being -- supposedly between the 1st two verses of Genesis 1 ?!

[Audie]

Yes, ice floats but try this experiment : Take a cupful of ice cubes from your freezer,pour them into a dry metal or stoneware bowl,and place the bowl in the freezer for a couple of hours.Remove the bowl,set it on the counter,and quickly pour a glass of tap water over the ice in the bowl.You will find that the ice will remain stuck to the bottom of the bowl,completely submerged under the water until the bowl's surface warms enough to melt the bond.If you transfer this concept to a mountain glacier,it takes an extended amount of time for the bedrock to warm or for water to seep under it to dissolve a much more extensive bond.

This after you agreed the ice moves, meaning it aint stuck????

But ok..


First, a matter of scale.
Sure, it will hold an icecube down. But scale is why we dont get 777 size aircraft built
of balsa wood with rubber band power. Or giant ants like horses.

Lets calculate the upward force on five miles of ice.

"Buoyed by a force equal to weight of water displaced".

A cubic foot of water is weighs 5.2 lbs more than a cubic ft of ice.

So in 5 miles of ice, the force will be 5.2 x 5280 lbs per square ft.

The weak (it is no super glue) strength of the ice frozen to rock is not going to
hold 25,000 lbs per sq ft. Perhaps if one were to try lifting a 25000 lb safe
with a piece of ice frozen to it? I dont believe you'd want that over your head.

So no, I think you can see freezing it down wont work.

But then you already agreed the ice ice moving; not stuck at all.

The ice is in motion, sliding downhill. Right? (Here is where you say "yes"; dont you forgst, now)

So, even if it were stuck, which it is not, it would still float if flooded.

Side thought..people rather silly and ignorant ones, true.. but some think
thst such as the marine rocks in say, Kansas are left by the flood.

Now IF there had been a flood, AND God miracled the ice so it dont float,
whh isnt there the same rock and fossil assortments found in a " flood layer"
in the ice? Just a side note for the noah -flood fossils on everest grpup.

But never mind. A force of hundreds of pounds per square inch assures that
ice, thst was not stuck anyway, will not stay down.

So now what?

I think we know that it has pretty much stayed in place for millions of years,so it has not moved around so much like you imply,it has pretty much remained in place. Also at different times at the bottom depending on the climate there are times when it could be more floating than frozen to the bedrock. I understand the polar ice is a problem for a world wide flood which is why I have been dealing with it. Also this flood model is not the same as what YEC's typically use for a world wide flood. We do not agree the flood would produce as many fossils as they do,because they would have just decayed away. We believe the vast amount of fossils in the layers of strata have nothing to do with this world,but the former world.Now I know this might make YEC's cringe,but this is a different world wide flood model.I have made my case for now. I might explain it out in a more technical way sometime,but now now.

No, it hss not stayed in place for millions of years. False.
Please admit you sre wrong.
The oldest ice is well under a million years.
Your statement is false.

Can you admit that?

Now, aside from antarctica, there is greenland, and many mountain glaciers.
All glaciers move. They aint stuck.

Wont make a difference if they were, remember?

There is no physical way a glacirr could survive being submerged, and you know it.

Good that you notice it is a problem. You are not dealing with it tho. You are
making things up and changing the subject.

Or as my father in law put it, "thrashing about likd a foul-hooked alligator".

Seriously, man up. This is getting shameful.

[Audie]

Okay -- Audie -- let's try this from a slightly different perspective -- Why did the flood happen in the first place. Genesis tells us. So what does the book of Genesis tell us about it.

Uh, no. The story is a cautionary tale. I cannot say why it "happened" as it did not "happen."