Evidence for God from Science

Jac3510 wrote:

Audie wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: I thought you liked my long writings?

Both you and jac have, betimes, a bent for tugid hyperverboisty.

Mine is surely longer than Jac's.

Be nice, now.

It's not the size of the post that matters.

At least, that's what I keep telling myself.
because my posts are usually way to large
edit:
I decided to edit my longer post to cut the size down a bit since Audie apparently thinks its too long, and if she so thinks, then perhaps others will, too. So for the benefit of the board:

• As for my own thoughts on the subject . . .
  
  I think this thread has demonstrated the sad division of the church around healing. I fully grant that there are charlatans. There always have been. Look to Simon Magus in the NT for an old example. So fakers and abusers have been around since the beginning of the church. Further, I take it that it goes back in Judaism long before that, because the Jewish response to Jesus wasn't that he was faking His miracles but rather that He did so by a demonic power. That suggests that they were acquainted with miracle workers in their day. So the question isn't whether or not some people have received any sort of healing. The question, as far as I see it, is the source of healing, how and where it comes from, who it comes through, and its purposes.
  
  So first off, again, I am not a cessationist. Anybody who says that there was a gift of healing in the NT times that is no longer active today is, I think, just not taking the text very seriously. I tend to think that they are reading their experience back into it (pretty standard eisogesis--it's amazing how easy it is to do). The text Crochet quoted I think gives us good biblical reason to think any such gifts are still active. Since the perfect has not yet come, then such gifts have not ceased.
  
  I think the mistake most people make here is that they equate "the gifts of healing" with what the Apostles did. And I would just ask for any textual evidence for that--as if Peter or Paul had "the gift of healing" described in 1 Cor 12. Beyond the superficial similarity that Peter and Paul healed and Paul mentions "healing," what basis is there to say that Paul has the same idea in mind?
  
  I think not. A worthwhile textual note in 1 Cor 12:9, 28, 29 is that that Paul does not speak of "the gift of healing" but rather "gifts of healing." Its in the plural. In all instances that Paul talks of so-called "the gift of healing," he always uses it in the plural. Never the singular. In fact, nowhere in all the Bible do we have a mention of a "gift of healing." Further, in the context, we see that Paul talks about a person receiving a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom or a prophecy, etc. But the gifts of healing and the workings (also plural) of miracles . . . seems to me like Paul isn't talking about some single, abiding gift that someone uses whenever they want. For instance, I don't think someone has "the" gift of tongues, where they can exercise this gift whenever they want. Or let's use one a little less divisive. I doubt that someone has "the" gift of prophecy, where someone can just up and prophesy whenever they want. Rather, when God gives them a word, they speak it.
  
  And I think it's that way with gifts of healing. Each instance of healing is a gift, which means there is no specific ability to give out whereby one can heal whomever they choose whenever they want. If God heals through me in this case, I was given the gift to heal in that case. I may never heal again, just like there were people who spoke only one prophecy (which was a gift, obviously) and never spoke it again. So having said that, I think both cessationists and pentecostals are wrong when they try to identify someone with this special gift that they can sort of whip out whenever they like. Always, in every case, it is God who works through a particular person at a particular time in a particular way. Sometimes it is to share a prophecy. Other times it is to demonstrate a great act of faith. Sometimes it is to share a tongue. Other times it is to heal.
  
  And that gets into the idea that, when God heals, it wasn't the person that healed but God who did it by prayer. Now, I don't deny that sometimes God answers a prayer and heals someone. But I don't think that's the only way God heals. I think the video linked is a great example of something I've seen many, many times. I think that there are times that God uses a specific individual to heal someone else. No one--certainly no one in my denomination--would say that the person is the one who did the healing on account of their gift anymore than someone would say that a person prophesied on their own power or any other such thing. Apply that to ANY gift, and I think you'll see that, in my view anyway, it is silly to object to a gift of healing because it was God and not the person that heals. We recognize that in ALL gifts. But are there some people who lay their hands on someone and ask God to heal, and God does? Absolutely. Just as there are, again, some people who just have this amazing faith. But all Christians have faith! Yes, but God grants as a gift some a special measure in some specific circumstance, and that for the edification of the church.
  
  And that last line is important. I don't think that gifts of healing are given by and large for evangelistic purposes. And this gets at some of the arguments above about why people who God uses this way aren't out there being famous. It's done for the edification of the Body of Christ. I'm not saying, to be clear, that people can't be and aren't saved by witnessing such a miracle. Some have been. But look at the NT itself. That's not what causes people to believe. But it is a way for God to manifest His power in the Church and for her sake. It's a present day reminder that God is the Savior of the whole person, not just this ghosty thing we call a soul. Sometimes, God demonstrates His power over death even today in this fallen world, which is but a taste of the final victory of death we will all see "when the perfect comes."
  
  I think that's a much more consistent view of the gifts of healing. I think the other two extremes--cessationism on one hand and pentecostalism on the other--simply don't do justice to the text as it is written or to biblical theology more generally.

Better?

At least you are trying.

jpbg33 wrote:I don't mind you not agreeing completely with me, but what part is biblically wrong with what I said?

by the way I am agreeing with you on this subject.

didn't think I would agree with you or abelcainsbrother on any thing but I do mostly on this.

Why wouldn't you agree with me? If it says it in the bible? I believe it and I do my best to reject doctrines of men like the gifts died out when the apostles died,etc. I believe the bible,every born again Christian has the same Holy Spirit Jesus had in them and so we do still have gifts of the Spirit and I've seen some demonstrated that convinced me,like getting a word of knowledge,etc,seeing a demon get cast out of a person,etc.I've seen a demon tremble at the name of Jesus like we read about in the bible.They are scared and afraid of Jesus,they know who he is. And after seeing a demon get cast out of a person I know that it makes no difference world wide. You could be in China and have a demon possessed person and that demon will respond to the name of Jesus even if you said it in English there,they know who he is world wide.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:I don't mind you not agreeing completely with me, but what part is biblically wrong with what I said?

by the way I am agreeing with you on this subject.

didn't think I would agree with you or abelcainsbrother on any thing but I do mostly on this.

Why wouldn't you agree with me? If it says it in the bible? I believe it and I do my best to reject doctrines of men like the gifts died out when the apostles died,etc. I believe the bible,every born again Christian has the same Holy Spirit Jesus had in them and so we do still have gifts of the Spirit and I've seen some demonstrated that convinced me,like getting a word of knowledge,etc,seeing a demon get cast out of a person,etc.I've seen a demon tremble at the name of Jesus like we read about in the bible.They are scared and afraid of Jesus,they know who he is. And after seeing a demon get cast out of a person I know that it makes no difference world wide. You could be in China and have a demon possessed person and that demon will respond to the name of Jesus even if you said it in English there,they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

Demon possession is a whole different subject. And you're right -- 'in the name of Jesus' -- in Scripture -- Jesus Christ casts out demons. And on a certain occasion in the New Testament some of the disciples or apostles were given power to caste our demons and given other powers -- but that was not an everyday 'thing'.

For some reason -- the RCC has gotten a reputation for performing exorcisms. Sometimes the 'patient' doesn't survive.

And there is also demonic oppression experienced by people.

God's Word DOES warn people Not to mess around with the 'evil spirit' world. It's Dangerous.

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:I don't mind you not agreeing completely with me, but what part is biblically wrong with what I said?

by the way I am agreeing with you on this subject.

didn't think I would agree with you or abelcainsbrother on any thing but I do mostly on this.

Why wouldn't you agree with me? If it says it in the bible? I believe it and I do my best to reject doctrines of men like the gifts died out when the apostles died,etc. I believe the bible,every born again Christian has the same Holy Spirit Jesus had in them and so we do still have gifts of the Spirit and I've seen some demonstrated that convinced me,like getting a word of knowledge,etc,seeing a demon get cast out of a person,etc.I've seen a demon tremble at the name of Jesus like we read about in the bible.They are scared and afraid of Jesus,they know who he is. And after seeing a demon get cast out of a person I know that it makes no difference world wide. You could be in China and have a demon possessed person and that demon will respond to the name of Jesus even if you said it in English there,they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

How can it not be a gift? Sure we have the gifts of the Spirit,but why would we consider casting out demons not a gift? It would be a gift by the Holy Spirit just like the other gifts.I mentioned a word of knowledge first as a way we can know the gifts are still here and it is a gift of the Spirit. But as far as casting out demons I just threw that in as an example of a way we can know God's word is true.And since I've seen a demon get cast out I know demon possession is real and that Christians can cast out demons even today.It is important though that demons do tremble at the name of Jesus,they are scared and afraid of him and they know who he is world wide.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:I don't mind you not agreeing completely with me, but what part is biblically wrong with what I said?

by the way I am agreeing with you on this subject.

didn't think I would agree with you or abelcainsbrother on any thing but I do mostly on this.

Why wouldn't you agree with me? If it says it in the bible? I believe it and I do my best to reject doctrines of men like the gifts died out when the apostles died,etc. I believe the bible,every born again Christian has the same Holy Spirit Jesus had in them and so we do still have gifts of the Spirit and I've seen some demonstrated that convinced me,like getting a word of knowledge,etc,seeing a demon get cast out of a person,etc.I've seen a demon tremble at the name of Jesus like we read about in the bible.They are scared and afraid of Jesus,they know who he is. And after seeing a demon get cast out of a person I know that it makes no difference world wide. You could be in China and have a demon possessed person and that demon will respond to the name of Jesus even if you said it in English there,they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

How can it not be a gift? Sure we have the gifts of the Spirit,but why would we consider casting out demons not a gift? It would be a gift by the Holy Spirit just like the other gifts.I mentioned a word of knowledge first as a way we can know the gifts are still here and it is a gift of the Spirit. But as far as casting out demons I just threw that in as an example of a way we can know God's word is true.And since I've seen a demon get cast out I know demon possession is real and that Christians can cast out demons even today.It is important though that demons do tremble at the name of Jesus,they are scared and afraid of him and they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

Not to mention that, in Scripture, the casting out of demons was simple - not some hours and days of repetitive, secret rituals, etc. - as if the power was in such RITUAL or abilities of the exorcist. The power was (and is) in the name of the one who truly has the power to remove the demonic: JESUS! Once again, the CC sets up a dependency upon priests to do something that supposedly an "untrained layperson" Christian supposedly could not. And let's not forget, the demonic is exceptionally clever. Might they not oppress - or even possess someone - and when the CC exorcists start their rituals and chanting, etc. - first exhibit many of the classic "hollywood" signs of possession, with screaming, swearing, shows of great strength, strange voices, or whatever else - and then, at some point, as the exorcists continue, merely withdraw from the victim and go quiet - as the exorcists "confirm" to themselves and others the supposed power of ritual. In the New Testament, demons were merely commanded to come out by Jesus. And the apostles also did this in His name.

Philip wrote:Not to mention that, in Scripture, the casting out of demons was simple - not some hours and days of repetitive, secret rituals, etc. - as if the power was in such RITUAL or abilities of the exorcist. The power was (and is) in the name of the one who truly has the power to remove the demonic: JESUS! Once again, the CC sets up a dependency upon priests to do something that supposedly an "untrained layperson" Christian supposedly could not. And let's not forget, the demonic is exceptionally clever. Might they not oppress - or even possess someone - and when the CC exorcists start their rituals and chanting, etc. - first exhibit many of the classic "hollywood" signs of possession, with screaming, swearing, shows of great strength, strange voices, or whatever else - and then, at some point, as the exorcists continue, merely withdraw from the victim and go quiet - as the exorcists "confirm" to themselves and others the supposed power of ritual. In the New Testament, demons were merely commanded to come out by Jesus. And the apostles also did this in His name.

The outlandish fakery of many nominal Christians is very disturbing. I can well understand the yearning of many for purity in their church, seeing the maggot ridden mass of corruption that
so much of it is.

Of course, Talibans think that way too. Purity, purity.

Audie wrote:The outlandish fakery of many nominal Christians is very disturbing. I can well understand the yearning of many for purity in their church, seeing the maggot ridden mass of corruption that
so much of it is.

Of course, Talibans think that way too. Purity, purity.

Matt 13:24-30

Jac3510 wrote:

Audie wrote:The outlandish fakery of many nominal Christians is very disturbing. I can well understand the yearning of many for purity in their church, seeing the maggot ridden mass of corruption that
so much of it is.

Of course, Talibans think that way too. Purity, purity.

Matt 13:24-30

Audie -- Why do you include the Talibans in this conversation.

Lands you sure have a negative attitude towards Christians /// sounds like you're grouping RCC with Christians. The 'maggot ridden mass of corruption' -- lands why not tell us how you REALLY feel. And 'the outlandish fakery of many nominal Christians'. Where does such attitude on your part come from?

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:I don't mind you not agreeing completely with me, but what part is biblically wrong with what I said?

by the way I am agreeing with you on this subject.

didn't think I would agree with you or abelcainsbrother on any thing but I do mostly on this.

Why wouldn't you agree with me? If it says it in the bible? I believe it and I do my best to reject doctrines of men like the gifts died out when the apostles died,etc. I believe the bible,every born again Christian has the same Holy Spirit Jesus had in them and so we do still have gifts of the Spirit and I've seen some demonstrated that convinced me,like getting a word of knowledge,etc,seeing a demon get cast out of a person,etc.I've seen a demon tremble at the name of Jesus like we read about in the bible.They are scared and afraid of Jesus,they know who he is. And after seeing a demon get cast out of a person I know that it makes no difference world wide. You could be in China and have a demon possessed person and that demon will respond to the name of Jesus even if you said it in English there,they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

How can it not be a gift? Sure we have the gifts of the Spirit,but why would we consider casting out demons not a gift? It would be a gift by the Holy Spirit just like the other gifts.I mentioned a word of knowledge first as a way we can know the gifts are still here and it is a gift of the Spirit. But as far as casting out demons I just threw that in as an example of a way we can know God's word is true.And since I've seen a demon get cast out I know demon possession is real and that Christians can cast out demons even today.It is important though that demons do tremble at the name of Jesus,they are scared and afraid of him and they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

Mark 16:17-18

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Why wouldn't you agree with me? If it says it in the bible? I believe it and I do my best to reject doctrines of men like the gifts died out when the apostles died,etc. I believe the bible,every born again Christian has the same Holy Spirit Jesus had in them and so we do still have gifts of the Spirit and I've seen some demonstrated that convinced me,like getting a word of knowledge,etc,seeing a demon get cast out of a person,etc.I've seen a demon tremble at the name of Jesus like we read about in the bible.They are scared and afraid of Jesus,they know who he is. And after seeing a demon get cast out of a person I know that it makes no difference world wide. You could be in China and have a demon possessed person and that demon will respond to the name of Jesus even if you said it in English there,they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

How can it not be a gift? Sure we have the gifts of the Spirit,but why would we consider casting out demons not a gift? It would be a gift by the Holy Spirit just like the other gifts.I mentioned a word of knowledge first as a way we can know the gifts are still here and it is a gift of the Spirit. But as far as casting out demons I just threw that in as an example of a way we can know God's word is true.And since I've seen a demon get cast out I know demon possession is real and that Christians can cast out demons even today.It is important though that demons do tremble at the name of Jesus,they are scared and afraid of him and they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

Mark 16:17-18

ACB,

Are you really saying those verses apply to people today?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/snake-handling ... d=22551754

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote: Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

How can it not be a gift? Sure we have the gifts of the Spirit,but why would we consider casting out demons not a gift? It would be a gift by the Holy Spirit just like the other gifts.I mentioned a word of knowledge first as a way we can know the gifts are still here and it is a gift of the Spirit. But as far as casting out demons I just threw that in as an example of a way we can know God's word is true.And since I've seen a demon get cast out I know demon possession is real and that Christians can cast out demons even today.It is important though that demons do tremble at the name of Jesus,they are scared and afraid of him and they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

Mark 16:17-18

ACB,

Are you really saying those verses apply to people today?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/snake-handling ... d=22551754

Why are you using that as an example? Those people are wacko's Taking up serpents has nothing to do with tempting God. Taking up serpents is like being a Christian missionary going into a foreign land with sicknesses,etc and being protected from the sickness,etc. There was no snake handling where I saw a demon get cast out. I wish you could see demons afraid and scared of Jesus because just like the bible says demons tremble at the name of Jesus just like in the bible like when Jesus cast out demons and they went into the swine ran down into the water and drowned,They were afraid that Jesus came to torment them and they act the very same way when they hear about Jesus today. It makes the pages of the bible come alive and it is the same world wide. I personally don't agree with the way Catholics deal with demon possession,but I'm a Protestant.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:
How can it not be a gift? Sure we have the gifts of the Spirit,but why would we consider casting out demons not a gift? It would be a gift by the Holy Spirit just like the other gifts.I mentioned a word of knowledge first as a way we can know the gifts are still here and it is a gift of the Spirit. But as far as casting out demons I just threw that in as an example of a way we can know God's word is true.And since I've seen a demon get cast out I know demon possession is real and that Christians can cast out demons even today.It is important though that demons do tremble at the name of Jesus,they are scared and afraid of him and they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

Mark 16:17-18

ACB,

Are you really saying those verses apply to people today?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/snake-handling ... d=22551754

Why are you using that as an example? Those people are wacko's Taking up serpents has nothing to do with tempting God. Taking up serpents is like being a Christian missionary going into a foreign land with sicknesses,etc and being protected from the sickness,etc. There was no snake handling where I saw a demon get cast out. I wish you could see demons afraid and scared of Jesus because just like the bible says demons tremble at the name of Jesus just like in the bible like when Jesus cast out demons and they went into the swine ran down into the water and drowned,They were afraid that Jesus came to torment them and they act the very same way when they hear about Jesus today. It makes the pages of the bible come alive and it it the same world wide. I personally don't agree with the way Catholics deal with demon possession,but I'm a Protestant.

You picked the verses as an example, not me. I asked where in the Bible it says that "driving out demons" is a gift. Your verses listed it among other supposed gifts. Are you saying that those "gifts" only apply to missionaries?

What about this guy who died from malaria?
http://www.alexcityoutlook.com/2016/06/ ... h-malaria/


Or this man?
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ ... _doin.html


Or this woman?
http://www.bpnews.net/44806/imb-mission ... -in-malawi

Or this man?
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/m/archives/36601/

Were they "wackos" tempting God?

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:
How can it not be a gift? Sure we have the gifts of the Spirit,but why would we consider casting out demons not a gift? It would be a gift by the Holy Spirit just like the other gifts.I mentioned a word of knowledge first as a way we can know the gifts are still here and it is a gift of the Spirit. But as far as casting out demons I just threw that in as an example of a way we can know God's word is true.And since I've seen a demon get cast out I know demon possession is real and that Christians can cast out demons even today.It is important though that demons do tremble at the name of Jesus,they are scared and afraid of him and they know who he is world wide.

Where is the gift of "driving out demons" mentioned in the Bible?

Mark 16:17-18

ACB,

Are you really saying those verses apply to people today?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/snake-handling ... d=22551754

Why are you using that as an example? Those people are wacko's Taking up serpents has nothing to do with tempting God. Taking up serpents is like being a Christian missionary going into a foreign land with sicknesses,etc and being protected from the sickness,etc. There was no snake handling where I saw a demon get cast out. I wish you could see demons afraid and scared of Jesus because just like the bible says demons tremble at the name of Jesus just like in the bible like when Jesus cast out demons and they went into the swine ran down into the water and drowned,They were afraid that Jesus came to torment them and they act the very same way when they hear about Jesus today. It makes the pages of the bible come alive and it is the same world wide. I personally don't agree with the way Catholics deal with demon possession,but I'm a Protestant.

There is a passage Mark 16:17-18 - these signs will accompany those who believe; In my name they will drive out demons; speak in new tongues; pick up snakes with their hands; and then they drink deadly poisons, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.
got Questions.org has an interesting article about that.
And it Is more about God's protection when going out with the Gospel. Jesus was talking with the Eleven that He was challenging just before He ascended back into heaven.

It is Very different from churches who practice snake handling for whatever reason.