Evidence for God from Science

Philip, I have pointed that out before. He still insists, even after I showed him that JEWS have NEANDERTHAL DNA in them, as with most other modern humans.
Interestingly he didn't reply back, or if he did it took so long I didn't notice it.

ACB,

It seems to me, that DBowling has brought up an argument that sinks the Gap Theory. Do you have anything to refute it, or are you going to be honest and give up on the Gap Theory once and for all?

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:25 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:44 am Science shows that "winged birds" have existed on our planet for around 150 million years.
And science also shows that our friends the Pelicans have existed on our planet for 30 million years.

And since "winged birds" and Pelicans show up in the fossil record that directly contradicts the Gap Theory premise of a 'former world'.
So not only does the Gap Theory directly contradict Scripture (Genesis 1:21), The Gap Theory is also contradicted by science and the fossil record, since species (such as the Pelican) that are still alive today also appear in the fossil record.

Which brings us back to our Pelican questions...
Do you agree with me that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Do you agree with me that the Pelican is a "winged bird"?
Are you willing to acknowledge that Pelicans did not exist before God created/bara "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5?

I am glad you brought this up as it is something that I had not considered and now I am aware of it.I'm still not convinced it is a contradiction as I showed you that bara apples to new things and so I have to believe that there were new pelicans created after their kind.It could be a new version of the pelican based on prior pelicans or birds that lived before.

Now you are directly contradicting your definition of bara
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

And then we come back again Genesis 1:21 where Scripture states that God created "every winged bird" on Day 5.
And you have yet to produce any Scriptural support for your assertion that God either made (asah) or created (bara) "winged birds" before he created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21.
So your assertions still directly contradict what Scripture says in Genesis 1:21.

The same thing would apply to Pre-Adamite races that lived in the former world and yet man and woman was created new in God's image for this world.

Ok... you went there...

You are again contradicting your own definition of bara (see above).
And again science contradicts your assertions.
Every human on the planet is genetically descended from humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) who lived in Africa somewhere around 150,000 to 200,000 years ago. This is long before the time Scripture gives for when the Biblical Adam lived (5000-6000 BC)(Genesis 4, 5, 11).
If every person on the planet is genetically descended from pre-Adamites then that means that pre-Adamites could not have lived in some 'former world'.

Genesis 1:26-27 also states that God created/bara mankind (species homo sapiens sapiens) in his image on Day 6. So humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) give the Gap Theory the same type of problems both Scripturally and scientifically that "every winged bird" and our friends the Pelicans do.

It does not mean that there is not a difference between bara and asah as you seem to be implying.

I really don't know why you keep saying this.
It's just not true.
I do believe there is a difference between bara and asah. I've said that many times.

In fact... it was while I was exploring that very difference that I discovered the direct contradiction between what the Gap Theory asserts and what Scripture states in Genesis 1:21.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:15 am ACB,

It seems to me, that DBowling has brought up an argument that sinks the Gap Theory. Do you have anything to refute it, or are you going to be honest and give up on the Gap Theory once and for all?

Really? how so? As you know there are slight problems with any of these interpretations when it comes to creationism.It makes no difference if you're young earth creationist,day age creationist,theistic evolutionist,gap creationist,etc. We can go through each and everyone of these and find issues and yet it does not stop that particular interpretation from being taught and promoted and presented as the true creation interpretation.We often point out certian difficulties with each interpretation when discussing them and we work through them. The Gap Theory is no different as it has difficulties in certian areas also but this does not mean it sinks the Gap Theory. I think the anomily lies somewhere in the phrases "after their kind" as I have already explained and how God both made and created life after their kind and this is being overlooked and ignored by you critics of this interpretation.It seems to me that ya'll are ignoring the fact God both made and created life after their kind and so you cannot fathom God creating a new kind of pelican based on it being created after their kind.So it would be a pelican based on former pelicans. Going through the fossil record shows us that certian life was in both worlds and so we know God created and made life after their kind.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:16 am

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:15 am ACB,

It seems to me, that DBowling has brought up an argument that sinks the Gap Theory. Do you have anything to refute it, or are you going to be honest and give up on the Gap Theory once and for all?

Really? how so? As you know there are slight problems with any of these interpretations when it comes to creationism.It makes no difference if you're young earth creationist,day age creationist,theistic evolutionist,gap creationist,etc. We can go through each and everyone of these and find issues and yet it does not stop that particular interpretation from being taught and promoted and presented as the true creation interpretation.We often point out certian difficulties with each interpretation when discussing them and we work through them. The Gap Theory is no different as it has difficulties in certian areas also but this does not mean it sinks the Gap Theory. I think the anomily lies somewhere in the phrases "after their kind" as I have already explained and how God both made and created life after their kind and this is being overlooked and ignored by you critics of this interpretation.It seems to me that ya'll are ignoring the fact God both made and created life after their kind and so you cannot fathom God creating a new kind of pelican based on it being created after their kind.So it would be a pelican based on former pelicans. Going through the fossil record shows us that certian life was in both worlds and so we know God created and made life after their kind.

Ok acb. Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify a belief in the gap theory.

But please don't try to convince us that you are being honest, because you're not.

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:21 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:25 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:44 am Science shows that "winged birds" have existed on our planet for around 150 million years.
And science also shows that our friends the Pelicans have existed on our planet for 30 million years.

And since "winged birds" and Pelicans show up in the fossil record that directly contradicts the Gap Theory premise of a 'former world'.
So not only does the Gap Theory directly contradict Scripture (Genesis 1:21), The Gap Theory is also contradicted by science and the fossil record, since species (such as the Pelican) that are still alive today also appear in the fossil record.

Which brings us back to our Pelican questions...
Do you agree with me that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Do you agree with me that the Pelican is a "winged bird"?
Are you willing to acknowledge that Pelicans did not exist before God created/bara "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5?

I am glad you brought this up as it is something that I had not considered and now I am aware of it.I'm still not convinced it is a contradiction as I showed you that bara apples to new things and so I have to believe that there were new pelicans created after their kind.It could be a new version of the pelican based on prior pelicans or birds that lived before.

Now you are directly contradicting your definition of bara
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

And then we come back again Genesis 1:21 where Scripture states that God created "every winged bird" on Day 5.
And you have yet to produce any Scriptural support for your assertion that God either made (asah) or created (bara) "winged birds" before he created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21.
So your assertions still directly contradict what Scripture says in Genesis 1:21.

The same thing would apply to Pre-Adamite races that lived in the former world and yet man and woman was created new in God's image for this world.

Ok... you went there...

You are again contradicting your own definition of bara (see above).
And again science contradicts your assertions.
Every human on the planet is genetically descended from humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) who lived in Africa somewhere around 150,000 to 200,000 years ago. This is long before the time Scripture gives for when the Biblical Adam lived (5000-6000 BC)(Genesis 4, 5, 11).
If every person on the planet is genetically descended from pre-Adamites then that means that pre-Adamites could not have lived in some 'former world'.

Genesis 1:26-27 also states that God created/bara mankind (species homo sapiens sapiens) in his image on Day 6. So humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) give the Gap Theory the same type of problems both Scripturally and scientifically that "every winged bird" and our friends the Pelicans do.

It does not mean that there is not a difference between bara and asah as you seem to be implying.

I really don't know why you keep saying this.
It's just not true.
I do believe there is a difference between bara and asah. I've said that many times.

In fact... it was while I was exploring that very difference that I discovered the direct contradiction between what the Gap Theory asserts and what Scripture states in Genesis 1:21.

Well let me ask you this then.When you read Genesis 1:21 did you overlook that birds were created after their kind? I mean you claim that you know there is a difference between bara and asah and yet it seems that you know bara applies to new things while asah does not as I showed and yet just because you found a fossil of a pelican you think that suddenly bara bara does not mean new things and it is a contradiction? How? God can create new pelicans based on old pelicans and since we know bara applies to new things they would be new kinds of pelicans created new after their kind. I hope you went through all of the other creation interpretations such as I have and put aside bias and then let the chips fall where they may when it comes to evidence to find out which one is the true one,because they all cannot be true and only one can be right.Although it is possible that with certian ones each have truth in them that is important that could help us with our understanding of our interpretation and yet it is overlooked "because of our interpretation"

You see right off the bat,when you claim humans in this world are genetically descended from the pre-Adamite races you are then accepting evolution.You are accepting that pre-Adamites evolved into humans.You're also buying into the idea that from Genesis 1:1 to this present time there has been an unbroken line in history which cannot be true based on scripture 2nd Peter 3:4-6. And based on Jeremiah 4:25 we know pre-Adamites lived in the former world because there is never a time in the future of bible prophecy when there is no man,so we know by science that this is a look back in time when there was no man on the earth and we know the world at that time was destroyed by water that the earth was formed out of in Genesis chapter 1.Genesis 1:2 notice waters - plural)

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:23 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:21 am Now you are directly contradicting your definition of bara
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

I do believe there is a difference between bara and asah. I've said that many times.

In fact... it was while I was exploring that very difference that I discovered the direct contradiction between what the Gap Theory asserts and what Scripture states in Genesis 1:21.

Well let me ask you this then.When you read Genesis 1:21 did you overlook that birds were created after their kind?

Let's look at a couple of translations to see what's going on here...

NRSV
21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.
NIV
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 is telling us that that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 and that he all 'kinds' of different birds on Day 5.

I mean you claim that you know there is a difference between bara and asah and yet it seems that you know bara applies to new things while asah does not as I showed and yet just because you found a fossil of a pelican you think that suddenly bara bara does not mean new things and it is a contradiction?

The contradiction is not with either Scripture or Science.

The Contradiction is between Scripture and and the Gap Theory
And between Science and the Gap Theory

You assert
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Then you assert that Pelicans existed in some unScriptural 'former world'.

Which directly contradicts what Scripture teaches in Genesis 1:21.
If Scripture teaches (in Genesis 1:21) that God created created/bara "every winged bird" as 'something new that had never been created before' on Day 5 then that directly contradicts any assertion that Pelicans (or any other winged bird for that matter) existed before Day 5.

That's a direct contradiction between what Scripture teaches and the Gap Theory's unScriptural premise of a 'formal world'.

You see right off the bat,when you claim humans in this world are genetically descended from the pre-Adamite races you are then accepting evolution.You are accepting that pre-Adamites evolved into humans.

Again you are making untrue statements about my position...

I am not claiming that pre-Adamites 'evolved' into humans.
I am claiming that the pre-Adamites who were created in God's image in Genesis 1:26-27 on Day 6 WERE humans (ie species homo sapiens sapiens)

You're also buying into the idea that from Genesis 1:1 to this present time there has been an unbroken line in history

Yes... and that happens to be what Scripture teaches as well.

which cannot be true based on scripture 2nd Peter 3:4-6.

Sure it can...
The "world of that time" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:6 is the 'world' that was destroyed and deluged by Noah's Flood around 3000 BC.
In 2 Peter 3, Peter is comparing the Second Coming of Jesus with the time of Noah, just like Jesus did in Mat 24:36-39.

2 Peter 3:4-6 has nothing at all to do with the unScriptural 'former world' that the Gap Theory claims existed prior to Genesis 1:2.

And based on Jeremiah 4:25 we know pre-Adamites lived in the former world

Where's the facepalm emoji?

You really need to pay attention to Scriptural contexts before you make absurd comments like that.
Jeremiah 4:25 is part of a prophecy against Jerusalem
(I would love to hear you attempt to explain how Jerusalem existed in your unScriptural 'former world'.)

Jeremiah 4:11-12 provides the context for the prophecy that Jeremiah makes against Jerusalem.

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.”

we know the world at that time was destroyed by water that the earth was formed out of in Genesis chapter 1.Genesis 1:2 notice waters - plural)

Wrong again...
The earth 'was formed out of water' on Day 3 (see Genesis 1:9-10)

RickD wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:29 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:16 am

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:15 am ACB,

It seems to me, that DBowling has brought up an argument that sinks the Gap Theory. Do you have anything to refute it, or are you going to be honest and give up on the Gap Theory once and for all?

Really? how so? As you know there are slight problems with any of these interpretations when it comes to creationism.It makes no difference if you're young earth creationist,day age creationist,theistic evolutionist,gap creationist,etc. We can go through each and everyone of these and find issues and yet it does not stop that particular interpretation from being taught and promoted and presented as the true creation interpretation.We often point out certian difficulties with each interpretation when discussing them and we work through them. The Gap Theory is no different as it has difficulties in certian areas also but this does not mean it sinks the Gap Theory. I think the anomily lies somewhere in the phrases "after their kind" as I have already explained and how God both made and created life after their kind and this is being overlooked and ignored by you critics of this interpretation.It seems to me that ya'll are ignoring the fact God both made and created life after their kind and so you cannot fathom God creating a new kind of pelican based on it being created after their kind.So it would be a pelican based on former pelicans. Going through the fossil record shows us that certian life was in both worlds and so we know God created and made life after their kind.

Ok acb. Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify a belief in the gap theory.

But please don't try to convince us that you are being honest, because you're not.

I have been honest.I acknowledged it seems like a contradiction but explained how it really is'nt a contradiction. I already knew certian life existed in both worlds from examining the fossil record but DB set me up with something I had not realized and I learned something new and acknowledged it.If I ever find a legit reason to reject the Gap theory I will,but I see not reason to yet. I'm still longing to see the the Gap Theory destroy the Theory of Evolution unlike Young Earth Creationism and Intelligent Design have been able to do and I believe people will then come around to the Gap Theory but right now creationism is in a crisis and the church is trying to do the same things over and over expecting to get different results when it comes to creationism and the more popular creation interpretations being used out there.When it comes to creationism and how it is being used by the church for now Jeremiah 4:22 comes to mind.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:09 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:23 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:21 am Now you are directly contradicting your definition of bara
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

I do believe there is a difference between bara and asah. I've said that many times.

In fact... it was while I was exploring that very difference that I discovered the direct contradiction between what the Gap Theory asserts and what Scripture states in Genesis 1:21.

Well let me ask you this then.When you read Genesis 1:21 did you overlook that birds were created after their kind?

Let's look at a couple of translations to see what's going on here...

NRSV
21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.
NIV
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 is telling us that that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 and that he all 'kinds' of different birds on Day 5.

I mean you claim that you know there is a difference between bara and asah and yet it seems that you know bara applies to new things while asah does not as I showed and yet just because you found a fossil of a pelican you think that suddenly bara bara does not mean new things and it is a contradiction?

The contradiction is not with either Scripture or Science.

The Contradiction is between Scripture and and the Gap Theory
And between Science and the Gap Theory

You assert
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Then you assert that Pelicans existed in some unScriptural 'former world'.

Which directly contradicts what Scripture teaches in Genesis 1:21.
If Scripture teaches (in Genesis 1:21) that God created created/bara "every winged bird" as 'something new that had never been created before' on Day 5 then that directly contradicts any assertion that Pelicans (or any other winged bird for that matter) existed before Day 5.

That's a direct contradiction between what Scripture teaches and the Gap Theory's unScriptural premise of a 'formal world'.

You see right off the bat,when you claim humans in this world are genetically descended from the pre-Adamite races you are then accepting evolution.You are accepting that pre-Adamites evolved into humans.

Again you are making untrue statements about my position...

I am not claiming that pre-Adamites 'evolved' into humans.
I am claiming that the pre-Adamites who were created in God's image in Genesis 1:26-27 on Day 6 WERE humans (ie species homo sapiens sapiens)

You're also buying into the idea that from Genesis 1:1 to this present time there has been an unbroken line in history

Yes... and that happens to be what Scripture teaches as well.

which cannot be true based on scripture 2nd Peter 3:4-6.

Sure it can...
The "world of that time" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:6 is the 'world' that was destroyed and deluged by Noah's Flood around 3000 BC.
In 2 Peter 3, Peter is comparing the Second Coming of Jesus with the time of Noah, just like Jesus did in Mat 24:36-39.

2 Peter 3:4-6 has nothing at all to do with the unScriptural 'former world' that the Gap Theory claims existed prior to Genesis 1:2.

And based on Jeremiah 4:25 we know pre-Adamites lived in the former world

Where's the facepalm emoji?

You really need to pay attention to Scriptural contexts before you make absurd comments like that.
Jeremiah 4:25 is part of a prophecy against Jerusalem
(I would love to hear you attempt to explain how Jerusalem existed in your unScriptural 'former world'.)

Jeremiah 4:11-12 provides the context for the prophecy that Jeremiah makes against Jerusalem.

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.”

we know the world at that time was destroyed by water that the earth was formed out of in Genesis chapter 1.Genesis 1:2 notice waters - plural)

Wrong again...
The earth 'was formed out of water' on Day 3 (see Genesis 1:9-10)

Well let me ask you this then.When you read Genesis 1:21 did you overlook that birds were created after their kind?
[/quote]
Let's look at a couple of translations to see what's going on here...

NRSV
21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.
NIV
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 is telling us that that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 and that he all 'kinds' of different birds on Day 5.

Even the NIV says "according to their kind God created every winged bird.You are overlooking after their kind,after his kind and according to their kind.I will acknlowledge that I do not need to say bara means new things never created before as I should just say bara means new things as it does. So God created all birds new according to their kind,this means previous birds that existed in the former world and this includes the pelicans for this world but also other life that was in both worlds.


You see right off the bat,when you claim humans in this world are genetically descended from the pre-Adamite races you are then accepting evolution.You are accepting that pre-Adamites evolved into humans.
[/quote]
Again you are making untrue statements about my position...

I am not claiming that pre-Adamites 'evolved' into humans.
I am claiming that the pre-Adamites who were created in God's image in Genesis 1:26-27 on Day 6 WERE humans (ie species homo sapiens sapiens)

Oh,OK sorry, but I am saying pre-Adamites lived in the former world at one time before it was destroyed and that they are not genetically related to humans who were created in God's image on day 6 because that world perished completely and the earth became uninhabitable for life and all life died Genesis 1:2.By the way since you brought the NIV translation into this discussion if you look at the bottom of the page for Genesis 1:2 it says that it can possible be translated became instead of was. For example the very same hebrew word is used elsewhere in Genesis is translated became instead of was like in Genesis 19:26 where Lot's wife became a pillar of salt.


And based on Jeremiah 4:25 we know pre-Adamites lived in the former world
[/quote]
Where's the facepalm emoji?

You really need to pay attention to Scriptural contexts before you make absurd comments like that.
Jeremiah 4:25 is part of a prophecy against Jerusalem
(I would love to hear you attempt to explain how Jerusalem existed in your unScriptural 'former world'.)

Jeremiah 4:11-12 provides the context for the prophecy that Jeremiah makes against Jerusalem.

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.”

I agree it is a prophecy against Israel so go ahead and point out a time in the future where there will be no man because there will always be man in the future.However according to the fossil record we have the evidence of pre-Adamite races that once lived in the former world and are now extinct.Therefore we know this prophecy is looking back in time and not forward like Gap Theorists have taught.It is you wrong according to both scripture and science because pre-Adamite races are in the past and we know there was a time when there was no man on the earth because the world at that time was destroyed.


which cannot be true based on scripture 2nd Peter 3:4-6.
[/quote]
Sure it can...
The "world of that time" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:6 is the 'world' that was destroyed and deluged by Noah's Flood around 3000 BC.
In 2 Peter 3, Peter is comparing the Second Coming of Jesus with the time of Noah, just like Jesus did in Mat 24:36-39.

2 Peter 3:4-6 has nothing at all to do with the unScriptural 'former world' that the Gap Theory claims existed prior to Genesis 1:2.

Noah was in this world so you cannot contradict what the bible teaches in order to now claim Noah did not live in this world as you're trying to do and critics of the Gap Theory claim contradicting scripture.Noah stepped on the ark in this world and stepped back off the ark still in this world.And if you're going to claim the world before Noah's flood was destroyed then you cannot claim Adam and Eve were in this world also like you're doing.Because humans were created in God image for this word and despite Noah's flood in this world.God kept this world going so that Jesus could be born so that humans in this world could be saved,but not the world at that time that was destroyed by water that the earth was formed out of in Genesis 1.


we know the world at that time was destroyed by water that the earth was formed out of in Genesis chapter 1.Genesis 1:2 notice waters - plural)
[/quote]
Wrong again...
The earth 'was formed out of water' on Day 3 (see Genesis 1:9-10)

I agree so there was a world before the waters the earth was formed out of destroyed the world at that time.read 2nd Peter 3:6 and that it what it says.This is why we place the gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.We can see the earth became without form and void as a result of the waters that flooded the kosmos,not just the earth like in Noah's flood.I no longer have to use only the KJV bible to defend the Gap Theory.I like the NASB just fine.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:07 pm

Well let me ask you this then.When you read Genesis 1:21 did you overlook that birds were created after their kind?

Let's look at a couple of translations to see what's going on here...

NRSV
21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.
NIV
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 is telling us that that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 and that he all 'kinds' of different birds on Day 5.

Even the NIV says "according to their kind God created every winged bird.You are overlooking after their kind,after his kind and according to their kind.I will acknlowledge that I do not need to say bara means new things never created before as I should just say bara means new things as it does. So God created all birds new according to their kind,this means previous birds that existed in the former world and this includes the pelicans for this world but also other life that was in both worlds.

If you are saying that "after their kind" means that creatures somehow existed before God created/bara them, then you are seriously misunderstanding what the Scriptural text is saying.

"after its kind", "according to its kind", "of every kind" doesn't mean that creatures somehow existed before God created them.
It simply means that when God created these creatures he created many different 'kinds' of creatures.

You see right off the bat,when you claim humans in this world are genetically descended from the pre-Adamite races you are then accepting evolution.You are accepting that pre-Adamites evolved into humans.

Again you are making untrue statements about my position...

I am not claiming that pre-Adamites 'evolved' into humans.
I am claiming that the pre-Adamites who were created in God's image in Genesis 1:26-27 on Day 6 WERE humans (ie species homo sapiens sapiens)

Oh,OK sorry, but I am saying pre-Adamites lived in the former world at one time before it was destroyed and that they are not genetically related to humans who were created in God's image on day 6 because that world perished completely and the earth became uninhabitable for life and all life died Genesis 1:2.

I do understand what you are saying.
But I also understand that what you are saying contradicts Scripture and what you are saying contradicts Science.

When I refer to pre-Adamites I am referring to humans who were created in God's image on Day 6 in Genesis 1:26-27.
There is no Scriptural support for the premise that pre-Adamite humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) existed prior to Day 6 in some unScriptural 'former world'.

However, there is significant scientific evidence to show that non-human hominids (such as Neanderthals) did coexist with humans until around 50,000 years ago. And this places non-human hominids in the same world that humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) have been living in for the last 150,000 to 200,000 years.

So we have yet another example where science directly contradicts the unScriptural claims of the Gap Theory.

And based on Jeremiah 4:25 we know pre-Adamites lived in the former world

You really need to pay attention to Scriptural contexts before you make absurd comments like that.
Jeremiah 4:25 is part of a prophecy against Jerusalem
(I would love to hear you attempt to explain how Jerusalem existed in your unScriptural 'former world'.)

Jeremiah 4:11-12 provides the context for the prophecy that Jeremiah makes against Jerusalem.

I agree it is a prophecy against Israel so go ahead and point out a time in the future where there will be no man because there will always be man in the future.

Jeremiah is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. This prophecy was fulfilled when Babylon laid siege to Jerusalem around 587 BC.

The "world of that time" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:6 is the 'world' that was destroyed and deluged by Noah's Flood around 3000 BC.
In 2 Peter 3, Peter is comparing the Second Coming of Jesus with the time of Noah, just like Jesus did in Mat 24:36-39.

2 Peter 3:4-6 has nothing at all to do with the unScriptural 'former world' that the Gap Theory claims existed prior to Genesis 1:2.

Noah was in this world so you cannot contradict what the bible teaches in order to now claim Noah did not live in this world as you're trying to do

The 'world' of Noah's time that was destroyed by the Flood was the Mesopotamian 'world' of 3000 BC.

we know the world at that time was destroyed by water that the earth was formed out of in Genesis chapter 1.Genesis 1:2 notice waters - plural)

Wrong again...
The earth 'was formed out of water' on Day 3 (see Genesis 1:9-10)

I agree so there was a world before the waters the earth was formed out of destroyed the world at that time.read 2nd Peter 3:6 and that it what it says.

you are simply wrong on that...
You continue to misstate what 2 Peter 3:6 says.
The 'world at that time' in 2 Peter 3:6 is referring to the 'world' at the time of Noah, not the unScriptural 'former world' of the Gap Theory.

This is why we place the gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.We can see the earth became without form and void as a result of the waters that flooded the kosmos

Wrong again...
The earth was without form and void in Genesis 1:2 because God had not yet brought order to the earth that he had created/bara in Genesis 1:1.
During Days 1 through 6 God works on (asah - see Exodus 20:11) and brings order to the earth that is still void and without form in Genesis 1:2.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:29 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:07 pm

Well let me ask you this then.When you read Genesis 1:21 did you overlook that birds were created after their kind?

Let's look at a couple of translations to see what's going on here...

NRSV
21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.
NIV
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 is telling us that that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 and that he all 'kinds' of different birds on Day 5.

Even the NIV says "according to their kind God created every winged bird.You are overlooking after their kind,after his kind and according to their kind.I will acknlowledge that I do not need to say bara means new things never created before as I should just say bara means new things as it does. So God created all birds new according to their kind,this means previous birds that existed in the former world and this includes the pelicans for this world but also other life that was in both worlds.

If you are saying that "after their kind" means that creatures somehow existed before God created/bara them, then you are seriously misunderstanding what the Scriptural text is saying.

"after its kind", "according to its kind", "of every kind" doesn't mean that creatures somehow existed before God created them.
It simply means that when God created these creatures he created many different 'kinds' of creatures.

You see right off the bat,when you claim humans in this world are genetically descended from the pre-Adamite races you are then accepting evolution.You are accepting that pre-Adamites evolved into humans.

Again you are making untrue statements about my position...

I am not claiming that pre-Adamites 'evolved' into humans.
I am claiming that the pre-Adamites who were created in God's image in Genesis 1:26-27 on Day 6 WERE humans (ie species homo sapiens sapiens)

Oh,OK sorry, but I am saying pre-Adamites lived in the former world at one time before it was destroyed and that they are not genetically related to humans who were created in God's image on day 6 because that world perished completely and the earth became uninhabitable for life and all life died Genesis 1:2.

I do understand what you are saying.
But I also understand that what you are saying contradicts Scripture and what you are saying contradicts Science.

When I refer to pre-Adamites I am referring to humans who were created in God's image on Day 6 in Genesis 1:26-27.
There is no Scriptural support for the premise that pre-Adamite humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) existed prior to Day 6 in some unScriptural 'former world'.

However, there is significant scientific evidence to show that non-human hominids (such as Neanderthals) did coexist with humans until around 50,000 years ago. And this places non-human hominids in the same world that humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) have been living in for the last 150,000 to 200,000 years.

So we have yet another example where science directly contradicts the unScriptural claims of the Gap Theory.

And based on Jeremiah 4:25 we know pre-Adamites lived in the former world

You really need to pay attention to Scriptural contexts before you make absurd comments like that.
Jeremiah 4:25 is part of a prophecy against Jerusalem
(I would love to hear you attempt to explain how Jerusalem existed in your unScriptural 'former world'.)

Jeremiah 4:11-12 provides the context for the prophecy that Jeremiah makes against Jerusalem.

I agree it is a prophecy against Israel so go ahead and point out a time in the future where there will be no man because there will always be man in the future.

Jeremiah is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. This prophecy was fulfilled when Babylon laid siege to Jerusalem around 587 BC.

The "world of that time" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:6 is the 'world' that was destroyed and deluged by Noah's Flood around 3000 BC.
In 2 Peter 3, Peter is comparing the Second Coming of Jesus with the time of Noah, just like Jesus did in Mat 24:36-39.

2 Peter 3:4-6 has nothing at all to do with the unScriptural 'former world' that the Gap Theory claims existed prior to Genesis 1:2.

Noah was in this world so you cannot contradict what the bible teaches in order to now claim Noah did not live in this world as you're trying to do

The 'world' of Noah's time that was destroyed by the Flood was the Mesopotamian 'world' of 3000 BC.

we know the world at that time was destroyed by water that the earth was formed out of in Genesis chapter 1.Genesis 1:2 notice waters - plural)

Wrong again...
The earth 'was formed out of water' on Day 3 (see Genesis 1:9-10)

I agree so there was a world before the waters the earth was formed out of destroyed the world at that time.read 2nd Peter 3:6 and that it what it says.

you are simply wrong on that...
You continue to misstate what 2 Peter 3:6 says.
The 'world at that time' in 2 Peter 3:6 is referring to the 'world' at the time of Noah, not the unScriptural 'former world' of the Gap Theory.

This is why we place the gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.We can see the earth became without form and void as a result of the waters that flooded the kosmos

Wrong again...
The earth was without form and void in Genesis 1:2 because God had not yet brought order to the earth that he had created/bara in Genesis 1:1.
During Days 1 through 6 God works on (asah - see Exodus 20:11) and brings order to the earth that is still void and without form in Genesis 1:2.

Please explain how God could create birds after their kind or according to their kind or after his kind if they had not existed before.Birds had to have existed before in order for God to create new birds after their kind.You are overlooking these phrases that lets us know life existed before,plus the earth is old without having to just rely on science saying it.This is a big reason why I like the Gap Theory interpretation as we know the earth is old and not young from bible study and science confirms it correct,instead of trying to make science fit into the bible and having to stretch out the days to do it.Although a case can be made that it can be done it is not necessary to know the earth is old as the bible already reveals the earth is old and Gap Theoists understand this and how the bible tells us the earth is old but also that the earth could be even older than science claims based on the fact that God is eternal so that we can get as much time that we need for our particular creation interpretation.I just can't see how you can skim over them phrases after their kind or according to their kind but I also know that I overlooked it for years before being taught the truth from Gap Theorists.

On Jeremiah 4:25 God is reminding and warning Jerusalem about what happened to the former world when it was destroyed and it was just like the former world was for Jerusalem inwhich it was laid waste just like the earth was when the former world was destroyed and the earth became without form and void Jeremiah 4:23. Compare Jeremiah 4:23 with Genesis 1:2 and you'll notice it lines up.We do this when we study the bible,we compare scripture with scripture in order to better understand God's word.Like for instance in the book of Daniel there are ten toes on the statue image in Nebadchanezzae's dream and this lines up with ten heads on the scarlet colored beast in the book of Revelation.It is no difference with how Genesis 1:2 lines up with Jeremiah 4:23 and it is talking about the former world when there was no man when the hominids,neanderthals,cro-magnon,etc went extinct because that world perished.We have evidence in the fossil record that confirms it was a look back in time at what happened to the former world.



You're contradicting the bible claiming Noah was not in this world when it comes to 2nd Peter 3:5-7.And again you're overlooking a massive amount of fossil evidence for a former world that did indeed perish long before Noah's flood.Also nobody is willingly ignorant about Noah's flood and so again it cannott cannot be referring to Noah's flood.Also The earth was formed out of the waters that destroyed the world at that time.It was in Genesis 1 the earth was formed out of waters plural Genesis 1:2,not Noah's flood that the earth was formed out of like you're claiming. I don't see how you can honestly claim Noah was not in this world and this is a big reason I believe the Gap Theory is true and the critics are wrong.They are contradicting what scripture teach us that Adam and Eve,Moses,Noah,Jesus,etc were all in this world we now live in.It is not true no matter how many scholars of today claim it is.

You are claiming that God created the earth in a waste state which contradicts scripture Isaiah 45:18.You'll notice wa-bo-hu is the hebrew word for waste we see in Genesis 1:2 and yet Isaiah tells us God did not create the earth in a waste state or empty state - wa-bo-hu like you're claiming. And we'd know this if we read and studied Genesis 2:1-4 where Moses is trying to get us to notice the difference between the words bara and asah because the earth was new when it was created in the beginning whenever that was but it became without form and void from the waters in Genesis 1:2. 2nd Peter 3:5-6

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:28 am Please explain how God could create birds after their kind or according to their kind or after his kind if they had not existed before.

I already have... twice...
... but maybe the third time's a charm
"after their kind", "according to their kind", "of every kind" means that God created/bara different 'kinds' of sea creatures on Day 5 and he created/bara different 'kinds' of birds on Day 5.

It does not mean that "great creatures of the sea" and "every winged bird" somehow existed before they were created/bara by God.

On Jeremiah 4:25 God is reminding and warning Jerusalem about what happened to the former world when it was destroyed and it was just like the former world was for Jerusalem inwhich it was laid waste just like the earth was when the former world was destroyed and the earth became without form and void Jeremiah 4:23.

Again you are misrepresenting what Scripture says. Jeremiah 4:25 is part of a prophecy about what was going to happen to Jerusalem when Babylon destroyed it.
There is nothing in Jeremiah 4 about your unScriptural 'former world'. That is a fabrication on your part.

there was no man when the hominids,neanderthals,cro-magnon,etc went extinct because that world perished.We have evidence in the fossil record that confirms it was a look back in time at what happened to the former world.

You are again in error...
Humans and Neanderthals coexisted from the time humans first appeared 150,000 to 200,000 years ago to the time Neanderthals went extinct around 35,000 years ago.
Just another example of where the Gap Theory is directly contradicted by science.

You're contradicting the bible claiming Noah was not in this world when it comes to 2nd Peter 3:5-7.

And you are again misrepresenting what I said...
I said that Noah was part of the Mesopotamian 'world' of around 3000 BC.

Part of your error here involves your misunderstanding of how 'world' is used by the NT writers.
Luke 2:1 is a good example.
According to Luke 2:1 "a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered."
What is 'world' referring to in Luke 2:1?
It is referring to the Roman 'world' at the time of Caesar Augustus.

Going back to 2 Peter 3:6 we see that Peter uses 'world' similarly to how Luke uses 'world' in Luke 2:1.
What is the 'world at that time' referring to in 2 Peter 3:6?
It is referring to Noah's 'world' at the time of Noah's Flood, which is the Mesopotamian 'world' of around 3000 BC.

You are claiming that God created the earth in a waste state

I am claiming exactly what Genesis 1:1-2 claims.
That after God created/bara the heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1 the earth was formless and void in Genesis 1:2.

According to Scripture the earth was formless and void (Genesis 1:2) after God created/bara the heavens and earth (Genesis 1:1) and before God made/formed/asah the heavens and earth (Exodus 20:11) that he had previously created/bara in Genesis 1:1.

which contradicts scripture Isaiah 45:18.

And you are again misrepresenting what Scripture says.
Genesis 1:2 is the starting state of the earth prior to God's six 'Days' of creative activity which begins in Genesis 1:3.
It is only after Day 6, when God has formed land, created plant and animal life, and created his image bearers to have dominion over earth, that God declares his creation to be very good.

Abe, please be careful how you quote people because one of your posts is a jumbled mess - as some of DB's posts look as if you wrote them as they are included in your response without a quote highlight - making it difficult to easily see who wrote what.

To me, GAP theorists cherrypick Scripture out of context to support their theory. And just think of the monumental action God would have taken to completely destroy a supposed former world, yet without any explanation as to why! Note that every catastrophe that Scripture mentions God causes to the world or man is always explained with context, the reasons for it, and the resulting impact. And yet Abel asserts such an epic event happens from one verse to the next without any explanation and using other passages out of context to support it. And destroying a previous version of this earth teaming with living creatures without explanation - and not one prophet or apostle addresses anything but the flood of Noah. And yet Gappists place immense importance upon a supposed event the Bible never clearly says even happened, much less offers any explanations about it.

And if THIS earth has any connection at all to its supposed, former destroyed state, this would seem exceptionally important, and yet, referencing such an event without any explanation would be unique in all of Scripture. Scripture spends quite a bit talking about the early earth of today, the creations put into it, and its destruction in Noah's flood - but we're to be believe the earth's predecessor, its creatures, destruction and reasons for it are never explained??? These just make GT immediately suspect - and that is before the absurd Scriptural references trotted out to support it.

And what is really interesting is that Progressive Creationism easily explains both the fossil record and an ancient earth without having to resort to the highly dubious and creative uses of Scripture to support GT, or contradicting Scripture with evolutionary contentions. The idea that our only choice is between GT and evolution to explain the fossil record is totally absurd.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:24 pm To me, GAP theorists cherrypick Scripture out of context to support their theory. And just think of the monumental action God would have taken to completely destroy a supposed former world, yet without any explanation as to why! Note that every catastrophe that Scripture mentions God causes to the world or man is always explained with context, the reasons for it, and the resulting impact. And yet Abel asserts such an epic event happens from one verse to the next without any explanation and using other passages out of context to support it. And destroying a previous version of this earth teaming with living creatures without explanation - and not one prophet or apostle addresses anything but the flood of Noah. And yet Gappists place immense importance upon a supposed event the Bible never clearly says even happened, much less offers any explanations about it.

And if THIS earth has any connection at all to its supposed, former destroyed state, this would seem exceptionally important, and yet, referencing such an event without any explanation would be unique in all of Scripture. Scripture spends quite a bit talking about the early earth of today, the creations put into it, and its destruction in Noah's flood - but we're to be believe the earth's predecessor, its creatures, destruction and reasons for it are never explained??? These just make GT immediately suspect - and that is before the absurd Scriptural references trotted out to support it.

And what is really interesting is that Progressive Creationism easily explains both the fossil record and an ancient earth without having to resort to the highly dubious and creative uses of Scripture to support GT, or contradicting Scripture with evolutionary contentions. The idea that our only choice is between GT and evolution to explain the fossil record is totally absurd.

Like how the gappers will say the life in the old earth was different from that of now, though the evidence clearly says otherwise, but they'll ignore it. Not so scientific is that?