Evidence for God from Science

Bav: Then again, your point above is to say that Christ is speaking with a forked tongue. So either you are right in your interpretation or Christ's words allude to the possibility that a believer can be deceived unless they REMAIN in Christ. Now whom are you going to believe, your biased interpretation or Christ's clear words of caution to BELIEVERS?

When I speak of Christians being deceived by false teachings - and we see it all the time. But properly believing teachings and doctrine are not what make a person a Christian. A Christian is one who has faith in Christ. Jesus spent a lot of time correcting false understandings amongst His followers. When I speak of self-deception IN RELATION TO SALVATION, I'm saying that people need to examine their hearts and minds - to make certain that they didn't just says some words and a prayer that didn't truly reflect their hearts and minds desire and submittance for and to Christ (faith!).

Bav: Hebrews 12:2 confirms He perfects our faith and another action that we must do...fix our eyes on Jesus.

Hebrews 12:2: "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith"

And so what exactly do you think it means that JESUS is the founder and PERFECTER of our faith?" Because if it's not permanent, it's not perfected. And only a perfected faith saves. Only a perfected faith is sufficient. So is this work of Jesus or not? (our faith - as "He who began a good work in you" will also "bring it to COMPLETION"). Is Jesus the "Perfecter of our faith or NOT?" Is there such a thing as temporary perfection - with perfection being the culmination of the promise of ETERNAL life?

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:40 pm

Bav: Then again, your point above is to say that Christ is speaking with a forked tongue. So either you are right in your interpretation or Christ's words allude to the possibility that a believer can be deceived unless they REMAIN in Christ. Now whom are you going to believe, your biased interpretation or Christ's clear words of caution to BELIEVERS?

When I speak of Christians being deceived by false teachings - and we see it all the time. But properly believing teachings and doctrine are not what make a person a Christian. A Christian is one who has faith in Christ. Jesus spent a lot of time correcting false understandings amongst His followers. When I speak of self-deception IN RELATION TO SALVATION, I'm saying that people need to examine their hearts and minds - to make certain that they didn't just says some words and a prayer that didn't truly reflect their hearts and minds desire and submittance for and to Christ (faith!).

You avoided my question...but I understand why. Is Christ speaking to false believers or to believers?

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:40 pm Hebrews 12:2: "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith"

And so what exactly do you think it means that JESUS is the founder and PERFECTER of our faith?" Because if it's not permanent, it's not perfected. And only a perfected faith saves. Only a perfected faith is sufficient. So is this work of Jesus or not? (our faith - as "He who began a good work in you" will also "bring it to COMPLETION"). Is Jesus the "Perfecter of our faith or NOT?" Is there such a thing as temporary perfection - with perfection being the culmination of the promise of ETERNAL life?

Christ being the founder of our faith is that we cannot have faith at all if it wasn't FIRST given by God to have. Hence our own will. Perfecter means our faith is flawed.

But again, you contradict yourself. Is your faith permanent or are you still mortal and incur ramifications from false teachers.

You really NEED to pick what you're going to stand on because so far, you're proclaiming Jesus does it all, yet acknowledging that you're still mortal and can be swayed by false teacher.

My position is that Jesus does it all and that we can ONLY put our flawed faith in Him because He's given us the ability to choose...and if we REMAIN in Him, HE will remain in us. If we believe, we will be saved. If our faith works, then it is useful faith, if we love Him, then we'll keep His commands...etc.

So which is it?
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Bav: You avoided my question...but I understand why. Is Christ speaking to false believers or to believers?

Irrelevant to my point.

Bav: Christ being the founder of our faith is that we cannot have faith at all if it wasn't FIRST given by God to have. Hence our own will. Perfecter means our faith is flawed.

If one HAS faith, how is that faith flawed? You either have it or you do not. There is NO flawed faith in Christ. But even if you hold your flawed faith contention to mean that it's not strong enough or that it could falter - what the heck do you think it means to say Christ PERFECTS our faith? Again, is something God has PERFECTED somehow deficient or on shaky ground? You are really missing the immense defect in your argument!

Bav: You really NEED to pick what you're going to stand on because so far, you're proclaiming Jesus does it all, yet acknowledging that you're still mortal and can be swayed by false teacher.

Why do you think not only Jesus, but particularly the Apostle Paul, spent so much time correcting errors of belief - errors that SAVED persons are prone to. Note Paul frequently addresses believers with such corrections.

Bav: My position is that Jesus does it all and that we can ONLY put our flawed faith in Him because He's given us the ability to choose...and if we REMAIN in Him, HE will remain in us. If we believe, we will be saved. If our faith works, then it is useful faith, if we love Him, then we'll keep His commands...etc.

Nuances don't seem to bother you? Yes, God gives us a choice - we must choose. BUT AFTER we have made our choice, God's Spirit enters us and He completes what He started - or don't you believe what Paul says? And you have it backwards from what John and Paul say. You: "if we REMAIN in Him, HE will remain in us." Paul and John: If He is in you, you are not only in Him, but you are so forever.

Paul in Philippians: "And I am sure of this, that HE who began a good work in you WILL bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Is Paul mistaken??? Does God need our help to complete a faith already had?

1 John 3 6: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

What is some future rejection of Christ but a continuation of sin - which Scripture says NO Christian will do, or was ever saved to begin with!

1 John 3:9: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed REMAINS in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

So, what do you think that means? It specifically says that in God's eyes, NO saved person ("born of God) will continue to sin. Rejection of Christ is a sin - you say this is possible. In fact, God holds no Christian accountable for any further sin. Yes, we can and do continue to "sin" - but God sees us a pure and undefiled. Note also, that the above verse emphasizes why we can no longer sin (in God's eyes) - "Because God's seed REMAINS in them." Remains means ONGOING, no return to when His seed was not in them.

1 John 5:18: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."

Once one is born again of God he "does not" continue to sin - how much clearer can that be? And how is that possible - "God keeps them safe" - this is why one stays saved, this is why the cannot sin again - not meaning they will never do wrong again, but that they have accepted the One Who paid the penalty for all wrongdoing of Believers - so as that they will no longer be accused of sin!

1 John 2:23: "No one who denies the Son HAS the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

What does that say - how much clearer need it be? It is impossible for one who already has the Son / Father to deny God!

Again, John declares: "For IF they had belonged to us, they WOULD have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Is John wrong? That these people APPEARING to follow Christ, really were never saved, as John says this abandonment of mere appearances ("their going") is PROOF that "NONE of them belonged to us."

These many verses directly refute that once saved, one will abandon their faith in Christ or can further sin in God's eyes. A subsequent rejection of any supposed faith would be sin - which Scripture says Christians will no longer do.

As Ripley would say, "Believe it or not!"

Crud...I had almost completed a reply...I accidently clicked the 'kill window' button. Grr.
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Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:15 pm

Bav: You avoided my question...but I understand why. Is Christ speaking to false believers or to believers?

Irrelevant to my point.

Sure, but since this is a discussion, I think it is relevant to my point.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:15 pm As Ripley would say, "Believe it or not!"

As I said, I lost my whole reply, but suffice to say for the moment;

As James would say, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
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When Jesus was dying on the cross He said ‘it is finished’.
This wasn’t a selfish proclamation, like I’m done here. It was the fulfilment of His purpose. Faultless, without Sin, like a lamb to the slaughter.
The most powerful being to ever walk this earth, offered Himself as a sacrifice. He was beaten and humiliated, nailed to a cross and left to die. Critics of Christianity argue that if He was who He claimed to be Jesus would have kicked some serious butt that day.
But He did.
Satan had no claim, the perfect Lamb of God sacrificed for the atonement of Sin.
That changed forever the playing field.
Redemption, the biblical term uses two meanings...“agorazo” means to buy or buy out. And ‘Lutro’ to grant freedom.
To buy and grant freedom.
It is not finished if that freedom is conditional.
The finality that Jesus spoke of is why in redemption we are free. Brought through blood and sanctified by ownership in the fellowship and family of Christ.
There’s no frivolity in it, Jesus paid a hefty price. We are saved by and through Him alone, through no works of our doing but because He brought us on Calvary and granted us freedom.

melanie wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:49 am When Jesus was dying on the cross He said ‘it is finished’.
This wasn’t a selfish proclamation, like I’m done here. It was the fulfilment of His purpose. Faultless, without Sin, like a lamb to the slaughter.
The most powerful being to ever walk this earth, offered Himself as a sacrifice. He was beaten and humiliated, nailed to a cross and left to die. Critics of Christianity argue that if He was who He claimed to be Jesus would have kicked some serious butt that day.
But He did.
Satan had no claim, the perfect Lamb of God sacrificed for the atonement of Sin.
That changed forever the playing field.
Redemption, the biblical term uses two meanings...“agorazo” means to buy or buy out. And ‘Lutro’ to grant freedom.
To buy and grant freedom.
It is not finished if that freedom is conditional.
The finality that Jesus spoke of is why in redemption we are free. Brought through blood and sanctified by ownership in the fellowship and family of Christ.
There’s no frivolity in it, Jesus paid a hefty price. We are saved by and through Him alone, through no works of our doing but because He brought us on Calvary and granted us freedom.

Mel,

When you put your mind to it, you can actually say some brilliant things.