Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:31 pm
Basically my replies were:
*How do you know there can only be one eternal thing,
*How do you know that which is eternal cannot be material
I know because you have proven time and again that you have no concept of what logic is even though you pretend otherwise. From time to time I engage in your threads hoping to benefit other readers. A long time ago I lost hope of having a rational conversation with you. It is sad but true.
So once again, for the benefit of others:
*How do you know there can only be one eternal thing,
I (or any aristotelian/classical/scholastic philosopher) never said there can only be one eternal. In fact, Aquinas' five ways are predicated on this very assumption, that it CANNOT be shown from reason alone that the universe (i.e. matter and energy) is not eternal. That is precisely why he formulated his 5 ways from the perspective of essentially ordered causal series (here and now), rather than accidentally ordered causal series (temporal).
- Can matter and energy be eternal? YES (insomuch as it cannot be shown otherwise from reason alone)
- Does that change the fact that the unmoved more must be one and only one? NO
- Why(1)? Because matter and energy are still contingent (though possibly eternal). They change (form, location, composition, etc). Anything that changes owes its change to another (in an essential or even ontological sense). And from essentially ordered causal series we know change MUST start with an unchanging agent, otherwise we have an infinite regress making change impossible.
- Why(2)? Because from the Principle of sufficient reason and the law of non-contradiction everything must have an explanation and one explanation must be absolutely necessary, otherwise nothing is explained (books on a shelf, shelf on brackets, brackets attached to a wall, but wall attached to what, nothing?).
There are many more WHYs but that's a good summary
*How do you know that which is eternal cannot be material
I've already explained that matter and energy cannot be shown from reason alone NOT to be eternal but that's not what you meant to ask. What you meant to ask is more fundamental, i.e. if matter is eternal, why can't it be the unmoved mover?
Well for one, matter/energy is NEVER unmoved so right off the bat it is disqualified as the unmoved mover. Can it be thought as the uncaused cause? And once again, the answer is a resounding NO. Because matter is contingent and any contingent thing is a mixture of actuality and potentiality (this is another why(3) by the way). For an uncaused cause to be just that, it must pure actuality with no potential whatsoever. For it had any potential it would depend on something else to actualize that potential and, therefore, would not be the uncaused cause after all.
The uncaused cause and unmoved mover must be pure actuality, immutable (unchanging), and atemporal. Those are some of the attributes that we can deduce from reason alone, there are others.
Can there be more than one pure actuality? NO
Because if there were more than one, it would mean they are somehow distinguishable, some feature in one is lacking in the other. But if a feature is lacking in one it would mean there is some potential in it that can be actualized. But if there is potential to be actualized it would mean it is not pure actuality to begin with.
And pure actualities that are indistinguishable are one and the same, therefore there is only one pure actuality.
And all of that from logic, go figure. Theists actually championing logic and reason.
