Evidence for God from Science

Will do on Monday. Looking forward to it.

God Bless...

puritan lad wrote:Will do on Monday. Looking forward to it.

God Bless...

So am I. You seem a a foe worthy of my foil, and I have been impressed by the general manner of your posts here. Have a good weekend, and God bless.

I got it done, or at least a good start. Look at the attached Word Document. The Trumpets and Bowls are parenthetical descriptions of the same judgements as the Seals, in more detail. This should be a good start. Any objections so far?

Thanks. Time for a new thread.

Ugh.

First of all, most of people's arguments here against preterism have been refuted on http://www.tektonics.org/esch/eschatology.html and several other sites (try Dee Dee Warren's site as well).

And just because Dispensationalism is this generation's fad doesn't make it true (same with Macro-Evolution).

I think when people finally realize that no progress is being made concerning futurist beliefs then Dispensationalism will erode and maybe more people will consider preterism.

If you think a preterist interpretation is [love] up then you can go ahead and say the same about almost every other end-times doctrine.

Ark~Magic wrote:UGH, you people are so annoying.

First of all, most of people's arguments here against preterism have been refuted on http://www.tektonics.org/esch/eschatology.html and several other sites (try Dee Dee Warren's site as well).

Been there, done that.

And just because Dispensationalism is this generation's fad doesn't make it true (same with Macro-Evolution).

I agree. I'mn not a Dispensationalist.

I think when people finally realize that no progress is being made concerning futurist beliefs then Dispensationalism will erode and maybe more people will consider preterism.

I'm not a Futurist at all. But I do think that Praterism will continue to garner converts as people's faith falls away, and the Praeterists continue to use scare tactics to enlist.

If you think a preterist interpretation is [love] up then you can go ahead and say the same about almost every other end-times doctrine.

I don't think we can. Certain statements regarding prophecy can be verified or falisified. Historicism is a great example.

Fortigurn,

Can you get a little more "specific" in this?

Fortigurn wrote:But I do think that Praterism will continue to garner converts as people's faith falls away, and the Praeterists continue to use scare tactics to enlist.

Scare Tactics? What scare tactics?

puritan lad wrote:Fortigurn,

Can you get a little more "specific" in this?

Fortigurn wrote:But I do think that Praterism will continue to garner converts as people's faith falls away, and the Praeterists continue to use scare tactics to enlist.

Scare Tactics? What scare tactics?

Like this, and especially this.

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:Fortigurn,

Can you get a little more "specific" in this?

Fortigurn wrote:But I do think that Praterism will continue to garner converts as people's faith falls away, and the Praeterists continue to use scare tactics to enlist.

Scare Tactics? What scare tactics?

Like this, and especially this.

I didn't see any "scare tactics" in either page, so perhaps you'll do me a kindness and point them out for me.

In any case, both writers are heretical "hyper-preterists".

puritan lad wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:Fortigurn,

Can you get a little more "specific" in this?

Fortigurn wrote:But I do think that Praterism will continue to garner converts as people's faith falls away, and the Praeterists continue to use scare tactics to enlist.

Scare Tactics? What scare tactics?

Like this, and especially this.

I didn't see any "scare tactics" in either page, so perhaps you'll do me a kindness and point them out for me.

I suppose you don't have any problem with this:

Are we "bible believers" period, or believers in the bible ONLY if it can be independently corroborated through a non-inspired source?

The fact is that those who doubt an AD 70 parousia are exercising a secularist mindset that is devoid of the influence of the Holy Spirit speaking in the scriptures.

Or this:

"The idea of a second coming is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a Messiah, or to fulfill any of the prophecies of the Torah or the Prophets. The idea is purely a Christian invention, with no foundation in the Bible."

[Orthodox Rabbi writing "Was Jesus the Messiah Let's Examine the Facts," in The Real Messiah (reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973 Tammuz 5733, No. 40), 46-47.)]

In that second link there are many such quotes. The idea is to scare people into Praeterism.

In any case, both writers are heretical "hyper-preterists".

There's not a great deal of difference between you and them, let's face it.

There's not a great deal of difference between you and them, let's face it.

id call a spiritual vs. a bodily resurrection a great deal of difference.

bob2010 wrote:

There's not a great deal of difference between you and them, let's face it.

id call a spiritual vs. a bodily resurrection a great deal of difference.

I'd call one or two doctrines here and there a slight difference, especially when it results in the same effect on one's Christian life.

Fortigurn wrote:In that second link there are many such quotes. The idea is to scare people into Praeterism.

Easily scared??? Well, it didn't work on me.

Fortigurn wrote:

In any case, both writers are heretical "hyper-preterists".

There's not a great deal of difference between you and them, let's face it.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement. Are you suggesting that the endtimes views of hyper-preterists and postmillennialists are one and the same. Sorry Fortigurn, but that is ridiculous.

puritan lad wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:In that second link there are many such quotes. The idea is to scare people into Praeterism.

Easily scared??? Well, it didn't work on me.

Well no one is going to admit it, are they? You had to have a pretty good reason for rejecting the historic eschatology of the Reformed faith.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement. Are you suggesting that the endtimes views of hyper-preterists and postmillennialists are one and the same. Sorry Fortigurn, but that is ridiculous.

No, I didn't say they are one and the same. Please read my posts.

After reading this thread concerning Preterism, I would like to share why I left Preterism behind. I am neither a Futurist, nor millenniumist either. Let me explain why and what I believe if you all would be so kind to permit.

In Matthew 24:3, three things were asked and Jesus answers these three questions, when will the temple stones be torn down, what is the sign of Jesus' coming, and what will the end of the age be like. Just like anyone, the people in Jesus' time wanted to know — when and how this will all end. They did not ask; show us what the next 40 years will be but rather what will be the end of the age — or time. Like many today do.

Jesus goes on and answers these inquiries in an enigma in Matthew chapter 24 and 25. Many have tried to interpret these in the light of their own generation and time. Much has been argued over the meaning of the phrase — end of age. Still nothing satisfactory is gleaned.

Why I left Preterism was due largely to a question posed to me many years ago by a wise old Christian man. Now, on this forum site — I would be considered an old geezer due to my age and the past 25 years of conversion. So let this old Geezer speak.

The question that I was asked was this: If the Jews returned to Israel and became a nation in one day on May 1, in the year 1092 AD, what would be the Preterist's doctrine now? Would it have changed? What would be Edward's, Finney's, Calvin's, all the others views? I could not answer this question at the time but it caused me to reassess my former stance.

The point was clear people interpret the end time scriptures according to their generation, time, and world view. However, Jesus gives certain clues, all within the confines of scriptures, of the end times. He does not spell it out, but keeps the meanings veiled. Certain clear cut events uncover the meanings of the text as time marches on.

I will admit, I do not understand all the deep meanings of Matthew chapter 24 and 25 and the rest of end time prophecy as it remains an enigma to me. Some parts are clearer than others but it still remains veiled. One part is certain and that is Israel and the Jewish people: they exist, they are here, they have a nation, they were scattered twice, they were re-gathered twice, the nation of Israel was made in one day, and the Jewish people have not been abandoned by God (Romans 11:1-2) nor have they been exterminated as many may wish. Many try to explain this away, but they cannot. The Jewish people remain God's people to this day for His purpose and prophetic will.

What is my view if I am no longer a Preterist, a Futurist, nor a millenniumist? I believe in this: “Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” James 1:22 NKJV

Preterist doctrine lulls one asleep as everything has already happened that has happened. Nero and the rest of history explain it all away. Yawn, time to go to sleep; However, Jesus tells us in Luke 21:36 concerning the end of days, “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

That is my position — obey Christ and pray in simple faith and be doers of His word. I do not have all the prophetic answers, nor will I ever claim that I have the inside scoop on the predictive future. Just the wisdom of an old geezer: obey Christ and pray in simple faith and be doers of His word as it is commanded us in Like 21:36.

Call me a fool or what you like. I am a simple Luke 21:36 Christian, that's all. I do not claim I understand what Jesus means by this one way or another other than — pray and keep watch that your lamp is filled with oil, lit, and shining bright and not be lulled asleep (Matthew 25:1-13). Jesus and the end of days will certainly come, when that is, for me remains unknown.

What manner of escape Jesus promises to those that pray remains an enigma to me. All I know to do is: “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man,” Luke 21:36 — NKJV. So, in simple faith I watch and pray as Jesus commands.
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