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Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:39 pm
by Jbuza
ryo dokomi wrote: know that GOD can and DESIRES to change HIS people.
I'm not sure where you get this teaching. I think God desires that His people change, and that they can; Which isn't the same thing. If God changed you would you have a free will?
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:24 pm
by ryo dokomi
well i believe Matthew 26:41 "...The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." and i see that as that my spirit is willing to give up this sin, but my flesh says 'no i like it and i wont give it up' however Phil. 4:13 "i can do ALL things though Christ who strengthens me." so i see it as that yes i can do all things, but it is only with the LORD. and without Him i wont be able to change. so in a way it is the LORD who changes us.
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:27 pm
by ryo dokomi
sorry forgot about the question..
yes it is free will because we have to be willing to give it up.. and we have to ask the LORD without doubting and it will be given to us, he will do what we ask. He gives us the desires of our hearts and if our desire is to really be delivered of homosexuality then we ask Him to deliver us and He will do it...but there is not way, i think, that any person can change their sexual preferance. i mean i have tried for years, but with no success. but when God found me, he started to change me.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:19 am
by Jbuza
ryo dokomi wrote:sorry forgot about the question..
yes it is free will because we have to be willing to give it up.. and we have to ask the LORD without doubting and it will be given to us, he will do what we ask. He gives us the desires of our hearts and if our desire is to really be delivered of homosexuality then we ask Him to deliver us and He will do it...but there is not way, i think, that any person can change their sexual preferance. i mean i have tried for years, but with no success. but when God found me, he started to change me.
So your waiting for God to remove the desires? I guess I misunderstood you before; I think I understand what you are saying. With the strength of God to lean on anything is possible for you. He who has started a good work in us is faithful to finish it.
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:04 pm
by syaorankun
Not genetic in the sense that it's inherited, but genetic in the sense that it's a genetic mistake that may have taken place in the womb due to an injury or complication. Also, it's believed that environmental factors and self-will play a role.
I thought this whole statement was rather peculiar. Genetic "mistakes" cannot happen in the womb due to injury or complication. Unless your definition of injury is very broad. Should a genetic mistake occur to the fetus, the chances are extremely slim that it would be born alive.
Anyone with knowledge in biology should also know that it's illogical to think that there's an almighty "one gene" that can determine something as complex as a behavior. In eye color alone, there are 10 genes that determine the trait. With something such as behavior, infinitely more complex than eye color, it's obvious that this "one gene" theory can be thrown out the window.
Also, the chances that one change in the gene could result in something such as homosexuality is laughable. The chances that a fetus with a DNA mutation in the early developmental stages (think blastocyst or zygote) survives is extremely slim. Should it survive, it would almost undoubtedly be scarred with horrible physical and mental disablities.
It is true that DNA governs how proteins are made and how the brain is made. But in my opinion, a mind is a blank slate in the earliest stages of life. DNA absolutely cannot determine behavior.
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:56 pm
by thereal
It is true that DNA governs how proteins are made and how the brain is made. But in my opinion, a mind is a blank slate in the earliest stages of life. DNA absolutely cannot determine behavior.
It has long been known that changes in genetic makeup can cause detectable behavioral differences. Most of the examples I know of are from
Drosophila sp. in which a single change in the genome caused violent behavioral reactions to substances not observed in unaltered individuals. Of course, these behaviors are assumed to be related to concurrent physiological responses to the introduced substances, but behavior is absolutely effected. Also, if you consider the mind to be a blank slate early in life, how do you explain instinctive behavior?
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:06 am
by BGoodForGoodSake
thereal wrote:It is true that DNA governs how proteins are made and how the brain is made. But in my opinion, a mind is a blank slate in the earliest stages of life. DNA absolutely cannot determine behavior.
It has long been known that changes in genetic makeup can cause detectable behavioral differences. Most of the examples I know of are from
Drosophila sp. in which a single change in the genome caused violent behavioral reactions to substances not observed in unaltered individuals. Of course, these behaviors are assumed to be related to concurrent physiological responses to the introduced substances, but behavior is absolutely effected. Also, if you consider the mind to be a blank slate early in life, how do you explain instinctive behavior?
I suppose infants take suckling 101 after being spanked and before being presented to the mother.
It's a nice 15 min video, well produced.
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:04 pm
by Cougar
I am coming into this discussion a little late, so forgive me if this has already been discussed.
Regarding homosexuality being genetic, in biological theory it is impossible to occur. Because two males or two females cannot biologically produce offspring, this gene could never proliferate in a population, i.e. each individual would have no reproductive fitness, thus this "gene" would be detrimental to an individual. This could be called a maladaptation, of which there are many present in animal behavior. Another supposed maladaptation could be altruism. This, in theory, could not proliferate in a population either for the same reasons. But this does not mean apparent altruistic (or homosexual) behaviors do not occur. So, although I do not think homosexuality is genetic (meaning you are born that way and you have a specific gene to attribute the behavior to) I do think that psychological factors and environmental factors within someone's life could interact with their genetic makeup and create homosexual behavior, among many other behaviors.
Does the origin of someone's behavior determine how they should be treated, though? Should a person's sexual orientation make a difference in how they are viewed by others?
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:06 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
Does the origin of someone's behavior determine how they should be treated, though? Should a person's sexual orientation make a difference in how they are viewed by others?
Well, according to your worldview...there is no right and wrong, so why not beat gays to death...or straight people for that matter. I wait your self-defeating reply
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:07 pm
by thereal
Well, according to your worldview...there is no right and wrong, so why not beat gays to death...or straight people for that matter. I wait your self-defeating reply
Did I miss something here, or did you just decide for yourself what her world view is? Maybe it was posted elsewhere, because I don't see it here, yet you seem confident that
you know it!
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:11 pm
by Cougar
Kmart,
How did you come to that conclusion?
My point was, that it shouldn't matter if a behavior, such as homosexuality, is genetic or soley behavioral... either fact should not detract from the person as a whole. Would one explanation be "OK" and the other not? Meaning, who cares whether it is genetic or environmental... why does it matter?
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:21 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
thereal wrote:Well, according to your worldview...there is no right and wrong, so why not beat gays to death...or straight people for that matter. I wait your self-defeating reply
Did I miss something here, or did you just decide for yourself what her world view is? Maybe it was posted elsewhere, because I don't see it here, yet you seem confident that
you know it!
Is there...something wrong with that?
But seriously, I might have goofed, it is true. I went off a vague notion I thought I had verified previously. I mean outside Judaism and Christianity, you dont' have objective morality. I mean, I believe Buddhism makes the claim from what I recall..but no source for it.
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:22 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
Cougar wrote:Kmart,
How did you come to that conclusion?
My point was, that it shouldn't matter if a behavior, such as homosexuality, is genetic or soley behavioral... either fact should not detract from the person as a whole. Would one explanation be "OK" and the other not? Meaning, who cares whether it is genetic or environmental... why does it matter?
But you leave out psychological! And it matters because homosexuality is a self-destructive life-style maybe.
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:14 pm
by Cougar
Homosexuality, in priniciple, is self-destructive? In what way?
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:35 pm
by Judah
Cougar, you may be interested in reading this
medical paper which describes some of the risks and actual physical harm caused by homosexual practices.
The paper also comments on the psychological or mental health risks that result from homosexuality - higher rates than for the population norm of psychiatric illness, etc.
Admittedly, it is more difficult to define psychological harm because you may wish to make some distinction between harm that is intrinsic to homeosexuality per se, and that which is caused by the effect of social stigma attached to homosexuality. However, these may still be bundled together as the over all experience of being gay, and separation between them considered rather a moot point.
I will be interested in your response to this paper if you choose to read it.