Evidence for God from Science

I'm not saying that the Law in it self is done away with, but it has been fulfilled in the body of Jesus. Keep in mind that the ceremonial laws such as (tithing, sacrifice offerings, the dietary laws, the sabbath, new moon oberservations...etc) were a SIGN of the coming Christ and his relationship to his people. Now that he came in the flesh, died, and has been resurrected we should no longer observe these laws. We are now responsible to take on the character of our God which is holiness. And even the bible (not me) says that the entire law is summed up in one word and that is Love. If you love God then you will love your neighbor, you won't covet his/her possessions, you won't kill, you won't steal, you won't committ adultury, you won't fornicate, you won't commit homosexuality, you will help those in need...etc. the entire law hangs on that ONE principle, no longer on a tablet.. you understand?

So you don't recognise the contradictions in your own post?

What's the practical difference between done away and fulfilled?

You say we should no longer keep the laws of God but in the same breath you say if we love God we won't break them.

The law of God is entirely about love - it is love and it teaches us how to love God and how to love our fellowman. It was so in the OT and in the NT.

To remove the law from use is to remove love.

BTW, the laws of God were never confined or limited to stone tablets. They have always existed because they are spiritual principles as the Apostle Paul said.

R7-12

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It's not a presumption, it's a logical deduction based on the written word.

It follows as day the night that if observance of God's commandments was not required, the church would not have to be concerned about being wrongfully judged on how they kept them.

If the commandments did not have to be observed by the church then Colossians 2:16 did not have to be written. It's just that simple.

R7-12

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I suppose my next question is somewhat related to what Byblos asked authentic earlier.

If sin is the transgression of the law, and Scripture clearly says it is (1 John 3:4), then to break the law is to commit sin. And, if we are commanded to no longer live sinfully, that is, we are to avoid sin, then we would have to live in accordance with the law to do that.

Can we avoid sin without observing the law since the Biblical definition of committing sin is breaking the law of God?

R7-12

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Why do you refer to the Mosaic law?

What is it to you and how is it different from the law of God?

Yes, whatever is not of faith is sin....and.... sin is breaking the law, therefore, breaking the law is not acting on faith.

And conversely, to exercise faith is to keep the law of God.

If we trust God we will do what He commands - that is true faith.

R7-12

Byblos wrote:

authentic wrote:I'm not saying that the Law in it self is done away with, but it has been fulfilled in the body of Jesus. Keep in mind that the ceremonial laws such as (tithing, sacrifice offerings, the dietary laws, the sabbath, new moon oberservations...etc) were a SIGN of the coming Christ and his relationship to his people. Now that he came in the flesh, died, and has been resurrected we should no longer observe these laws. We are now responsible to take on the character of our God which is holiness. And even the bible (not me) says that the entire law is summed up in one word and that is Love. If you love God then you will love your neighbor, you won't covet his/her possessions, you won't kill, you won't steal, you won't committ adultury, you won't fornicate, you won't commit homosexuality, you will help those in need...etc. the entire law hangs on that ONE principle, no longer on a tablet.. you understand?

To a large extent I do agree with you. What I'm not clear about is what happens if you do fall out of 'love' so-to-speak and you do commit one or more of those transgressions, what happens then?

well, i will say this God knows that we are still in the flesh and from time to time we will do things out of his will. For the scriptures say that if you look at a woman lustfully, you commit adultury with her. And many of us (probably all of us) committ that and many other sins in our minds. This is the reason Christ came, because God knew that no man can perfectly keep the 'Law'. God hold us accountable for what we think and do. So now that Christ has redeemed us, we can freely seek God through striving to put our flesh into submission to the new Spirit within us. It is not easy for judge everyone who is saved, actually it is impossible to pin-point every single saved person in the world. But God knows, he knows the intentions of the heart and our motives. Even if you want to do right, you will find your self battling with the desires of your flesh. i'm not sure if that is what you were looking for.

R7-12 wrote:Why do you refer to the Mosaic law?

What is it to you and how is it different from the law of God?

Yes, whatever is not of faith is sin....and.... sin is breaking the law, therefore, breaking the law is not acting on faith.

And conversely, to exercise faith is to keep the law of God.

If we trust God we will do what He commands - that is true faith.

R7-12

Let me clarify, the law in the way it was carried out in the old testament is done away with. The Old Covenant was a physical law, with physical blessings and direct physical cursings. Example, the old covenant tells us if any one is found committing adultry then they must be stoned to death. But Jesus said if any man look at a woman lustfully, he committs adultry with her. Jesus came and gave us the true meaning of what the law really was. The point is that no man can perfectly keep the law, thus we are all condemned and prepared for hell. This is why we needed a savior, because sacrificing bullocks, and turtle doves, and heffers...etc was not a good enough sacrifice for God. So God took it upon himself to, put on flesh and with that flesh become the final sacrifice for all that would believe. (This is the foundation of our belief, do you not know this)?

The pharrisees challanged Christ and his disciples when they didn't wash their hands before they ate (ceremonial cleansing). And Jesus corrected them saying that "its not what goes into a man's mouth that makes him unclean, its what comes out".. Again, Christ giving the true explaination of the Law.

The thing that continues to baffle me is that, God grace offers us a life that takes us away from the bondage of the rituals, ceremonies, and regulations of the Ceremonial law. Yet you still want to continue in the very thing that can't save you. How is it that you are a Christian? What was the meaning of Christ dying on the Cross? I suppose what Paul spoke in detail about, his people being bond by the Law - he must have been in error, even though he was a student and master of the law.

When you hear us say that we have liberty, the first thing you think is that , we are talking about freedom to sin. I agree that we are to be holy like our father, this is what it means to be a Christian , it means to be like Christ. So to imply that we are creating some license to sin, is incorrect and not biblical. But i don't know how it is you know so much of the scriptures but can't see that we are not bound by the law of Moses?

What is the use continuing with this, i will just pray for you.

And I you.

authentic wrote: When you hear us say that we have liberty, the first thing you think is that , we are talking about freedom to sin. I agree that we are to be holy like our father, this is what it means to be a Christian , it means to be like Christ. So to imply that we are creating some license to sin, is incorrect and not biblical. But i don't know how it is you know so much of the scriptures but can't see that we are not bound by the law of Moses?

Well said.


Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

R7-12 The law is still there and will be to the Lords day. It's just that we are no longer obliged to follow the rituals of the law. Being led by the Spirit to obey the 'law of our hearts (that which God has written in our hearts).

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


Through Christ we are redeemed by His blood. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. And that He did, in spades. Glory be to Him that sent Him, forever and Ever Amen!

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

authentic wrote:The thing that continues to baffle me is that, God grace offers us a life that takes us away from the bondage of the rituals, ceremonies, and regulations of the Ceremonial law. Yet you still want to continue in the very thing that can't save you. How is it that you are a Christian? What was the meaning of Christ dying on the Cross? I suppose what Paul spoke in detail about, his people being bond by the Law - he must have been in error, even though he was a student and master of the law.

R7-12 is not trying to be saved by the law at all! From the things that he has said he knows that the blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us...not the law. I also believe that what Jesus did on the cross took away my sins and is what saves me, but it didn't take away the law.

Rom. 8:3: 'For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,'

Matt. 5:18: 'For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.'

Heaven and Earth have not passed away, so we can assume that the Law is still with us. I disagree with the general concept that 'the Work of the Cross did away with the Law.' The Work of the Cross forgave our sins and enabled us to obtain His Nature. It didn't nullify God's Holy Law. Only by the Law can we know specifically, what is pleasing to God and what is not (Romans 7:7-16; 1st John 3:2-4).

I also wanted to ask why doing something that Jesus did is so bad? I mean isn't he our example...shouldn't we walk as he walked?

'And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His Commandments. The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His Word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.' (1st John 2:3-6)

Christians don't think much of it when other christians keep pagan feast days. But if one desires to walk in God's Holy Feast Days, then one is 'under the Law and going to Hell.' And you'll notice that there is not one shred of biblical evidence for Sunday, Christmas, Easter, etc. Not one!
If you really look into the holy days that God has given, you'll find out that they apply more for us today than they did back then. God has given us so many reminders and symbols to help us walk closer to him. Something that I have been looking into is tassels. At first I thought that it was the dumbest thing, but I now see that it is a reminder.

Numb 15:37 (NKJV) Again Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 38 "Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. 39 "And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of Yahweh and do them, and that you [may] not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, 40 "and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your Elohim.

So according to what God says, the purpose for the tassel is for us to look upon it and remember all of God's commandments and do them.

So every command that God gives has a purpose, he doesn't just make things up for us to obey. God cares about us and wants the best for us, just like parents do for their children. Children may not understand why their parents told them not to go out in the road, but it is only for their safety and because their parents care for them. The same is true about God, he cares about his people and he wants them to trust and obey him. If He is Lord of our Life, the King of Israel, then shouldn't He determine which days are holy for us and what foods we eat?

Christians don't think much of it when other christians keep pagan feast days. But if one desires to walk in God's Holy Feast Days, then one is 'under the Law and going to Hell.' And you'll notice that there is not one shred of biblical evidence for Sunday, Christmas, Easter, etc. Not one!
If you really look into the holy days that God has given, you'll find out that they apply more for us today than they did back then. God has given us so many reminders and symbols to help us walk closer to him. Something that I have been looking into is tassels. At first I thought that it was the dumbest thing, but I now see that it is a reminder.

Numb 15:37 (NKJV) Again Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 38 "Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. 39 "And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of Yahweh and do them, and that you [may] not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, 40 "and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your Elohim.

So according to what God says, the purpose for the tassel is for us to look upon it and remember all of God's commandments and do them.

So every command that God gives has a purpose, he doesn't just make things up for us to obey. God cares about us and wants the best for us, just like parents do for their children. Children may not understand why their parents told them not to go out in the road, but it is only for their safety and because their parents care for them. The same is true about God, he cares about his people and he wants them to trust and obey him. If He is Lord of our Life, the King of Israel, then shouldn't He determine which days are holy for us and what foods we eat?[/quote]

I think you are missing my point. First of all I don't celebrate Christmas, Easter, and Holloween.. Because i know its history. So don't think i'm just trying to go around looking for anything to point my finger at. But actually i believe its the opposite. My beef is with those who judge those in Christ, to say that they are hell bound or rebelling against God for not observing the ceremonial laws. Personally, i feel as though, if a person wants to observe a feast day or eat certain foods - that is their God given right to do so, who am i to judge God's servant. But usually, with those who follow strict rules they suggest that it is a binding law for everyone. And i'm here to share with you all that it is not biblical. I also agree that every law the God instituted had its purpose, the bible says that the 'Law' served as a shadow of the coming Christ. Now that Christ has come, there is no need for these things to be done, its like going backwards. Furthermore, i would just like to warn you that if you observe these laws-in a way to gain acceptance with God then you must keep it all, even if you keep all and miss one, you are in error. This that we are tell you is not based on private interpretation, this is plainly states numerous times throughout the holy scriptures. Paul dedicated an entire epistle to this very thing. The fact that he revealed himself in a human body, and sacrificed that very body so we can have liberty, shows that he loves us - a love that none of us can understand.

authentic wrote:My beef is with those who judge those in Christ, to say that they are hell bound or rebelling against God for not observing the ceremonial laws.

I have a question for you that I can't figure out. How do you know which laws are ceremonial and which ones aren't? Does the bible even break God's laws up into groups?

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.