Evidence for God from Science

OK, I think I am beginning to understand. NOW, I would ask then -- how can someone know that he has received this grace of Christ?

I would readily agree that it is based on God's promise to save those who place faith in Christ, and on that we base our assurance. My question, though remains: how does this play out in our lives? How is someone who is saved look? What difference does Jesus make in someone's life that is saved?

These are pressing questions.

Not to tell you what you believe, Dave, but I don't think you've thought your position through very well. You cannot base assurance on the promise of Christ in the same sense as to CP and me, because it is a diametrically opposed doctrine. Let me explain:

In Calvinism, as you know, a man's salvation is the complete work of God. Any responsibility on the part of man is inevitable (thus, irresistible grace). As PL made it so clear, salvation, for you, is based on election. As one Calvinist preacher I heard once said, which I've already quoted, "You don't believe to be saved; you believe because you are saved." Some may disagree, but there is a way in which that could be properly understood in the Calvinist system.

Now, if you are elected to believe, then salvation is, as noted, based on God's election. Thus, assurance must be based on election. The reason is simple: a person may delude themselves into thinking they believed when, in fact, they had not. And how is this possible? Because, whatever their intentions or understanding, they were not elect. Charles Templeton is a classic example of this, although I have friends as well who have totally rejected the faith they once claimed. During the time of their Christian walks, they were just as convinced as you or me of their salvation, and they would have argued vehemently with anyone who so much as suggested that their conviction was based on a faulty belief. You should be able to relate. Suppose, Dave, I say that you have not truly believed. You only think you have. You will argue, no? So did they.

You, therefore, must concede that it is POSSIBLE for a person who is not elect to possess a type of "faith" that is false. You can then appeal to texts like James 2:14ff to support your position. The doctrinal proof for this is that, again, salvation is based on election. Thus, there CAN BE NO ASSURANCE!

Let's contrast that with the system CP and I advocate, and you will see that it is VERY opposed to what you believe. It has often been referred to as "easy believism," although "simple believism" is a much better description. "Free Grace" is the name of the movement. In this system, a person knows their saved for the very simple reason that Jesus said if you believe His promise to save you, then you HAVE (present tense) eternal life. That life cannot be lost (that's part of the promise a person has to understand). Therefore, salvation is understanding the promise of Christ to save, and understanding the Christ who is making the offer, and then believing that. There is no sinners prayer. There is no repentance. There is no commitment to the Lordship of Christ. There is simple, mere belief, and that constitutes salvation. A person, then, can completely reject their faith and know intellectually that they still go to heaven on the assumption that their former faith was correct. I KNOW that I am going to heaven because Jesus told me that I will. And why? Because I believed His promise.

See, here's the primary difference in our position: in "simple believism", there is no such thing as non-saving faith. Faith is faith. The only question, for us, is what did you put your faith in? If the answer is anything other than the Promise of the Risen Christ, then you are in your sins. If you have believed Him, though--that is, taken Him at His Word--then you ARE saved.

We, therefore, soundly reject the doctrine of the Final Perseverance of the Saints. For you . . . for Calvinism in general . . . assurance of salvation is found in the fruit of one's labor. There is, then, no assurance. For us, assurance is based on the objective promise of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, you asked how this should play out. I've dealt with that question extensively in the following threads. None of them are long, so I suggest that you give them a read.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1681.html
http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1572.html
http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1790.html
http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1727.html

God bless

David Hewitt wrote:Fortigurn -- I am curious about something, and please indulge me -- how is it that YOU have assurance of salvation? Apparently it is different from how I've presented it, so I am wondering what you base yours on (Scripturally speaking).

It's pretty simple - I trust God to keep His promise. I do not believe I have any assurance of salvation if I abandon that promise.

Hey, Jac -- rather not. So then the preacher you cited said that salvation is based on election. You are not elect because you believe, but you believe because you are elect. I would indeed agree.

Why do I agree? Because, as I think you agreed with earlier, salvation does not consist solely of election, or regeneration, or faith. It includes all of these things; I posted the order in which they take place a few posts ago. I will readily agree that a person can have false faith. How can we know this? There are a host of Scriptures that deal with it! Romans 6:1 is one of them, but I would rather appeal to others.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

OK, what are we confessing? We confess Jesus not as Savior, but as LORD. If He is LORD, then He is Savior. The word for "Lord" as used in this verse is the word kurios.

I by no means advocate that someone is saved by works. God justifies based on faith, period. We are declared righteous by faith, period. However, I'll maintain, as Jesus did, that if we truly love Him (by the way, the most important commandment, see Matthew 22:37-38), we'll OBEY Him. We'll keep His commands.

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Joh 14:21 The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me. And the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father. I also will love him and will reveal Myself to him."

In verse 21, we have an emphatic demonstrative pronoun. It could be translated as "that is the one who loves Me." (RWP)

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'
Mat 7:24 "Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.

CLEARLY, Jesus indicates that there is someone who can have a false faith! He indicates that these people in question were people that He NEVER knew. If they didn't repent, turn from their sin and act on Jesus's word, they have no foundation.

OH, here and I thought there indeed was a compatibility... you are right, JAC!! There isn't one! You've DENIED what the Bible teaches! You say there is no repentance?!? Who are you kidding? Have you ever done a search on repentance in the New Testament? I'll just give you a few Scriptures:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

What does Jesus want here (never mind who this is talking about)? He wants them to "come to repentance"!

Luk 5:31 Jesus replied to them, "The healthy don't need a doctor, but the sick do.
Luk 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

What was the purpose of Jesus's coming as revealed in this text? He came to call "sinners to repentance"!

Luk 24:46 He also said to them, "This is what is written: the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead the third day,
Luk 24:47 and repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 You are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And look, I am sending you what My Father promised. As for you, stay in the city until you are empowered from on high."

This is Luke's version of the Great Commission. What is going to be preached (proclaimed) to all nations? REPENTANCE!

Act 26:13 At midday, while on the road, O king, I saw a light from heaven brighter than the sun, shining around me and those traveling with me.
Act 26:14 When we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Act 26:15 "But I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' "And the Lord replied: 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Act 26:16 But get up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and a witness of things you have seen, and of things in which I will appear to you.
Act 26:17 I will rescue you from the people and from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
Act 26:18 to open their eyes that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
Act 26:19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision.
Act 26:20 Instead, I preached to those in Damascus first, and to those in Jerusalem and in all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance.

See that? Jesus came to Paul and gave Him a vision to preach forgiveness that people would turn to God. Paul says that he was "not disobedient to the heavenly vision" and what did he do? He preached "that they should REPENT and turn to God, and do works worthy of REPENTANCE"! Forgiveness and repentance are tied together; we cannot separate them.

Fortigurn wrote:

David Hewitt wrote:Fortigurn -- I am curious about something, and please indulge me -- how is it that YOU have assurance of salvation? Apparently it is different from how I've presented it, so I am wondering what you base yours on (Scripturally speaking).

It's pretty simple - I trust God to keep His promise. I do not believe I have any assurance of salvation if I abandon that promise.

Ok, Fort, here's the problem. God gives us the grace we need to repent as well, and the grace to do righteousness. It is indeed expected, and if someone truly is saved, then it will be obvious that they will start being conformed to the image of Christ. If someone NEVER does this, then they were never saved; it is that simple. The Scriptures above testify to that.

As long as you all hold to these errant beliefs, saying that there is no need for repentance, then these discussions are pointless. I would then give you the charge that Jesus gave when He began His ministry:

Mat 4:17 From then on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, because the kingdom of heaven has come near!"

REPENT! Do you hear our Lord's call? REPENT!

We must get our theology from the WHOLE BIBLE and not pick out parts of it. We cannot simply say that there is no repentance when the Bible says that there is.

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over. I cannot speak for others, but I have no desire to continue.

SDG

Dave Hewitt

Dave, if you don't want to continue, that's fine with me. Again, this brings me back to the very original question of this post:

Is Calvinism heresy?

As Calvinism teaches that both repentence from sin and submission of life are NECESSARY for salvation, you have actually DENIED the gospel message. You have called Jesus a liar. Therefore, the answer is "yes", Calvinism is a heresy, and if anyone hopes to go to heaven on the "gospel" you present, they will find themselves away from God for eternity. Further, you will find yourself under the anathema of Gal. 1:8-9.

As for the verses you referenced, I've already dealt with them in the posts I referenced. I'll not go through it again here.

I Do appreciate this discussion, as it futher proves my arguments. Ignoring the original arguments with PL, we have seen:

1. Calvinism denies the assurance of salvation,
2. Calvinism denies the simplicity of the gospel.

These are enough to send me running screaming in the other direction. Dave, if you really are open minded, I would suggest you look into the doctrine of Free Grace. Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin are excellent places to begin, the latter having a ton of material at http://www.faithalone.org.

Now, hopefully, Dave, you see that I have studied Calvinism closely. If you are right, I am making a calculated decision to reject what Christ taught. I will be judged for it, but, at least, I have made my decision with a clean conscience. It is very clear to me, based on your exegesis of Scripture throughout this thread, that you are totally unfamiliar with Free Grace. If you are going to reject something, do it as I do: well informed. Remember James 3:1.

God bless

Jac3510,

Jac, I appreciate the debate, but I think we've exhausted the issue at this point and are getting a little testy. Calvinists do not deny the simplicity of the gospel. It is you who deny that Salvation results in repentance, and that those who do not believe (not a choice) will die in their sins. You deny the sovereignty of God, making man's will supreme. After all, according to you, Christ elects those and only those who choose to be "in Christ", despite the fact that no one can come to Christ unless the Father enables him, and that all that the Father gives to Christ will come.

One final question for my Arminian (and other "free-willers") to consider. Do you pray for your unsaved friends and relatives? Why? What good does it do? As Spurgeon correctly pointed out, you've probably heard a great number of Arminian sermons, but I doubt very seriously that you've ever heard an Arminian Prayer.

God Bless,

PL

PL:

As I said at the very outset of this, I am well aware that no one will change their mind. You're set on your theology, as I am on mine. My concern is for clarity. I have clearly laid out my position, even if it is one you still choose not to recognize. You can state it in as negative sense as you like, but for those reading this, they have my own explanations of the doctrine and can, thus, decide for themselves.

I do not deny that savlation results in repentance. I deny that salvation NECESSARILY results in repentance, and I deny that salvation is BASED ON repentance. In fact, I argue that a salvation based on repentance (that is, one in which repentance is required) is no salvation at all, because it is works based. Clearly, repentance is a work.

I do not deny the sovereignty of God. I do believe in unconditional election. God has chosen, in His sovereignty, to elect a group of individuals. Everyone in Christ will be elected, and were so from the foundation of the world based on the foreknowledge of God.

As for your question, I pray for my lost friends on a daily basis. But, I certainly pray differently than you do. My prayer is intercessory. I ask God for His patience and to hold of judgment. I ask Him for the mercy of fuller revelation and illumination, and for opportunities to present themselves in which that person can see Christ and His Gospel clearly.

In fact, I would argue that it is the Calvinist position that makes prayer pointless. If God has ALREADY chosen who will be saved, then why ask Him to save someone? Will He not save the one He chooses to? And if He chooses not to elect someone, can you change the mind of God? I can't quote on hearing an "Arminian prayer," but I can tell you that I offer intercessory prayers on behalf of my lost friends on a daily basis, that God might continue to reveal Himself to them. That's more than any Calvinist can do.

I will still offer a summation of the arguments presented in this thread, probably Wednesday or Thursday. Again, for those who read this, I want them to see very clearly what was said and why it was said. Thank you, sincerely, for the discussion. Thank you, also, for strengthening my personal faith in the simple Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, that any who would believe need only to believe, and that person has eternal life.

God bless

Since none has yet refuted my syllogism on security in Calvinism, Im going try another one.

According to Calvinism, God did not make provision for everyone to be saved. Therefore, accordingly, I can construct this syllogism

1.God did not make provision for everyone to be saved
2.All people that God wanted to be saved he made provision for their salvation
3. God does not want everyone to be saved

Here is the problem with this syllogism, point three is in direct disagreement with scripture. The Bible states"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:1-4 ESV) This verse PLAINLY and CONCISELY states God's desire for all men to be saved. The context here is Paul teaching the persecuted Christian community that it is proper to have spiritual concern for all people, even though such as kings that would appear to be an enemy of the church. Paul justifies the concern for these people by making an absolute statement, namely that God wants ALL MEN to be saved. I belive premise 2 in the above formula to be true. The faulty premise is premise one. Since God did make salvation available to all (I John 2:2, Rev 22:17) then it can be demonstrated that God does want all men to be saved.
In Christ
The country preacher
No creed but the Bible

This has been a great thread! Wish I could have added to it more.

The prior comment was made about how God selects using this example:

A group of 100 people in a park hear a loud speaker announcement declare, “that a team is needed on the baseball field - please come to the field to play on the team.” Only 24 people respond. The rest ignore the request. In other words, all 100 people in the park were called but only 24 accepted the call.

As I see it, this sums up Jac's and CP's argument. God calls all but not all will respond.

Yes, there is free will involved here as well as God selecting. God cannot not help but know everything and all things: He is God after all.

What would have happened if the loud speaker announcement was not made? There would have been no one on the team. God knows who will hear His call and who will not and can do whatever He deems with anyone in the entire park.

Deciding, Choosing, Faith, are not works of self effort. Self effort involves work and sweat. Decisions do not require this type of effort. God designed us to choose so He could call those he foreknew would respond to His word. He is sovereign and not enslaved to Human choice — He issues His call to engage our reason so we can choose.

Whatever choice we make, God already knew our response before we were born and can do with us all as He will. He can elect based on what He already knows about us all. Psalms 33:15 gives us a clue into what God does regarding this. It is there, you'll discover your answer only if you can honestly decipherer the riddle there.

God fashioned, preordained, the Human Heart. The Heart is the seat of human reason, feelings, and all the issues of life spring from it. He made the Heart to reason and feel. Why? For God foreknew with deep knowledge all our Deeds before they came to be and assigns each accordingly. Note the mystery of Psalms 33.
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David Hewitt wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

David Hewitt wrote:Fortigurn -- I am curious about something, and please indulge me -- how is it that YOU have assurance of salvation? Apparently it is different from how I've presented it, so I am wondering what you base yours on (Scripturally speaking).

It's pretty simple - I trust God to keep His promise. I do not believe I have any assurance of salvation if I abandon that promise.

Ok, Fort, here's the problem. God gives us the grace we need to repent as well, and the grace to do righteousness.

I happen to disagree. I don't believe that grace is some kind of supernatural power which forces a change of our heart and mind. Knowledge comes first, then belief and faith, and subsequently repentance. Grace is God's response to our repentance.

It is indeed expected, and if someone truly is saved, then it will be obvious that they will start being conformed to the image of Christ. If someone NEVER does this, then they were never saved; it is that simple. The Scriptures above testify to that.

I agree.

As long as you all hold to these errant beliefs, saying that there is no need for repentance, then these discussions are pointless.

I have never said that there is no need for repentance. I hold very firmly to the position that repentance is utterly essential.

REPENT! Do you hear our Lord's call? REPENT!

Unfortunately Christ's commandment means nothing to the Calvinist, who belives he has no power to obey it. Christ should have said 'Those of you whom God wishes to save, He will compel to repent - the rest of you might as well go home to eat, drink be merry and die'.

puritan lad wrote:
One final question for my Arminian (and other "free-willers") to consider. Do you pray for your unsaved friends and relatives? Why? What good does it do? As Spurgeon correctly pointed out, you've probably heard a great number of Arminian sermons, but I doubt very seriously that you've ever heard an Arminian Prayer.

God Bless,

PL

This is so simple, I wonder if you read anything I typed. Yes I pray for the unsaved. Why? Because the Holy Spirit convicts, and God does work differently with different people. You pray that God does not close the door on repentance, as He mentioned in Revelation 2:21.

Remeber, no one can come unless the Father draws? Whe pray that the Father not stop drawing! Give them more time to repent! Before the door closes for good.

Is this so hard to understand?

Jac3510 wrote:Dave, if you don't want to continue, that's fine with me. Again, this brings me back to the very original question of this post:

Is Calvinism heresy?

As Calvinism teaches that both repentence from sin and submission of life are NECESSARY for salvation, you have actually DENIED the gospel message. You have called Jesus a liar.

Wow, no. Paul taught those things. Unless you only want to quote a verse here or there and not reconcile everything he said in total. Also, Jesus commanded repentance and obedience. Those who don't repent, haven't even heard the Gospel at all. Like the Jews that didn't repent and Jesus said they were of their father the devil. This was right before this when He said:

Joh 8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

You are not a christian if you do not only believe but abide/remain/stay in His word and are obedient (Rom 1:5, 1 John 2:3, etc. etc.)

Sean2 wrote:This is so simple, I wonder if you read anything I typed.

LOLOL. Sean, I've been saying that exact same thing for months now. The answer is no, he hasn't "read" anything you've typed. He's skimmed it, picked a word here or there, and asserted his own ideas. No dialogue.

Puritan, so that's three . . .

Sean2 wrote:Wow, no. Paul taught those things. Unless you only want to quote a verse here or there and not reconcile everything he said in total. Also, Jesus commanded repentance and obedience. Those who don't repent, haven't even heard the Gospel at all. Like the Jews that didn't repent and Jesus said they were of their father the devil.

This particular thread is related to Calvinism, Sean, but I'll go ahead and say here that, as much as I'm not a Calvinist, I'm even less of an Arminian. Yes, Calvinism is a heresy, but so is Arminianism -- arguably worse. Should we start a thread on it?

I've dealt with the argument that repentance is necessary for salvation in several other threads. I encourage you to read through them.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1681.html
http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1572.html
http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1790.html
http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1727.html

In those, I pretty well lay out the position I hold to. As for the particular verse you cited . . .

• Joh 8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
  Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
  Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

This verse actually proves my point, Sean. Notice that verse 30 said they believed. At this point, these people are saved. They go to Heaven. John 3:16, 5:24, and 6:40 make this perfectly clear. For the record, I have over 100 verses right here that all state that belief is the ONLY condition for salvation.

Now, again, the Bible itself says that these people believed. So, we can't assume that this was a fake belief, or a superficial belief, or what not. These people have believed in Jesus. Now, talking to those who had believed, Jesus said if they obey Him, then they are His disciples. Is a disciple the same thing as a born again believer? Nope. In fact, Mark 8:34 makes the difference plain: ""If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." (NIV)

In this passage, Jesus is talking about something costly. But, salvation is by grace, and grace is free. So, Jesus is NOT talking about salvation in Mark 8. He is talking about discipleship. He then goes on to say that if we (believers) are ashamed of Him (reject discipleship), then He will be ashamed of us before the Father. Does that mean that we have lost our salvation? No, although I realize that as an Arminian you would take it that way. It does, though, mean a loss of rewards. It means that our Savior and Master will be ashamed of us . . . that's bad enough punishment!

So, back to John 8. Jesus is speaking to believers, and He tells them that they should now be not only believers, but disciples. That, though, is not free. It is costly. It is hard. But, it does not determine salvation.

For the record, are you aware that the word "repent" NEVER appears in the Gospel of John? And are you aware that John is the ONLY book written for the express purpose of bringing a person to a saving faith in Christ? If repentance was necessary, don't you think it would have been MENTIONED by John? Especially since he used the word 12 times in the Revelation?

I suspect this will end up getting broken into another thread . . .

Seriously, take some time and read though the links I provided. They aren't terribly long, and I handle the majority of verses on repentance.

God bless

edit: just noticed the other two verses you mentioned:

• Rom. 1:5 -- Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. (NIV)

Paul is calling disciples, as per the Great Commission. That doesn't mean that non-disciples are not Christians . . . or, I suppose it is possible that "obedience" is with reference to faith itself, that is, actually believing (see John 6:29).

• 1 John 2:3 -- We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. (NIV)

To "know" in the Greek means "to be in intimate fellowship with." This is not a reference to "being saved." It is a reference to being in a proper fellowship with God. See the context of the book, 1 John 1:1-4. 1 John is NOT a book that provides tests for salvation. It is a book that provides tests for fellowship. Sin, of course, breaks a person's fellowship with God, but it does not cause him to lose his salvation.

Jac3510,

Question - some of what you are saying appears to be in line with Major W. Ian Thomas works. Have you read any of his books or know anything about him?
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No, I've not, actually. But, I notice that we do have a few of his books here at the library. I'll have to look into that.

Jac, in your theology, two questions:
1. Can someone lose their salvation?
2. Can someone get into heaven without ever doing a single good deed?