Evidence for God from Science

willieH: Hi BW...

Continuing in the context of John 3:

B. W. wrote: John 3:17-18, “For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him 18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” YLT

John 3:17-18, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” ESV

Notice the word used in verses 17 and 18 translated 'judge' in the YLT and as 'condemned' in other translations. This word means a judicial decision in which one is sent away, banished, put asunder. It expresses the Judgment that comes when the guilty person is summoned to trial, case examined, and judgment of condemnation passed upon that person.

Why not identify the GREEK WORD for the readers BW, and definition of this word? I am not afraid to do so! Here it is:

KRINO [#G2919] to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially) by implication - to TRY, CONDEMN, PUNISH, AVENGE, CONCLUDE, CONDEMN, DAMN, DECREE, DETERMINE, ESTEEM, JUDGE, GO TO (sue at the) LAW, ORDAIN, CALL IN QUESTION, SENTENCE TO, THINK

Inserting ANY of these meanings still means -- "GOD SENT NOT His Son to _____ --- you pick one, or insert ALL of them... it still ends up the SAME. He was sent NOT to do this...

The Strongs Lexicon of GREEK does not note even one of your proposed definitions to this word: "sent away" -- "banished" -- "put asunder"... Where did you get these definitions from, BW? I would really like to know the reference these came from!

Now lets do as I did previously BW... let's break the verses down -- here is the KJV:

John 3:17-18 KJV ...For God SENT NOT His Son into the world to CONDEMN [krino] the World, but that the WORLD through Him might be SAVED... He that BELIEVETH on Him is not CONDEMNED [krino]... but he that BELIEVETH NOT, is CONDEMNED [krino] already, because he hath not BELIEVED in the only begotten Son of God...

JESUS displayed that He does NOT condemn: John 8:10-11 -- the LAW -- Deut 22:22 -- Lev 20:10 (as presented by the carnal Pharisees) called for condemnation, but the GRACE of CHRIST, FORGAVE...

God in these verses SETS the mission of CHRIST... that being to SAVE the WORLD... either He SUCCEEDED in this MISSION (for we have already noted that Salvation is COMPLETELY His WORK)... or He FAILED... I see it as blasphemy to insist in any manner of presentation, that He FAILED... as also previously noted...

(1) He is IMPARTIAL to men -- Acts 10:34 -- 1 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 and others ...

(2) Man can only COME to CHRIST if drawn to Him by GOD -- John 6:44 ...

(3) It takes the WORK of CHRIST to AUTHOR FAITH, in order for anyone to BELIEVE... Heb 12:2

Each '"Christian"... is found in the state of CONDEMNATION before he/she BELIEVES, because he/she has not...

(1) been drawn to CHRIST by the FATHER, John 6:44 ...so that

(2) He can "AUTHOR FAITH" to BELIEVE... Heb 12:2

If GOD has so done for these CONDEMNED ones who are NOW become CHRISTIANS because of the WORK of GOD (drawing, authoring faith)... and GOD is IMPARTIAL to MEN... then LOGIC dictates (and it makes SENSE)... that He shall DO this for ALL OTHERS as Scripture notes -- 1 Tim 2:5 will be TESTIFIED in ...DUE TIME... this work shall be COMPLETE by the conclusion of the LAST DAY... which has pretty obviously NOT yet occured... for IN the LAST DAY is found JUDGMENT ...and... RESURRECTION -- John 6:44, 54 -- John 12:48

JESUS reiterates that He came NOT to JUDGE or CONDEMN... and He is an UNCHANGING entity... so His position concerning them will NEVER CHANGE -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17

B. W. wrote:What verse 17 is saying is that God did not send his Son to pass a final judgment of condemnation upon the earth so that God would immediately destroy all humanity just as Romans 3:10-12 states: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." none — no not one.”

Sorry BW... but this is nothing but YOUR OPINION (and you are welcome to it, for better or for worse)...

What It DOES say (without inserting OPINIONS) is that GOD sent NOT His Son to CONDEMN, ...CHRIST noted that He came NOT to JUDGE... And NEITHER GOD nor CHRIST change at all...

B. W. wrote:All humanity deserves to be condemned - banished forever from the presence of the Lord but Jesus Christ came to call out those who believe in him from those who will not. In other words,

This is your interpretation of what the WORD says bro... NOT what the WORD actually, ...SAYS... If indeed the WORD states (as you claim) that "all humanity DESERVES to be CONDEMNED", then please note the verses which plainly state it...

All humanity does NOT deserve to be CONDEMNED.. if this were SO, then GOD would have done so. He did NOT. Instead of CONDEMNING the WORLD, ...He sent His SON to SAVE the WORLD... Not to "banish it forever"... these are YOUR WORDS BW, not the WORDS of God...

B. W. wrote:Jesus came to seek and save those who believe. In verse 17 the phrase 'that the world might be saved through him' is defined in verse 18.

This is what you have been taught... because it has been taught you, does not equate it to truth...

The WORD -- SPECIFICALLY -- says otherwise:

Luke 19:10 ...For the Son of man came TO SEEK and TO SAVE, that which was LOST [apollumi=destroyed]

It does NOT say that He came to SEEK and TO SAVE "BELIEVERS" --- as YOU say... It says He came to SEEK and to SAVE that which was LOST/DESTROYED.

If GOD says this in His WORD... That "all humanity deserves to be condemned" and that JESUS came to save just "BELIEVERS" ...please quote the BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE where this is so stated...

There is a verse in Scripture in DIRECT and COMPLETE contradition to your words: 1 Tim 4:10 -- for we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God, ...WHO IS, the SAVIOR of ...ALL MEN, ...SPECIALLY -- those that ...BELIEVE!

This verse notes:

(1) God ...IS... the Savior of ALL [pas] MEN...

(2) SPECIALLY (particularly) those that BELIEVE... God cannot claim Himself SAVIOR of ALL MEN, unless He SAVES ALL MEN...

(3) He DIED for ALL MEN (which enables Him to SAVE them) -- Heb 2:10 -- If ANY men are NOT SAVED, then that portion of His Sacrifice is found IN VAIN...

B. W. wrote:Verse 18 expresses a condition of those that believe verses those who do not believe. In other words, Christ temporally adverted God's wrath so that those who will believe — believe in him. Notice in verse 18 does not say everyone but only those that believe will be saved just as the next verses clearly tell. (Notice verse 18 again and how it connects to verses 19-21)

More of your opinion which is contrary to Scripture stated elsewhere, as I have already pointed out.

EVERY man begins an UNBELIEVER and SINNER -- Rom 3:23 -- Rom 11:32 -- for FAITH is the WORK of CHRIST to both INITIATE and COMPLETE... You and I only BELIEVE brother BW, because He has already done this IN US... not because "we" one day, decided to BELIEVE...

Forgive me for the interruptions, ...but I think I shall stop here and pick it up later (starting to feel under the weather again... )

I will comment on verses 19-21 and their RELEVANCE to NON-CONDEMNATION... no man is ABLE to COME (of his own decision) -- John 6:44 -- simply because ALL men are SINNERS... Rom 3:23

...willieH

willieH wrote:
John 3:17-18, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” ESV[/i]

JESUS displayed that He does NOT condemn: John 8:10-11 -- the LAW -- Deut 22:22 -- Lev 20:10 (as presented by the carnal Pharisees) called for condemnation, but the GRACE of CHRIST, FORGAVE...

God in these verses SETS the mission of CHRIST... that being to SAVE the WORLD... either He SUCCEEDED in this MISSION (for we have already noted that Salvation is COMPLETELY His WORK)... or He FAILED... I see it as blasphemy to insist in any manner of presentation, that He FAILED... as also previously noted...

As the verses say, we are condemned already, unless we believe in Christ. Not everyone will believe, so they will remain condemned. People must respond to God's grace; they do have some responsibility (besides John 3:18, see also John 3:36, 6:37, Acts 16:31; Moody Handbook of Theology p 349; Eerdman's Commentary on the Bible p 1170). Jesus's work was enough to save all humans, but each person needs to accept it (or not) (Believer's Bible Commentary p 1480).

(1) God ...IS... the Savior of ALL [pas] MEN...

"Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them . . ." (Jude 23a). If no one is going into the fire, why would we need to snatch them out? If everyone is automatically saved, then there was no reason for Christ to come and go through all his agony in order to save us. Those who accept his sacrifice will be saved, those who trample on it won't.

willieH: Hi CSL...

Not quite thru with BW... but thought I'd answer you since it is brief...

BW wrote:John 3:17-18, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” ESV[/i]

willieH wrote:JESUS displayed that He does NOT condemn: John 8:10-11 -- the LAW -- Deut 22:22 -- Lev 20:10 (as presented by the carnal Pharisees) called for condemnation, but the GRACE of CHRIST, FORGAVE...

God in these verses SETS the mission of CHRIST... that being to SAVE the WORLD... either He SUCCEEDED in this MISSION (for we have already noted that Salvation is COMPLETELY His WORK)... or He FAILED... I see it as blasphemy to insist in any manner of presentation, that He FAILED... as also previously noted...

cslewislover wrote:As the verses say, we are condemned already, unless we believe in Christ. Not everyone will believe, so they will remain condemned.

Sorry, but this is short of understanding bro... It is the WORK of CHRIST to AUTHOR faith... are you saying that in His attempt to do so in some ...HE FAILS?

I don't think so! If one does not have FAITH, then it has YET to be AUTHORED by HIM, in that one...

cslewislover wrote:People must respond to God's grace; they do have some responsibility

The Bible NEVER names men RESPONSIBLE... which means the "buck stops here"... MEN are ACCOUNTABLE... and must FACE themselves and their DEEDS... GOD took RESPONSIBILITY for that which has occured in His Creation... He did not lay this upon FINITE men, who are SINFUL by nature, and who CANNOT come to the LIGHT of themselves...

If it is as you say -- People must RESPOND in order to be saved... then it is indeed THEIR RESPONSE that saves them...

cslewislover wrote:(besides John 3:18, see also John 3:36, 6:37, Acts 16:31; Moody Handbook of Theology p 349; Eerdman's Commentary on the Bible p 1170). Jesus's work was enough to save all humans, but each person needs to accept it (or not) (Believer's Bible Commentary p 1480).

Unacceptable (at least for me, you are welcome to accept anything you so choose)... the "Moody handbook of Theology" is NOT GOD's WORD... if you wish to make points with references... only the WORD has the authority to set them on the path of TRUTH... The "Moody Handbook of theology" is nothing but a collection of FINITE observations which YOU have decided to accept as AUTHORITATIVE...

You are saying that the ACCEPTANCE of what He did, ...SAVES! This cannot be so... Where in the WORD, is it stated that we must "ACCEPT CHRIST"?

The WORD says:

John 15:16 ...ye have NOT CHOSEN ME... but I've CHOSEN YOU... (btw, I've written a song about this passage! )

willieH wrote:(1) God ...IS... the Savior of ALL [pas] MEN...

cslewislover wrote: "Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them . . ." (Jude 23a).

Don't know where this "version" of this verse came from, but I use KJV...

Jude 23 [KJV] ...and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating the garment even spotted by the flesh...

Now for your comment:

cslewislover wrote:If no one is going into the fire, why would we need to snatch them out?

I have never claimed we would not be TRIED by FIRE, ..OR... that we are not "going into the fire", bro... I say there is no such thing as HELL...

We are IN the (lake of) FIRE NOW, ...CSL...

1 Pet 1:7 That the TRIAL of YOUR FAITH being much more prescious than gold which perisheth, though IT IS TRIED WITH FIRE... might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of JESUS CHRIST... This "TRIAL" is occuring in THIS FIRE, ...now...

Mark 9:49 for ...EVERY ONE... shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt... EVERY ONE, does not leave out ANY ONE!

1 Cor 3:15 if ...ANY MAN's WORK... shall be BURNED, he shall suffer loss... but HE, HIMSELF, ...shall BE SAVED, yet so as ...BY FIRE... Our "works" are consumated while ON EARTH... They (works) will either ABIDE this FIRE, or they will NOT...

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of Me, GOLD, ...TRIED in FIRE , that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment that thou mayest be CLOTHED, and that the SHAME of thy NAKEDNESS do not appear, and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve that thou mayest SEE... CHRIST's "gold" was TRIED in THE FIRE of THIS LIFE...

cslewislover wrote:If everyone is automatically saved, then there was no reason for Christ to come and go through all his agony in order to save us.

Hmmm... if it takes CHRIST to SAVE ALL -- For that was His mission... and He was sent to SAVE ALL... then if He indeed accomplishes this task, His agony and trials were in vain? How do you figure?

You are saying that: He had to go through "agony" to save a FEW (which by the way are called "as the sand of the sea" -- that equals FEW?)...

But in order to SAVE ALL, He didn't need to go through this agony? How do you figure? GOD decided to SAVE the WORLD by His Son's sacrifice which was for ALL -- Heb 2:9 -- John 1:29 -- 1 John 2:2... So YOU determine that if ALL are SAVED, that He didn't need to do ANYTHING?

The TRUTH is, that if was only ONE or a GAZILLION that had sinned, ...CHRIST would have had to go through the agony and trials he did, just for that ONE OR that GAZILLION... for this is the METHOD of YHVH to redeem men from SIN and DEATH... no "alternative" suggested by ANY MAN, is acceptable... and the NUMBER of the SAVED is irrelevant... ONE METHOD was sufficient for ALL, and was SUCCESSFULLY performed by GOD...

cslewislover wrote:Those who accept his sacrifice will be saved, those who trample on it won't.

That's what you say... Again, where is it stated in the Scriptures that we are to "ACCEPT CHRIST"?

That is NOT what the Scripture says: 1 Tim 4:10 -- 1 John 2:2 -- John 1:29 -- Rom 5:18-20 -- 1 Cor 15:22

The WORD says...

Rom 5:20 ...WHERE SIN abounded [the "where it abounds" is in EVERY MAN"] -- GRACE did MUCH MORE -- ABOUND!

peace...

...willieH

willieH wrote:

cslewislover wrote:(besides John 3:18, see also John 3:36, 6:37, Acts 16:31; Moody Handbook of Theology p 349; Eerdman's Commentary on the Bible p 1170). Jesus's work was enough to save all humans, but each person needs to accept it (or not) (Believer's Bible Commentary p 1480).

Unacceptable (at least for me, you are welcome to accept anything you so choose)... the "Moody handbook of Theology" is NOT GOD's WORD... if you wish to make points with references... only the WORD has the authority to set them on the path of TRUTH... The "Moody Handbook of theology" is nothing but a collection of FINITE observations which YOU have decided to accept as AUTHORITATIVE...

Earlier, you condemned BW for not having references, so now that I've given some, they are unacceptable since they are not the bible. Why would anyone accept your own FINITE observations as any more worthwhile than those in Moody????? How does that make any sense?

In Moody, they call this issue an antinomy, a paradox in scripture. But, "The numerous passages of Scripture commanding people to believe are sufficient evidence in showing that man is indeed responsible . . ." (p 349). We use references such as Moody, and other orthodox authorities, so as not to have to rewrite a whole book here as a post.

Your disrespectful approach and unwillingness to engage, to simply tell everyone that their "opinion" is not as good or as informed as yours, is unacceptable at this board.

willieH wrote:willieH: Hi BW...

Continuing in the context of John 3...

Why not identify the GREEK WORD for the readers BW, and definition of this word? I am not afraid to do so! Here it is:

KRINO [#G2919] to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially) by implication - to TRY, CONDEMN, PUNISH, AVENGE, CONCLUDE, CONDEMN, DAMN, DECREE, DETERMINE, ESTEEM, JUDGE, GO TO (sue at the) LAW, ORDAIN, CALL IN QUESTION, SENTENCE TO, THINK

Inserting ANY of these meanings still means -- "GOD SENT NOT His Son to _____ --- you pick one, or insert ALL of them... it still ends up the SAME. He was sent NOT to do this...

The Strongs Lexicon of GREEK does not note even one of your proposed definitions to this word: "sent away" -- "banished" -- "put asunder"... Where did you get these definitions from, BW? I would really like to know the reference these came from!

Now lets do as I did previously BW... let's break the verses down -- here is the KJV:

John 3:17-18 KJV ...For God SENT NOT His Son into the world to CONDEMN [krino] the World, but that the WORLD through Him might be SAVED... He that BELIEVETH on Him is not CONDEMNED [krino]... but he that BELIEVETH NOT, is CONDEMNED [krino] already, because he hath not BELIEVED in the only begotten Son of God...

JESUS displayed that He does NOT condemn: John 8:10-11 -- the LAW -- Deut 22:22 -- Lev 20:10 (as presented by the carnal Pharisees) called for condemnation, but the GRACE of CHRIST, FORGAVE...

God in these verses SETS the mission of CHRIST... that being to SAVE the WORLD... either He SUCCEEDED in this MISSION (for we have already noted that Salvation is COMPLETELY His WORK)... or He FAILED... I see it as blasphemy to insist in any manner of presentation, that He FAILED... as also previously noted...

Sorry BW... but this is nothing but YOUR OPINION (and you are welcome to it, for better or for worse)...

What It DOES say (without inserting OPINIONS) is that GOD sent NOT His Son to CONDEMN, ...CHRIST noted that He came NOT to JUDGE... And NEITHER GOD nor CHRIST change at all...

All humanity does NOT deserve to be CONDEMNED.. if this were SO, then GOD would have done so. He did NOT. Instead of CONDEMNING the WORLD, ...He sent His SON to SAVE the WORLD... Not to "banish it forever"... these are YOUR WORDS BW, not the WORDS of God...willieH

WillieH, Response to first 5/24/2009 post

Jesus does not agree with your doctrine. Please note the following verses:

John 5:22-29, “The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

“24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

“25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

“28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” ESV

Verses 22-23 - All Judgment has been given to the Son and note two types of people being alluded too.

Verse 24 — those that hear and believe are the ones that do not pass into judgment — the others — well what happens to them is explained a few verses away.

Verse 27 — Again explains plainly that Christ will execute judgment

Verses 28-29 — explicitly tells the reader what happens when his final judgment occurs — some resurrection of life and others the resurrection of judgment

Next, Jesus does not agree with your doctrine in Luke 10:

Luke 10:12, “I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. 13 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. 16 "The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Verse 15- The judgment to those who reject the Lord will be sent where? Heaven — No Hades!

Verse 16 — again two groups of people mentioned — those that reject the Lord will be rejected by him.

Again in Matthew 12:36 Jesus disagrees with your doctrine:

Mat 12:36, “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

In Fact Jesus does not agree with your interpretation of John 3 note verse 18:

John 3:18, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

Two groups of People mentioned — those that believe and those that will not. Verse 17 is saying that God is staying his hand of anger and giving humanity an honest chance to believe or not to believe proving that he does judge the world with equity. To force someone into something they do not want is not justice. Creating a choice for them, and engaging them with it, and honoring whatever decision is absolutely just.

John 3:17-18 is not saying Jesus is not going to judge anyone because of the tenants of universalism. In Fact I lain out Jesus' own words on the matter about Judgment.

It is up to you to accept or reject...
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willieH wrote:willieH: Not quite thru with BW...

willieH, response to 2'nd 5/24/2009 post...

Paul wrote this:

Rom 3:5, “But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)”

The doctrine of Universalism would answer YES, God would be unjust to inflict wrath on us because his love forbid's it. However, Paul reveals such thinking to be the human way of thinking and in error as it is written:

Nahum 1:2 -3, “The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty…”

The bible reveals two groups of people — those that belong to the Lord and those who do not. Those who do not will be kept in a place of punishment until the final judgment:

For the unrighteous it is written:

Isaiah 24:22, “They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished.”

Isaiah 48:22, “There is no peace, said Jehovah, to the wicked! (wicked râshâ‛ means:
one guilty of crime, one hostile to God, one who is wicked, one who is guilty of sin against God and/or man)” YLT

God knows how to keep unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment…

2 Pe 2:9, “…then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment…”

Now for those that place faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins such persons are saved.

Rom 3:23-26, “… for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

Notice it states - so that he (The Lord) might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus and it does not say otherwise. Those that have faith believed in Christ as he said in John 3 obeying Christ. Of such, these become his children and are loved by God and transformed.

From this there is a future resurrection of both the just and the unjust as it is written:

Act 24:15, “having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.”

Dan 12:2, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt”.

Mat 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 5:28-29, “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

Rev 20:12-15, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Notice that Hades, also known as hell, the pit, sheol will give up its inhabitants. The bible describes such inhabitants as cognizant and not asleep. Job 26:5-6 describes the shades (the dead) as trembling. Eze 32:19-32 describes Hades as a pit where the dead (shades) hear, see, and can speak receiving just recompense in just measure all on certain levels or locations within this pit. Eze 26:20 describes that people from old inhabit and dwell in this place. Proverbs 21:16 speaks of the assembly of the dead (shades) — not people buried in individual graves asleep but gathered together in a group in the form called a shade of their former selves.

After many days then comes the final judgment and anyone's name not found in the book of life will also be thrown into the lake of fire as it is written:

Isaiah 24:22, “They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished.”

Notice also how God speaks to the un-honorable prophets says their shame will be perpetual.

Jer 23:40, “And I will bring upon you everlasting reproach and perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten."

Universalism and all its forms does-not adhere to the bible but rather attempts to manipulate it to suite human bias. You must place your faith in Christ to become his child. If not, you are not his and God's wrath remains on you.

Rom 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

Psalms 11:5-7, 'The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. 6 Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. 7 For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face."

I have found in Universalist a naí¯ve pride that always seeks to exalt human will over God. In the end, they abandon the bible and create a god in their own image, which God also forbids.

Also, Universalist prove themselves very condescending as you have, Willie, evidenced by the words you have written. Charging Orthodox Christian doctrine with blasphemy proves the depths of your love shaded in hypocrisy. If all make it into heaven as you teach, why are you here? It does not matter what one believes or how blasphemous they are — does it?

Universalist need to repent and come to Christ like everyone else. They espouse great love for all except for Orthodox Christianity who they deem as a great evil. Again, if all enter heaven — so what! I do not go to your web sites and pick fights as you have, so leave us alone and remain blind to the truth if that is your choice.

Willie, you do not look at the context nor balance what you say with other scriptures. You use the Strong's Concordance. I suggest you take and study Greek and Hebrew as I have for the past 27 years before attempting to explain Greek word meanings.

I would suggest finding next Fall — a Bible Study Fellowship Group in your local area (Google the name and look at their website) and begin attending so you learn how to study the bible and not read into it.

Lastly, scripture and the love of God enjoins me to warn you that God will hold you to a stricter judgment due to misleading people astray. Of this judgment you naively knowing nothing about and reject and I beg you to reconsider. You must place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for your eternal salvation and not the tenants of universalism. Your eternal destiny is at stake.

You do not have to believe what I am going to say next. I did stand before the Lord in Judgment once. It was a fearful thing to stand before him with all your excuses and high ideas exposed for what they are, garbage. Then come into understanding how such thinking corrupts and manipulates God's own goodness for selfish gain in an attempt to expunge the reality of this hour. You cannot stand in the reality of such judgment as you see how righteous God is and how filthy we are.

The Lord in his mercy granted me, for whatever reason, to see a terrible place and return. Seeing that place called the pit in the bible was nothing compared to standing before the Lord in Judgment. The Lord allowed me to return. I still bear the effects of ill health from this experience that I gladly bear now as it reminds of God's grace to me and not to think more highly of myself than I ought.

After I returned, and woke up in a hospital and recovered a bit from extremely severe dehydration. The memory of standing before the Lord in judgment changed my life. I had to accept his terms and forsake mine, just like everyone else in this mortal life. There are only two groups of people, saved and unsaved, the unsaved do not become save post mortem. You have not tasted eternity and cannot understand it.

To you life is mere text book and proof texting idealism. Standing before a holy God after one dies is a fearful thing as you see and come to know God as he is. When that happens all thoughts of universalism, annihilationism, soul sleep, vanish in the light of him and his ways because you see the shades of his character and nature that answers all of life's toughest questions.

Willie you need Christ, you may think you have Christ but he is not the same one the bible speaks of. The one you found is one Universalist make for themselves. If you do not come to Christ, your universalism will cause you to abandon God for one you make.

Come to Christ believing in Him — Pray:

Father forgive me, have mercy for I am a sinner. Save me and change me. Fill me with thy Holy Spirit from above and make me born again of your Spirit. Change me and never let me go — Amen

From this simple prayer one enters the Lord's Kingdom, becomes his child, which in due time becomes transfromed into his people...Form this you pass from Darkness to Light...
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All Scriptures not cited are from ESV

B. W. Melvin
Author: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion

"The memory of standing before the Lord in judgment changed my life. I had to accept his terms and forsake mine, just like everyone else in this mortal life. There are only two groups of people, saved and unsaved, the unsaved do not become save post mortem."

^ That's real talk!

willieH wrote:willieH: Hi Catherine...

I'm a new guy here... and a believer in the SALVATION of ALL MEN... (I don't name myself a "Universalist", for this is a title given to believers in the Doctrine of ALL SAVED, by those who do NOT believe it)...

catherine wrote:Hi Cslewislover, I don't believe in a literal hell and haven't done for most of my adult life. I have studied the subject very thoroughly and checked each scriputre etc. There are other people within mainstream Christianity who like me don't believe it is literal. I am going to recheck my understanding of this doctrine, and intend to read B.W's article on it. As much as the idea of a literal hell is repulsive to me,if it is a truth, then I need to know that.

I have spent years researching the teaching of HELL... and it is the CENTERPOINT of the FALSE GOSPEL taught by Orthodox Christianity, headed for SHAME at the appearance of CHRIST... Rev 3:18

Hi Willie, wow what a wonderful surprise. I haven't visited this forum for a while so apologies for not replying sooner. I must say your previous post has just blown me away. It really has the ring of truth, real good news to it... Since posting on this particular thread, I've re-checked the 'hell doctrine' and I'm completely 100 % sure it is not only a false teaching but a diabolical one at that. I go to an AOG church at present and it really bothers me that they teach a literal hell with the flames to boot.

I'm certainly not convinced of Universal Reconcilition and again as appealing as it sounds, God's truth is what matters and only that. Universalism accepts that people are destroyed (not eternally but for an 'age' or 'ages') by God through judgments etc, and most people won't take part in the first resurrection which seems to be only for those 'in Christ': His firstfruits. The rest of the dead will be resurrected after the 1000 years, and so lose out on that special Kingdom blessing due to their disobedience and unbelief.

Might I say that I also do not believe in the UNBIBLICAL doctrine of the "Millennium"... The "1000" years is found in a book of SYMBOLS which REVEALS JESUS CHRIST...

That it is taken as a LITERAL "period" is the beginning of confusion, whether it be by BELIEVERS in Eternal Torment, Annhilation, OR the Salvation of ALL...

I've been aware for some time that the 1000 years might very well be representative rather than a literal period.

Also... those who believe in the Salvation of ALL MEN, do have differences concerning the Revelation, and its depictions. I for one do not believe in further torment beyond this life... and believe THIS LIFE, ...is... the LAKE of FIRE...

that would certainly make sense but if further 'torments' or 'corrective punishment' is necessary then God knows what is best.

The 1st resurrection is NOW for the Kingdom of GOD is entered, NOW... and ALL that partake of that resurrection (which IS the state of the ETERNAL) must still enter into the SLEEP of DEATH.

It is the WORD in us, that NEVER DIES... ("Never" means - NOT at ANY TIME) Even the flesh of CHRIST, ...died... but the WORD which IS ETERNAL and which, was IN HIM, ...NEVER DIES...

GOD, which IS the WORD, ...cannot DIE... He is EVERLASTING... without beginning or ...END...

MEN are: ...(1) ordained to DIE: Heb 9:27, ...(2) born DEAD Matt 8:22 -- Ps 51:5, ...(3) DUST, which must RETURN to it: Gen 3:19

catherine wrote:They will have to be punished, which won't be nice but they will be reconciled so that God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) and then will be the restoration of all things Acts 3:21- or say it is claimed. I have come across many scriptures that SEEM to be saying that God is going to reconcile everyone and I welcome anyone to explain the meaning of these verses if they DON'T mean EVERYONE. I will supply the verses for anyone interested.

This is pretty much, RIGHT ON! The Bible, end to end, speaks of the ALL MERCIFUL and LOVING character of GOD... He is about LIFE, not death... and He is about MERCY and FORGIVENESS, not holding men hostage as a target for torment...

The "punishment" is NOW Catherine... This is what is encompassed in: AIDS, Cancer, Heart disease, pollution, war, infidelities, disappointment, mental disorders, famine, ...the list of sorrows on earth, is endless! The ESCAPE from these is DEATH... And it is not GOD's program to set us in this world of continuing torment, to resurrect us to even MORE and WORSE ones!

He is about teaching us (in this temporal time realm) the difference between WHO and WHAT He, IS... (GOOD/LOVE/HARMONY/HEALTH/LIFE/JOY/PEACE...the list is also ENDLESS!) ...and WHO and WHAT He, IS NOT!

I must say that for a long time I have been thinking that the reason there is evil is because unless we experience 'bad' we can't appreciate 'good' and neither are we able to 'choose' in an informed way, cos really being told 'no' is not informing us in the real sense, but I think you brought that out in your previous post. Rejecting 'bad' can only be achieved once we know what the repercussions will be. Rom 8:20 -

We are here to observe and experience the SORROWS which represent the OPPOSITE of WHO and WHAT He IS... That He be GLORIFIED forever for those differences!

The GOSPEL is PEACE...

GOD of PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2

GOSPEL of PEACE: Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

NOT worse scenarios to come... LOVE casts out FEAR... 1 John 4:18

Those who teach HELL... are teaching FEAR...

You are on the RIGHT track sister...

Peace...

...willieH

Having read the rest of your responses and those of the others I can see that much of what you have been saying has been misunderstood. Thanks again for your posts. Very informative.

wow!

I have spent all evening reading as much of this post as I can. I think that I am still 50/50 as to whether I belive in UR or annialation. I definatly dont understand the Hell doctrine. I just cant get my head round the idea that God would cast His creation into an everlasting torment in Hell's flames. I think the stumbling block for me is John 6:44. If there is an ever lasting conscious punishment for those who didn't believe in this life that would surely mean that;

-As God is the one who decideds who will believe or not...
-He created the majority of people who have/do and will live to not believe in him

Why would God do this?

For His glory? how is it for his glory?

Also why would God punish people who's main crime, not believing in Him, was a crime He forced them to commit. God has chosen who will and wont believe in Him, we have no choice, there is no free will when it comes to believing.

A lot of people who refute UR claim that in order for all men to believe in God and repent God would have to go against man's free will, but surely we dont have any free will when it comes to believing in Him in the first place, if He wants to drag us to Him, He will.

If this life is our only shot then why did he choose some to live on this Earth only to then choose that they would then live for eternity in Hell, becasue He knew they would never believe??

Another thing that really confuses me is did Christ's sacrifice on the cross give ALL men ever lasting life?? becasue surely ever-lasting consciousness in Hell, gnashing your teeth and cursing God is still alive. So christ died on the cross to give us all eternal life and the majority spend theirs in HELL?

I struggle to see the Good News in this, before the creation of the Universe God knew how it would all plan out, He created you and made you stubborn so you would not believe in Him, he has not chosen you, the wages of your sin were death but now Christ died you will be alive forever in Hell. Tht sounds like very bad news to me.

Its fair to say I am very confused on this issue and am pleased that I have found a forum of such clever chaps to, hopefully , bring me some enlightentment.

ps Catherine, Hi mum!

Nat
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Catharine and natcat86,

Universalism fails on the truths in the bible as it is written:

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" ESV

Since there is a sin that can never be forgiven because it is an eternal sin; therefore, the doctrine of Universalism is false and causes a person to stray away from the truths in the bible and exchange the salvation that Christ brings for a lie

Jesus warns in Mat 7:13, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” ESV

Wide and broad is the way of the crowd and it leads to ruin. Before embracing universalism or annihilationism note these are the appealing ways of the world. Jesus' message is different than the appealing ways of the world. Why this is so is so that you'll know you are on the correct path as it is opposite of the wide broad ways of the world.

The choice is yours but know that Christ warns of an eternal hell and a sin that will never be forgiven. Universalism will lead you away from the truth path onto a wide broad lane. All I can do is shout -- Don't be fooled...
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Thanks B.W

The Matt7:13 talks about a path that leads to destruction, not eternal conscious torment.

These passages also talk about destruction (all NIV);

Psalm 92:7 that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.

Philippians 3:18-19- 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction

Psalm 37:20- 20 But the wicked will perish: The LORD's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke.

Malachi 4- 1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.

Isaiah 66:24 -24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
( The fire may be everlasting but the people it burns are dead bodies, fire and worms are one of the two fates of dead bodies. Fire in cremation and worms when they are buried.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9- 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Am I wrong that these scriptures contradict that men will be in a conscious torment in hell forever more? their punishment may be for evermore, destroyed and never again restored, but it doesn't mean they will be alive in hell forever more.

The doctrine of Hell fills me with fear for those who die without knowing Christ, to think that the fate of eternal tourment faces them is alsmost more than I can bare. BUT scriptures like this say quite plainly to me that they will be destroyed for their transgressions. Although in my imperfect human way, of course I would rather they be with me in heaven (after all the only reason I will be there is God in His grace chose to reveal Himself to me!) I can understand that God would just send them back to the state they were in before they were born.

Sorry if this is covering old ground but these scriptures so clearly state, in all translations, that the wicked will be DESTROYED that I do not understand why everyone doesn't believe this.- I must be missing something as you all seem a lot brighter than me!!!

Thanks again!

Nat

Actually natcat86 the word translated destruction does not mean annihilation into non-being. It means simply brought into an state of continual ruin. Where there worm not dies is that ones recompense forever feeds on the ruin such a person brought about during their mortal lives.

To gain an idea of what eternal punishment is about — realize that this form of punishment is just recompense. Think of it this way — a person in confined in hell is forever reminded that they love their sin (self ambition, lust, evil speaking, etc) more than the Lord. In other words, they'll choose these things over God's offer of salvation as they did during their mortal life.

Though they may cry out for mercy from this (Luke 16:19-31) — they are confronted with what their sin is and they gravitate toward that and prove they'll continually reject God's mercy and will abuse this for their own ends. However they treated others in word, thoughts, or deeds, they receive payback for this and thus are brought to live in eternal ruin and destruction they wrought.

You cannot eternally bring to destruction something that is annihilated into non-being.

2 Th 1:9, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…" ESV

Gill brings this out this point in his commentary on 2 Th 1:9:

Who shall be punished - What this everlasting destruction consists in we cannot tell. It is not annihilation, for their being continues; and as the destruction is everlasting, it is an eternal continuance and presence of substantial evil, and absence of all good; for a part of this punishment consists in being banished from the presence of the Lord - excluded from his approbation, for ever; so that the light of his countenance can be no more enjoyed, as there will be an eternal impossibility of ever being reconciled to him.

The glory of his power - Never to see the face of God throughout eternity is a heart-rending, soul-appalling thought; and to be banished from the glory of his power, that power the glory of which is peculiarly manifested in saving the lost and glorifying the faithful, is what cannot be reflected on without confusion and dismay. But this must be the lot of all who acknowledge not God, and obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Barnes commentary also is illuminating on 2 Th 1:9:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction; - see the notes on Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46. The word which is here rendered “destruction” (ὄλεθρον olethron), is different from that which occurs in Mat_25:46, and which is there rendered “punishment” - κόλασις kolasis. The word ὄλεθρον olethron - “olethron” - occurs only here and in 1Co_5:5; 1Th_5:3; 1Ti_6:9; in each of which places it is rendered destruction. It does not denote annihilation, but is used in the same sense in which we use the word when we say that a thing is destroyed. Thus, health is destroyed when it fails; property is destroyed when it is burned or sunk in the ocean; a limb is destroyed that is lost in battle; life is destroyed when one dies. In the case before us, the destruction, whatever it be, is:

(1) to be continued forever; and,

(2) is to be of the nature of punishment.

The meaning then must be, that the soul is destroyed as to the great purposes of its being - its enjoyment, dignity, honor, holiness, happiness. It will not be annihilated, but will live and linger on in destruction. It seems difficult to conceive how anyone can profess to hold that this passage is a part of the Word of God, and yet deny the doctrine of future eternal punishment. It would not be possible to state that doctrine in clearer language than this. It is never is in clearer language in any creed or confession of faith, and if it is not true that the wicked will be punished forever, then it must be admitted that it would not have been possible to reveal the doctrine in human language!

Note that 1 Corinthians 5:5 speaks of turning a straying believer back then over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh — ruin of the flesh. If this word translated destruction only denotes annihilation into non being then why did not the Corinthian's just kill the man — make him extinct?

Likewise 1 Timothy 6:9 tells that senseless and harmful desires plunge people into destruction and perdition…

1 Ti 6:9, “But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction (olethron — translated as ruin in other translations) and perdition (apōleia meaning perishing, ruin, destruction, moral decay., etc).” KJV

Such that follow senseless and harmful desires do not plunge such practitioners into annihilation into non-being but rather plunges them into a living ruinous state. Look at the meth addict for an example of how they bring their lives into a ruinous state. They then live in a state of perdition, ruin that brings destruction to their lives and the lives of others.

Destruction does not mean annihilation into non-being everywhere this word is translated in the bible. It instead denotes being brought into ruinous state. Another example is found in how we use the English word annihilate. For example, The Bronco's annihilated the Chief's during a football game. Yet, all the players on the Chief's team still exist and are still alive. How can than be if they were truly annihilated?

Thus Destruction denotes living in the lack of the great purposes of life that God graces us with - its enjoyment, its dignity, its honor, its happiness, its prosperity, etc and etc. In other words one will find the opposite and live in the ruin of debaseness, dishonor, cheerlessness, poverty, etc and etc instead and not in the great purpose of life God has. Such will not be annihilated into non-existence, but will live and linger on in such ruin as they make.

Therefore, any readers please do not bring forth scriptures out of context to make a case for annihilation because Jesus said in Matthew 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

The word translated eternal is used in same function in both cases it is used. If eternal punishment is not eternal then eternal life is likewise not eternal. You cannot say one means one thing and the other something else. The force of the grammar Jesus used here does not permit this.

Lastly, when something ceases to exist it cannot be punished forever, therefore, for eternal punishment, suffering recompense, to be eternal — it cannot cease. Again the choice of words used in this text and the grammar cannot be trifled with as is the manner that some attempt to do with this verse.


2 Th 1:8-9, "...in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." ESV
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B. W. wrote:Catharine and natcat86,

Universalism fails on the truths in the bible as it is written:

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" ESV

Since there is a sin that can never be forgiven because it is an eternal sin; therefore, the doctrine of Universalism is false and causes a person to stray away from the truths in the bible and exchange the salvation that Christ brings for a lie

Jesus warns in Mat 7:13, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” ESV

Wide and broad is the way of the crowd and it leads to ruin. Before embracing universalism or annihilationism note these are the appealing ways of the world. Jesus' message is different than the appealing ways of the world. Why this is so is so that you'll know you are on the correct path as it is opposite of the wide broad ways of the world.

The choice is yours but know that Christ warns of an eternal hell and a sin that will never be forgiven. Universalism will lead you away from the truth path onto a wide broad lane. All I can do is shout -- Don't be fooled...
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Mark 3:29 (Young's Literal Translation)

29but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

There is a lot of controversy regarding the words translated 'eternal' or 'forever' and I believe there is a strong case to suggest that the words 'aionios' and 'owlam' which are usually translated 'forever' or 'eternal' mean 'pertaining to the age' although some say 'age abiding' or 'age during'. It is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be an ETERNAL sin, because as WillieH pointed out, ONLY God is eternal.

Christ NEVER mentioned hell once. Jesus mentioned Gehenna, the local dump, and the Jews He was talking to would have known He was referring to death and destruction.

Here are a few more points to consider which I've been pondering for a while:

Why is it OK for God to 'drag' you off to Hell and burn you forever (obviously AGAINST your will) but it's not ok for God to 'drag' you to HIm and for Him to immerse you in His love?

If someone has a 'hell' experience, or even a 'heaven' experience, they always turn to God and repent and are 'saved'. Now how about ALL of us getting our own 'hell' experience and I'm sure we'd all be affected the same way. Actually I should say 'heaven' experience as I know there is no such place where God maintains evil without it ending and keeps people alive for the sole purpose of inflicting pain on them. I implore you guys here to check out the demonic doctrine of hell. You'll see that the four words in the Hebrew and Greek do not mean 'hell' - a Greek concept added in later. This is one of the best articles I have come across. It not only covers 'hell' but also goes into the meaning of 'aionios' :

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm

Here is what I and my daughter NatCat (Hi my darling, lovely to see you here) are guilty of if we believe in annihilation:

Not believing in a God who is a cosmic torturer who far exceeds the evil that we puny humans can perpetrate (at least the pain we inflict on others comes to an end).

Not believing in a God who although restores some of His creation via His Son, restores 'paradise' and life without end, maintains the majority of His human creation in existence to be forever under Adam's sin. It would mean Satan had won in one sense: he 'won' most of Adam's offspring, Christ was only able to save a few. ==THINK what this implies. IT just doesn't ring true at all.......

Believing in a God who 'destroys' evil and evildoers. They go back to what they were before they were born- non existence.


This is what we are guilty of 'wrongly interpreting' if we believe that Jesus really is the Saviour of the WHOLE WORLD:

'For as In Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive' 1Cor 15:22 (are only some humans effected by Adam? No ALL humans are, so how many are effected by Christ's sacrifice?)

God being 'LOVE' will have all men to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4

Jesus really is the Saviour of All men:
''and for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.'' 1 Tim 4:10.

What heinous crime are we guilty of? If we are wrong we attibuted more love mercy and forgiveness to God than He has or that we could understand? We couldn't accept a God who tortures His creation for all eternity?

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Nice post Catherine. I would agree with you.
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Thanks BW

I would really recommend http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm also as I read this after I made my previous post and am now sure God can 'overcome evil with good' and save all of His creation. BW could you really be happy to base your belief on hell on what may be the flawed linguistic abilities of men? Thank you BW for your reply, I hope you will have time to prayerfully read the article at mercifultruth.com. I have not been afraid to read your responses (incase they make me change my mind) as all I care about it knowing the truth about God (or as much as we can here in this life). I am only young and have no formal training, but luckily God chooses the foolish things like me, he spoke to balaam through a donkey, maybe He is speaking to you through me? Thank you again for your patience in reading this.

Ps hey mum, amen!