Evidence for God from Science

PL wrote:As far as God's Word goes, God makes to pretense whatsoever of "free-will". In fact, it is denied at every turn. (John 1:13; Romans 9:16).

FFC wrote:I'll concede that we can't by any act of our own will save ourselves, but what about after we are saved? Do we have free will to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh then...and if so what does this say about God's sovereignty as you view it?

Why does it seem that our flesh is stronger than his Spirit much of the time. How, as righteous, Holy, sanctified, Spirit indwelled, born again children of God, can we ever sin considering these credentials bestowed upon us by Christ?

I'm leaning toward Jac's explanation that as Believers the difference is now that we are not in bondage to sin and have free access to the Spirit. Is this not free will?

Is mankind an absolute passive agent in God's work? Or is the Lord restoring the broken relationship between God and man? Relationship involves 2 parties working in unison not one dictatorship over another. Agape love seeks relationship not dictatorship. Think about it for awhile.

Again — how does God show mercy? To a few? To all? What is the result of mercy?

How does God's mercy work? Pure determinism of God's part or the revelation of what God is like - That God foreknows everything before anything ever was? Before anything ever was - needed mercy or not?

What would you do, foreknowing beforehand anything that ever was needed mercy or not? How would you show and prove mercy? What acts show mercy?
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BW wrote:Know matter the argument — it leads back here. Either God gave you a choice or not - if then - not, then God sinned and is not perfect.

I hear what you are saying, but is God subject to any law... including His own? Doesn't He stand on his own name? God would never do anything that violated his own holiness, but isn't He free to do whatever He will with His creations? I'm not arguing, just anticipating the logical responses which do make sense and carry much scriptural strength.

FFC wrote:

PL wrote:As far as God's Word goes, God makes to pretense whatsoever of "free-will". In fact, it is denied at every turn. (John 1:13; Romans 9:16).

I'll concede that we can't by any act of our own will save ourselves, but what about after we are saved? Do we have free will to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh then...and if so what does this say about God's sovereignty as you view it?

Why does it seem that our flesh is stronger than his Spirit much of the time. How, as righteous, Holy, sanctified, Spirit indwelled, born again children of God, can we ever sin considering these credentials bestowed upon us by Christ?

I'm leaning toward Jac's explanation that as Believers the difference is now that we are not in bondage to sin and have free access to the Spirit. Is this not free will?

After we are saved, we will walk in the Spirit, because we will want to. (Our "free-wills" have been changed).

Ezekiel 36:27
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them."

Keep this in mind. Both the elect and the unelect are still free to do what they want to do. It is "what they want to do" that has been changed by God.

B.W.

Not only is "extreme predeterminism" biblical (See Isaiah 46:9-11; Daniel 4:35; Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11), it is what makes God God. Without it, we live in a world governed by undesigned chance or blind fate. God's sovereignty is denied, and God is not God.

Maybe you can answer the following questions. Did God "predestine" Absalom's incest? Did He do it openly before all Israel (2 Samuel 12:12)? Did God send Joseph into Egypt (Genesis 45:7)? How? Did God bruise His Son (Isaiah 53:10)? How?

Making God's will a "distant permission" just does cut it. The above Scriptures (along with many others) does not allow for God simply "taking lemons and making lemonade". God did these things, not just allowed them to happen. This means that even the tragedies we face in life are ordained and controlled by a sovereign God.

God Bless,

PL

B. W. wrote:Is mankind an absolute passive agent in God's work?

Of salvation? Yes. Otherwise, salvation would require action (work).

B. W. wrote:Or is the Lord restoring the broken relationship between God and man? Relationship involves 2 parties working in unison not one dictatorship over another. Agape love seeks relationship not dictatorship. Think about it for awhile.

B.W.

Let me ask you. Is the Lord restoring the broken relationship? Is He succeeding?

The biggest problem with your statement is that is blurs the relationship with God and man, assuming like many do, that they are two equal partners. Too many Christians today approach the faith with a "Jesus is my boyfriend" mentality. God is the "Great king", we are the vassals. God is the shepherd, we are the sheep. God is the potter, we are the clay. God's relationship IS a dictatorship, not a democracy.

B. W. wrote:Again — how does God show mercy? To a few? To all? What is the result of mercy?

Mercy results in salvation (Romans 9:23). He gives it to whomever He will (Romans 9:15).

B. W. wrote:How does God's mercy work? Pure determinism of God's part or the revelation of what God is like - That God foreknows everything before anything ever was? Before anything ever was - needed mercy or not?

God foreknew (foreloved) and predestines. He works ALL things to the counsel of His will.

B.W. Maybe you can answer another question that I haven't gotten a clear answer to.

If "foreknowledge" is merely "knowing beforehand", then what did God foreknow in order to save people?

He chose us in Him to be holy and blameless, not because He foreknew that we would be holy and blameless.

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:B.W.

Not only is "extreme predeterminism" biblical (See Isaiah 46:9-11; Daniel 4:35; Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11), it is what makes God God. Without it, we live in a world governed by undesigned chance or blind fate. God's sovereignty is denied, and God is not God.

Maybe you can answer the following questions. Did God "predestine" Absalom's incest? Did He do it openly before all Israel (2 Samuel 12:12)? Did God send Joseph into Egypt (Genesis 45:7)? How? Did God bruise His Son (Isaiah 53:10)? How?

Making God's will a "distant permission" just does cut it. The above Scriptures (along with many others) does not allow for God simply "taking lemons and making lemonade". God did these things, not just allowed them to happen. This means that even the tragedies we face in life are ordained and controlled by a sovereign God.

God Bless,

PL

Unfortunately PL you are missing the point:

My point was as the bible teaches that God's predestination is totally contingent upon God's Foreknowing. Romans 8:29, Ephesians 1:3-6, and 1Peter 1:2. From this, I am exploring the aspects God's Foreknowledge which only a sovereign God can exercise. To say, as you pose, that God cannot exercise this type of sovereign foreknowledge because it exalts man and makes God a slave to chance is ludicrous.

From what I have read from your argument is that God's Foreknowing is totally contingent upon God's predestination as God is too unintelligent to foreknow everything and must control like man — by pure determinism alone with no foreknowledge necessary. You appear to only read and interpret scriptures in that light and thus cannot really see the ways of the Lord and do not understand what his will really is about.

PL, God is more sovereign than you ever realized. He is not a slave bound to your arguments that nicely wrap him up a pretty doctorial box. From what I can understand about your position is that you have a commendable zeal for God but lack knowledge about God. God does things according to the counsel of his will which is contingent upon his foreknowing.

The interoperation of scriptures you use err in how your doctorial position defines the word 'Will' as used in the bible which denotes God's will. The Word used and translated will does not mean subjective caprice, nor does it mean and limited to only blind determination as you adhere too as does Islam.

The Greek word used as denoting God's will is not a demand of force upon a subject but rather as the expressions from God that governs according to God's good pleasure, which is how God rules according the standards of his divine nature and character and his wisdom.

God's will expresses how he operates and carries things out, the standards he uses, which are the attributes of his divine nature at work in many diverse ways and means that carry out God's intentions, plans, and goals as all is foreknown by God and not by us.

This is tragically sad for so many — God's will is reduced to Laws and demands only and thus absolutely no relationship with humanity is at all is possible. If no relationship is possible, why does God want to reason with man? Why grant the choice to obey or not to obey? Why send his Holy Spirit? He selected and that settles it and no one knows if they are really saved because it is as God wills. No different than Islam's definition of God's will.

From your statement that:

puritan lad wrote: Let me ask you. Is the Lord restoring the broken relationship? Is He succeeding? The biggest problem with your statement is that is blurs the relationship with God and man, assuming like many do, that they are two equal partners. Too many Christians today approach the faith with a "Jesus is my boyfriend" mentality. God is the "Great king", we are the vassals. God is the shepherd, we are the sheep. God is the potter, we are the clay. God's relationship IS a dictatorship, not a democracy.

…Proves you do not understand the gospel or its ultimate purpose. You understand the judicial and legal requirements of the gospel very well but stop there out of mortal fear that nothing else can exist; Despite the Bible's contrary message that we are, as Christians, partakers of God's divine Nature and Jesus came to do what? John 14:20-23, John 14:26, John 15:1-5, John 15:26, John 16:7-16.

2 Peter 1:2-11, “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” NKJV

What is God's divine nature that we are to be partakers of PL? We are to reflect the mercy, righteousness, Love, justice, equity, etc, of God. The Lord gave us His Holy Spirit for that task. Following legal requirements forfeit the living relationship of knowing the Lord as John 17:3 states, “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent…” NKJV

So you support and believe that human beings are totally incapable of having such living relationship with the Lord and that by such relationship that shines God's nature you can - “add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love?” You deny such relationship possible?

Sad you do not believe this. Is it any wonder so few have only a judicial and legal understanding of the Gospel instead of its undeniable true purpose? Yes, many Christians are losing their salt and have covered their lamps because of such a dim view. At least these have their legal hindquarters covered by their lampshades but have no light shining God's life giving nature and ability to overcome sin to a lost world — only legalese and determinism. What ever will be will be ka-sa-ra! Must be predetermined, hmm?

Jesus came to offer Life - not the reformed doctrine on predestination.

God's predestination is totally contingent upon God's Foreknowing. From this knowledge God sets things in motion as proof that he is truly all powerful as he can absolutely control all things because He foreknows all things and thus remains in control always active and never passive governing by his divine nature, wisdom, and character as He is God.

If it is as your argument cites that God's Foreknowing is totally contingent upon God's predestination because according to your position this would make God subservient to devils and man. This viewpoint actually denies God's foreknowing has any power to know anything at all in order to govern and thus proves that God is not all powerful.

Your view paints that God is not all powerful due to fear of loss of control and must pull every string in the book to keep order. This is not true all powerfulness as it cannot control all things according to who God really is. To do so would cause God to deny his justice, his mercy, his love, his compassion, his righteousness, and all that He is.

You see, as 2 Peter cites, such a view lacks the knowledge of God. 2 Peter 1: , “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” NKJV

Instead you are left with half a gospel — the judicial and legal requirements while the Lord stands at the door knocking waiting for you to open the door so he can have fellowship with you. Notice, he does not predetermine to barge in but wants you to open the door instead.

2 Peter 1: 2, “who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.” NIV

It is according to God's Foreknowledge is how God predestines not the other way around.
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B.W.,

You are simply repeating the arguments over and over that God's "predestination" is contingent on His "foreknowledge". That, by definition, is not predestination. And you still haven't answered my questions.

What did God "foreknow" that caused Him to predestine?
Where does faith come from?
Does God sovereignly act in the sinful acts of wicked men?

You wrote in an earlier post that "God can change His mind". So much for His foreknowledge, eh? With your argument from the flood, it sounds like God has to keep correcting His own mistakes.

Let's get to the nitty gritty here. If you can answer the above questions without robbing God of His Sovereignty, I'll entertain your arguments. So far, no dice.

Blessings,

PL

PL,

I'm still waiting on you to justify God not being a sinner . . . show me the fault in the logic:

1) The person who does a sin is a sinner.
2) God did Absalom's sin "openly before all Israel."
3) Therefore, God is a sinner.

And I'm still waiting on you to concede to flat grammar as it relates to Eph. 2:8. Question: are you saying that Paul used bad grammar in that verse?

puritan lad wrote: You are simply repeating the arguments over and over that God's "predestination" is contingent on His "foreknowledge". That, by definition, is not predestination. And you still haven't answered my questions.

What did God "foreknow" that caused Him to predestine?

4267 — Proginosko: Before to Know or to know before. To perceive or recognize before hand, to know previously and from this knowledge base your decision on a — 4268 Prognosis, preordain in the biblical sense of God determining to have fellowship. 1097 — Ginosko - to know experientially — to know intimately a person, place or thing based on expertise gained by experience.

It is shame that such confusion arises over a simple word that means God's knows everything. This confusion arose due to very few daring to upset the preordained apple cart. I am using the Greek words as they are defined and used and not as a prejudiced theologian would in support of your position. Such interpretations twist textual meaning.

Either God knows everything or He does not. God has intelligence and bases his prognosis on his intelligence. That is foreknowing in the truest sense of the word. God basis his decision on what to do, how to carry out things, creates, etc… because he knows beforehand everything. Sadly, this concept is foreign to Reformed Tradition ands it influences upon the doctrines taught in the Western Church world. It robs God of his Sovereignty.

If God just predestined or prognosis without intelligence involved then God must be brain dead tyrant. God knows everything and from that intelligently ordains in order to prove himself that he is God and all that He is.

puritan lad wrote: Where does faith come from?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God — His call that reveals in many diverse ways that God is God, does what He says, and all the work of salvation, etc and etc.

Why would anyone need Faith — hear that one must believe in Jesus if God already selected one to enter heaven. He can teach that person in heaven what they need to know. No need to learn of God in this life. If by pure divine determinism it is just “tag your in and you over there are not”. No thought involved in this type of predestination: nothing intelligent about this style of determinism.

How can anyone believe unless they hear? Faith produces the choice that confront man and women to believe in the Gospel message or not and set their course of life by it. God — Proginosko: knows beforehand. To perceive or recognize before hand, to know previously — who and how one hears and responds and thus with intelligence grants his prognosis and thus predestines. Faith comes by hearing God's word. By Faith we know God as Hebrews 11 teaches and come to Christ.

puritan lad wrote: Does God sovereignly act in the sinful acts of wicked men?

According to you point of view — they must as God preordained them to sin, rape, molest the young, butcher in God's name but this makes God the author of sin and negates man's responsibility for his own action.

But for your trick question - Yes, God can use the wicked however he wills and for whatever purposes he so chooses. I went over this countless times. Too bad you did not notice this in my post. The manner God acts is consistent with God's nature, character, and wisdom — that is how he can work things for good, etc.

Your view really denies this concept that God has any intelligence based on foreknowing all things intimately and from such wisdom shapes and places whom where and when in order to reach His final Goal. Yes — Wheat removed from the chaff — dross removed. God testing the heart is foreign to your point of view because your view declares brashly that everything was just preordained without any forethought: Predestination — the whim of God! Bible does not teach God acts on whims. He is Sovereign PL.

puritan lad wrote: You wrote in an earlier post that "God can change His mind". So much for His foreknowledge, eh? With your argument from the flood, it sounds like God has to keep correcting His own mistakes.

God chose to destroy the world by a flood — he changed his mind. I am glad he did — aren't you? This proves his nature, character, and wisdom - not weakness. God foreknew the correct course that proves himself God — slow to anger, abounding in mercy, etc and etc and left evidence of this. We are here because of that PL. I am glad God acts intelligently. This kind of divine intelligence you cannot comprehend as your point of view forbids intelligence.

puritan lad wrote: Let's get to the nitty gritty here. If you can answer the above questions without robbing God of His Sovereignty, I'll entertain your arguments. So far, no dice. Blessings, PL

Only your point of view robs God of his Sovereignty. Not mine.

How do you define God's Sovereignty PL?

You stated that God rules by Dictatorship. Hitler, Stalin, Sadam Hussain, and even Satan are dictators PL.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, 2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Galatians 5:1 Galatians 5:13-14, James 1:25, James 2:8-13, 1 Peter 2:16, Galatians 2:4.

Dictators do not offer liberty, only servile slavery. Jesus said in Luke 4:18, John 8:34-36, Matthew 11:26-30, John 6:35-40. — Note how Jesus describes God's will in verse 40, those that believe in the Son may have everlasting life. God already knows everything, who will and who will not believe, that is God's foreknowing intelligence at work proving himself He is God.
Is God a dictator or a liberator? His own words tell me he is a liberator PL — not a benevolent old loving despotic dictator who only thinks he is sovereign because he can just act like it on a whim.

God is a liberator - Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty not dictatorship. This liberty he grants many use for vice and sin — He truly shows mercy on whom He has mercy and can harden whom he so wants too. He knows all and acts with intelligence regarding this matter. God chooses wisely and his decisions have a purpose as only God knows all things and steers them unhindered to his final Goal.

If God cannot rule liberated souls, he is not sovereign but a dictator — great is this mystery.

The elect are those whom God the Father foreknew everything about because they were the ones that believed in the Son — Jesus as God foresaw they would and brought it to pass. If Jesus would not have come none could be saved. God foresaw the need to show mercy on all so some of the all that believe can be saved by God's hand.

Without God's call — none could be saved. It remains God's work and not man's. God called out, chose out from the masses, according to his nature, character, and wisdom. He offers a question that demands a response: Believe in his Son Jesus Christ. He knows the answer beforehand but still asks the question to all! What a wise, all powerful, all knowing, wonderfully merciful loving God does such a thing! No tyrant or dictator would ever do such a work as this!
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Jac3510 wrote:PL,

I'm still waiting on you to justify God not being a sinner . . . show me the fault in the logic:

1) The person who does a sin is a sinner.
2) God did Absalom's sin "openly before all Israel."
3) Therefore, God is a sinner.

And I'm still waiting on you to concede to flat grammar as it relates to Eph. 2:8. Question: are you saying that Paul used bad grammar in that verse?

Jac,

The problem with your logic is #3. The Bible has the answer to your questions.

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and according to his will he worketh in the armies of heaven, and in the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, nor say unto him, What doest thou?"
(Daniel 4:35)

"But, O man, who art thou which pleadest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
(Romans 9:20)

How about it Jac? Sovereignty has it's benefits.

Now will you answer my question? Did God do Absalom's incest openly before all Israel? Was Absalom predestined to do this? Please answer biblically, not emotionally. God doesn't need us to defend His honor.

Thanks,

PL

B.W., you are twisting the biblical meaning of foreknowledge. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about God predestinating a “foreknowledge of choice, faith, works” etc. This is a pipe dream of Arminians, who want God to bow down before their idol of free will and his goddess Contingency. Besides, I've already pointed out that your view of “foreknowledge” is totally incompatible with the idea that God can change His mind. Now in answer to your post, yet again…

First, no one said that “God just predestined or prognosis without intelligence”. It doesn't help to put words in people's mouths to bolster your side of the debate.

Second, it is true, for some, that “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God”. However, it is a matter of common observation that not all who hear the Word of God have faith (2 Thess. 3:2). So I ask again, where does a person get faith from? What is the root difference between those who accept the gospel and those who reject it? I say election. You say what? What about those who hear the Word and reject it? Is God's purpose fulfilled (See Isaiah 55:11)?

B.W. wrote: According to you point of view — they must as God preordained them to sin, rape, molest the young, butcher in God's name but this makes God the author of sin and negates man's responsibility for his own action.

But for your trick question - Yes, God can use the wicked however he wills and for whatever purposes he so chooses. I went over this countless times. Too bad you did not notice this in my post. The manner God acts is consistent with God's nature, character, and wisdom — that is how he can work things for good, etc.

B.W. You, like Jac, did not answer the question. Saying that “God can use the wicked" doesn't answer these questions. We both agree on that. The question is, Does God sovereignly work His will in the sinful acts of wicked men? It is not a trick question, it's only a clear biblical question with a clear biblical answer that, for our modern Christians, is a bombshell to be sure. I'll ask it again, and I would like straightforward answers that are true to the scriptures.

1. Did God send Joseph to Egypt, or only allow it to happen? How did He do it? (Genesis 45:7)

2. Did God perform the work of Job's trials, or only allow it to happen? How did He do it? (Job 12:9)

3. Did God do Absalom's incest openly before all Israel, or only allow it to happen? (2 Samuel 12:12)

There are other examples, but these should suffice. These are not “trick questions”. They are very simple, straightforward questions that anyone who can read should be able to answer. The only “trick” for you is to answer it while remaining true to both the Bible and your own theology. I don't envy your task. :)

As far as my definition of Sovereignty, I'll simply use the dictionary definition.

Main Entry: sov•er•eign•ty
Variant(s): also sov•ran•ty /-tE/
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English soverainte, from Anglo-French sovereinté, from soverein
1 obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it
2 a : supreme power especially over a body politic b : freedom from external control : AUTONOMY c : controlling influence
3 : one that is sovereign; especially : an autonomous state

There it is B.W. Autonomous. Free from external control “like man's free will”. Supreme excellent.

It is shame that such confusion arises over a simple word pro-tasso. (You may want to look that one up as well). Of course God knows everything, but His decrees are not contingent on “foreknowledge”. Your post is a perfect example of just how far apart the Doctrines of Calvinists and Arminians are, and why seeking some middle ground is futile.

You believe that God can change His mind. I believe that “The counsel of the Lord shall stand forever, and the thoughts of his heart throughout all ages” (Psalm 33:11). You believe that God's predestination is contingent on our choices. I believe that “Jehovah bringeth the counsel of the nations to nought; He maketh the thoughts of the peoples to be of no effect.” (Psalm 33:10) and that He has "declared the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying 'My Counsel will stand and I will do all my pleasure'” (Isaiah 46:10). You believe that God by His own description, is a “thoughtless dictator”. I believe that “He works His will among the armies of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of earth. No one can stay His hand, or say to Him, 'What are you doing?”. You believe that God “knew the correct course” by “changing His mind” and “chose to destroy the world by a flood”. (I'm glad He finally wised up, Eh? So much for “foreknowledge”.) You believe that God's call allows people the chance to be saved. I believe that God “seeks and saves”. (Luke 19:10). You believe that God allows the universe to run by pre-established laws and “intervenes often”. I believe in a God who “works His will among the armies of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of earth”, who “works all things according to the counsel of His will”, and “upholds all things by the word of his power”. In short, B.W., aside from the fact that we are both Christians, we are miles apart. I have no need for a temporary, human initiated salvation, nor to I worship a god of everchanging decrees and frustrated purposes. And as to what secret force can enable a man to obtain the very belief that the Arminian God “foreknows”, I know not.

God Bless,

PL

Jac3510 wrote: And I'm still waiting on you to concede to flat grammar as it relates to Eph. 2:8. Question: are you saying that Paul used bad grammar in that verse?

Jac,

I already conceded the flat grammar. In any case, the clearest reading is that "faith" is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God. Apparently, all Bible translators thought so as well.

for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Ephesians 2:8 ASV)

For by grace are ye made safe through fayth, and that not of your selues, it is the gyft of God: (Ephesians 2:8 Bishops)

For by grace are ye saued through faith, and that not of your selues: it is the gift of God, (Ephesians 2:8 Geneva)

for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift, (Ephesians 2:8 YLT)

For bi grace ye ben sauyd bi feith, and this not of you; for it is the yifte of God, (Ephesians 2:8 WycliffeNT)

For by grace are ye made safe thorowe fayth and that not of youre selves. For it is the gyfte of God (Ephesians 2:8 Tyndale)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8 KJV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8 NKJV)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— (Ephesians 2:8 NIV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift: (Ephesians 2:8 Darby)


The only potential exception might be the ESV, but even that one clearly says that it is not of our own doing, (which adds "own doing" in place of "yourselves" without any grammatical basis whatsoever).

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (Ephesians 2:8 ESV)

The rendering, faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, is the best translation, and agrees with Phil 1:26, which you object to based solely on the fact the belief isn't the main theme of the verse. I would ask, so what? Why did Paul clearly tell us that it has been granted to us by Christ to believe on Him?

And where does faith come from (ultimately)? Why do not all have it? I say election. You say what???

PL

1. Did God send Joseph to Egypt, or only allow it to happen? How did He do it? (Genesis 45:7)

2. Did God perform the work of Job's trials, or only allow it to happen? How did He do it? (Job 12:9)

3. Did God do Absalom's incest openly before all Israel, or only allow it to happen? (2 Samuel 12:12)

I would say that no matter whether God directly does something or works through someone to do it, God still takes the responsibility. It's all of God. If something is not of God the scriptures make it clear. The answer to all three questions are both in my opinion.

Does God ever change his mind?

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.

1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Amo 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

I thank God that He changes His mind sometimes.

Here is John Gill on Genesis 6:6.

"Because of the wickedness of man, the wickedness of his heart, and the wickedness of his life and conversation, which was so general, and increased to such a degree, that it was intolerable; wherefore God could have wished, as it were, that he had never made him, since he proved so bad; not that repentance, properly speaking, can fall upon God, for he never changes his mind or alters his purposes, though he sometimes changes the course and dispensations of his providence. This is speaking by an anthropopathy, after the manner of men, because God determined to do, and did something similar to men, when they repent of anything: as a potter, when he has formed a vessel that does not please him, and he repents that he has made it, he takes it and breaks it in pieces; and so God, because of man's wickedness, and to show his aversion to it, and displicency at it, repented of his making him; that is, he resolved within himself to destroy him, as in the next verse, which explains this: and it grieved him at his heart; this is to be understood by the same figure as before, for there can, no more be any uneasiness in his mind than a change in it; for God is a simple Being, uncompounded, and not subject to any passions and affections. This is said to observe his great hatred to sin, and abhorrence of it."

God was "sorrowful", but did not change His Mind. The Bible is clear that this is impossible, unless the Scriptures contradict themselves. Numbers 23:19 is plain enough: "God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent." So also in 1 Samuel 15:19, "The strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent." To suggest otherwise is to suggest that God made a mistake when He created man, and the flood was for the purpose of correcting that mistake. (It would also, by the way, be the death blow to Arminian "foreknowledge").

Psalms 33:11
"The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations."

God's decrees are unchangeable and immutable, having already declared the end from the beginning, including the salvation of His elect.

2 Timothy 2:19
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his..."

PL

Jac,

The problem with your logic is #3. The Bible has the answer to your questions.

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and according to his will he worketh in the armies of heaven, and in the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, nor say unto him, What doest thou?"
(Daniel 4:35)

"But, O man, who art thou which pleadest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
(Romans 9:20)

How about it Jac? Sovereignty has it's benefits.

Now will you answer my question? Did God do Absalom's incest openly before all Israel? Was Absalom predestined to do this? Please answer biblically, not emotionally. God doesn't need us to defend His honor.

So your god can sin, but when he sins it isn't a sin?

As for Absalom, I've already told you: Absalom, not God, did Absalom's sin. When God said He would do it openly, He was referring to the judgment, not the sin itself.

I already conceded the flat grammar. In any case, the clearest reading is that "faith" is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God. Apparently, all Bible translators thought so as well.

Yes or no: Are you accusing Paul of bad grammar?

I have absolutely no problem with the translations you provided. The problem is your reading of them. You are imposing English grammar on a Greek construction. In English, the antecedant of a pronoun is the nearest word of the same gender and number. In Greek, that may or may not be the case. Therefore, when we read "it is a gift of God," in English, the "it" is next closest to "faith," so it seems that "faith" is the gift. Had Paul used the feminine pronoun, you would be right. However, he does no such thing. "It" refers to the concept of salvation Paul has been discussing, not faith.

So, in your original verse list, we are left with what . . . Acts 3:18 and Phil. 1:26, right? Is there anything else you'd like to throw in here so that we can deal with them one by one, as we have been. I can keep showing how your interpretations are just that all day long. I can keep showing how you are reading the grammar improperly if you like. Take some Greek. It would only take you one year (two semesters) to get to the place that you can really examine this stuff on this level.

If there is nothing else, we can get those two, and I guess you'll have to retract the original argument I took issue with.

And where does faith come from (ultimately)? Why do not all have it? I say election. You say what???

Faith is an attribute of man. He has the ability to trust things, even God. Your problem is that you've arbitrarily made "faith" a technical word. Guess what: it isn't. Sorry. Have you ever told a Christian before when counseling them, "Just trust God"? That is the equivelant of saying, "Just have faith." Some people don't have faith. Ok. And your point? Some people don't trust Christ. That doesn't mean that they weren't chosen to believe.

God bless