Intelligent Design/Evolution Debate

[bizzt]

why? evolution is not a biblical thought, and if owants to be consistant with what one believes, how can they allow for micro-evolution when there is no proof that evolution is: a. in existence; b. is responsible for the action.

micr-evolution cannot be shown to be at work as the time frame is still too long to show that it belongs to a process outside of creation. also has it been proven that such actions attributed to micro-evolution are not part of how God set up life to act at creation?

how does anyone know that such actions were not the result of
'the fall'? christians need to remain true to their beliefs and not open the doors to those things which are not of God. evolution is not of God.

Evolution is but a word Arch. Really! There is Evolution of Cars, Boats, Airplanes. They Evoluted into something Better.
It also happens in Nature
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 416092.htm

Explain to me how you know it is not of God? All you have is what is written in the Bible right? Well what of the things that were not written in the Bible. Radio is not written in the Bible so it is not of God, Cars, TV, Movies, Medicine, etc.... Micro-Evolution happens. Tusk-less elephants have happened do you deny this? Is this Normal? Has it been seen before? Wait a second it does not talk about Elephants in the Bible! They are not of God right?

look at the evidence both scientifically and scripturally. evolution is not part of the creation process, it does not exist. yes i know a lot with God's help.

Were you there? Does the Creation process give us a FULL account of what Happened? God surely gave us a pretty good detail but he did not have to tell us everything that happened and how long it took for that matter The Bible is very specific on some points but others it is vague because we don't need to know the Details!

she engages me and she makes too many assumptions and misrepresents what i say. along with failing to address simple questions without trying to turn them into what she wants them to say so she can answer the way she wants. she has proven to me that her abilities are shady at best.

And why would she not engage you? You make too many assumptions as well! How about saying you both failed each other in representing yourselves! You misled in your questions as well and did not elaborate. She asked probably as many simple questions as you did to her. She can only see what is written on the page so if she assumes you mean something, then correct it and make sure the question you are asking is comprehendable. So what have you proven then? If her abilities are Shady then what do you see yours as?

[bizzt]

First thing I want to go back to the question you asked about Polar Bears...

Zoe Answered your question as truthfully as she could at that time

The polar bears are an interesting case. First and foremost we need more information. Certainly there is some worrying data out there. I think we always should exmine out use of the resources that God has given us. I am worried that there is something happening that affects the food sources of the bear. Don't know enough, however, to feel confident on any direciton.

Then you said it was not good Enough

So she gave her Opinion that it was Micro Evolution based upon the Facts that were already known.

You were the First to get Snippy because she told you her credentials. Then you called her Scientific Jargon Crap. If you are going to have a discussion then please try to clean up your talk and ask people nicely to elaborate. This is a Christian Forum not an Evolution one.

Thanks

[Forum Monk]

Evolution is but a word Arch. Really! There is Evolution of Cars, Boats, Airplanes. They Evoluted into something Better.
It also happens in Nature
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 416092.htm

Explain to me how you know it is not of God? All you have is what is written in the Bible right? Well what of the things that were not written in the Bible. Radio is not written in the Bible so it is not of God, Cars, TV, Movies, Medicine, etc.... Micro-Evolution happens. Tusk-less elephants have happened do you deny this? Is this Normal? Has it been seen before? Wait a second it does not talk about Elephants in the Bible! They are not of God right?

Sorry to interrupt there, bizzt, but I disagree with some things. First, words are very important. They evoke images, emotions, and judgements. Words must be very carefully chosen. We will be held accountable for every idle word spoken.

Second, we may see tuskless elephants as evidence of progress because they are less desireable to poachers but this is not God's intended design. It is the result of the crimal acts of greedy men. Tusks are actually useful tools to elephants in the wild, as well as defense weapons.

Were you there? Does the Creation process give us a FULL account of what Happened? God surely gave us a pretty good detail but he did not have to tell us everything that happened and how long it took for that matter The Bible is very specific on some points but others it is vague because we don't need to know the Details!

Agreed. The Bible is not a history book nor a science book, it is God revealing his love and plan of salvation to us. But God will never act in a way contrary to His nature and this is revealed in His word.

[bizzt]

Evolution is but a word Arch. Really! There is Evolution of Cars, Boats, Airplanes. They Evoluted into something Better.
It also happens in Nature
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 416092.htm

Explain to me how you know it is not of God? All you have is what is written in the Bible right? Well what of the things that were not written in the Bible. Radio is not written in the Bible so it is not of God, Cars, TV, Movies, Medicine, etc.... Micro-Evolution happens. Tusk-less elephants have happened do you deny this? Is this Normal? Has it been seen before? Wait a second it does not talk about Elephants in the Bible! They are not of God right?

Sorry to interrupt there, bizzt, but I disagree with some things. First, words are very important. They evoke images, emotions, and judgements. Words must be very carefully chosen. We will be held accountable for every idle word spoken.

Second, we may see tuskless elephants as evidence of progress because they are less desireable to poachers but this is not God's intended design. It is the result of the crimal acts of greedy men. Tusks are actually useful tools to elephants in the wild, as well as defense weapons.

Were you there? Does the Creation process give us a FULL account of what Happened? God surely gave us a pretty good detail but he did not have to tell us everything that happened and how long it took for that matter The Bible is very specific on some points but others it is vague because we don't need to know the Details!

Agreed. The Bible is not a history book nor a science book, it is God revealing his love and plan of salvation to us. But God will never act in a way contrary to His nature and this is revealed in His word.

Oh I agree with you Forum Monk. Some words have very strong meanings. Evolution has a broad meaning.

Look at this

1. biology theory of development from earlier forms: the theoretical process by which all species develop from earlier forms of life. According to this theory, natural variation in the genetic material of a population favors reproduction by some individuals more than others, so that over the generations all members of the population come to possess the favorable traits.


2. biology developmental process: the natural or artificially induced process by which new and different organisms develop as a result of changes in genetic material


3. gradual development: the gradual development of something into a more complex or better form
the evolution of democracy in Western Europe


4. pattern caused by movement: a pattern formed by a series of movements


5. physics giving off heat or gas: the emission of heat, gas, or vapor


6. mathematics finding root of number: an algebraic operation in which the root, e.g. the square root or cube root, of a number is found.
See also involution (sense 6)


7. military military exercise: a military exercise or maneuver carried out according to a plan

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18616 ... ution.html


About the Tuskless elephants this is still a form of Micro Evolution. Whether it was/or not God's Intention it happened. Evolution is wrong you may say however it is also something that is apart of Life. Now I can see where Arch has a point that Post fall Evolution could have taken place but pre fall it did not. However to prove this based upon scripture I would like to see!

[zoegirl]

Evolution is but a word Arch. Really! There is Evolution of Cars, Boats, Airplanes. They Evoluted into something Better.
It also happens in Nature
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 416092.htm

Explain to me how you know it is not of God? All you have is what is written in the Bible right? Well what of the things that were not written in the Bible. Radio is not written in the Bible so it is not of God, Cars, TV, Movies, Medicine, etc.... Micro-Evolution happens. Tusk-less elephants have happened do you deny this? Is this Normal? Has it been seen before? Wait a second it does not talk about Elephants in the Bible! They are not of God right?

Sorry to interrupt there, bizzt, but I disagree with some things. First, words are very important. They evoke images, emotions, and judgements. Words must be very carefully chosen. We will be held accountable for every idle word spoken.

Second, we may see tuskless elephants as evidence of progress because they are less desireable to poachers but this is not God's intended design. It is the result of the crimal acts of greedy men. Tusks are actually useful tools to elephants in the wild, as well as defense weapons.

Were you there? Does the Creation process give us a FULL account of what Happened? God surely gave us a pretty good detail but he did not have to tell us everything that happened and how long it took for that matter The Bible is very specific on some points but others it is vague because we don't need to know the Details!

Agreed. The Bible is not a history book nor a science book, it is God revealing his love and plan of salvation to us. But God will never act in a way contrary to His nature and this is revealed in His word.

I think (but he may certainly elaborate) that we can agree that words are incredibly important and yet this is why we should be very clear about the meaning of the words. Why I htink we should avoid simply saying just evolution, because this word (as Bizzt adroitly showed) has become so muddied.

Evolution is but a word Arch. Really! There is Evolution of Cars, Boats, Airplanes. They Evoluted into something Better.
It also happens in Nature
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 416092.htm

Interesting...what a shame...

[archaeologist]

Evolution is but a word Arch. Really! There is Evolution of Cars, Boats, Airplanes. They Evoluted into something Better.
It also happens in Nature

i can't believe you actually used that as an example. cars, etc. are designed, tested, then produced by a cognitive force with all sorts of capibilities given to it by God. evolution and natural selection do not have any such powers or abilities.

evolution is a word used by secularists to describe an alternative to what God has done. its implications point away from God not to Him. (i am leaving a lot out here just hitting the highlights)

Explain to me how you know it is not of God?

find one scripture where evolution and natural selection were instituted by God or created by Him.

Well what of the things that were not written in the Bible.

those are the products of the results of creation. God gave man the ability to think, create, to produce and so forth which means men are allowed tobuild, to travel and do what they would like...no where did He created a competing process which denies His power and removes glory from Him.

Micro-Evolution happens

no it doesn't. evolution in any form does not exist. wha you are seeing in some animals would best be described as 'defects' which indicate that something is wrong. we know that when 'the fall' happened, imperfection entered the world; and when we see an animal grow a leg where an antenna used to be, we do not sy--wow evolution!...NO we say--Hold it, something is wrong. and something is wrong, as something corrupted what God had made right.

an example was given to me about drug resistant bacteria being an example of micro-evolution. i explained that when hmans get resistant to , let's say, malaria we do not exclaim, 'hey they are evolving to a new level' NO we say they are IMMUNE to the disease and there is no guarantee that immunity will be passed down to future generations.

the drug resistant bacteria are not evolving, some are becoming immune and there is no guarantee that that immunity is being passed along.

Does the Creation process give us a FULL account of what Happened?

of everything created, yes it does.

how long it took for that matter The Bible is very specific on some points but others it is vague because we don't need to know the Details!

we do know that it took 6 -24 hour days, we do know how long it took.

when you start using secularist ways and words to describe the things that God has done or allowed then you will be wrong.

[Forum Monk]

Oh I agree with you Forum Monk. Some words have very strong meanings. Evolution has a broad meaning.

Look at this

1. biology theory of development from earlier forms: the theoretical process by which all species develop from earlier forms of life. According to this theory, natural variation in the genetic material of a population favors reproduction by some individuals more than others, so that over the generations all members of the population come to possess the favorable traits.

Yes, many meanings but the one we are discussing is the first as related to biology. We know what it is and we know the images it evokes in the minds of the general population. It is commonly believed to mean the ascent of species into higher life forms. So rightly or wrongly attach any prefix or siuffix you like to the word and the root image remains. Because many christians feel the premise of evolution is anti-god, I believe Arch is making a case that the word should not be used in any biological context, and I see his point. However, in a discussion between intelligent, educated individuals who understand the implications and meanings of the words, I think we can afford a little openess about the use of the word. As long as it is agreed microevolution NEVER means that a life form will evolve into a higher order, or become more complex. (A finch may develop a bigger beak, but it will never become an eagle)

[zoegirl]

Yes, but people most often confuse natural selection and evolution.

Technically natural selection (microevolution) and evolution are distinct. This is where even secular high school textbooks get it wrong.

"Natural selection does not necessarily give rise to evolution, and the same is true for genetic drift" (Natural Selection in the Wild, Endler, pg 5)

"Natural selection is predictable whereas evolution is not. Natural selection cannot explain the origin of new variants and adaptations, only their spread" (Natural selection, Endler, pg 51)

"Natural selection is a process that results from biological differences among individuals, and which may give rise to cumulative genetic change or evolution, but does not guarantee it" (same, 26)

"However, natural selection does not explain the origin of new variants, only the process of changes in their frequency" (245)

This was from a Mechanisms in Evolutionary physiology class that emphasised empirical studies relating the physiology to the fitness. This is a relatively new field of study (last 10-15 years)

Even among scientists, it depends upon the application...population geneticists hold different definitions than paleontologists...

Natural selection only selects phenotypes already in existence, new genes must be introduced that lead to evolution.

Oy, a mess, we need to be very clear when we are discussing the matter.

[archaeologist]

However, in a discussion between intelligent, educated individuals who understand the implications and meanings of the words, I think we can afford a little openess about the use of the word

i can disagree with you here in the limited fashion. yes this could take place but one must consider the observers and how they would interpret the words used and decide how people believe.

the car example is a good illustration here. we know that cars, boats, planes do not evolve thus using the word is at times. very misleading and gives the wrong impression.

the same with using words that would mislead others when it comes to who is responsible for life and creation. using words that imply processes that do not exist, natural selection or evolution, is again very misleading and wrong.

plus attributing to them some sort of cognitive ability such as being able to select, or determine is not right either since neither, if they existed, have the capibility to do so.

my point is that the believer needs to remove themselves from the applications, words and other inferences employed by secularists because they are not of God. secularists, as we are told in the Bible, ARE being deceived and we as believers need to describe things as they are, not as secularists want them to be.

we cannot subscribe to the ideas of natural selection because it is a distortion of the reality and allowing for theories that are not possible let alone provable.

thus it is most important that the believer use words and terms that refelct the truth and not open the door to confusion, which God is not the author.

[Forum Monk]

Yes, but people most often confuse natural selection and evolution.

Technically natural selection (microevolution) and evolution are distinct.

I understand the difference, albeit the Darwinian version of natural selection and survival of the fittest is falling out of vogue with evolutionists. In general it sounds like you do not prefer the term "microeveolution" as well, since it implies something other than "natural selection". Arch prefers to call it degredation or a genetic defect and this makes sense as well. Most cases of observed evolution (micro..., selection..., defects...) today are the direct or indirect result of man's meddling with the natural balance of things. Pick a term. I'll use it.

[zoegirl]

But does it has to be a defect? does it have to be necessarily a result of man's meddling? although this certainly does mess things up.

Just as God set of physical laws that we study, such as forces, pressure, momentum....I wonder if these observations are something God set up to keep populations stable in accordance to natural fluctuations. We see natural variations in alleles...already stated previously what I think

Don't know the effect of the fall...

[archaeologist]

Arch prefers to call it degredation or a genetic defect

i thought i just said the word 'defect' but i don't remember.

one of the reasons i am making this point is that like the term political correctness (and words spawned by that ideology), evolution colors the waters, dissolves the boundaries to a point where we can not see the reality of what is taking place.

God is very clear in what is taking place: 1. 'in the beginning, God created...' 2. '...those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life were cast into the lake of fire...' and so on

we as believers should do no less. we cannot color the waters but make clear distinctions which separate us from secular thinking.

if one uses the term 'evolution' the idea is that this change has a possibility of leading to something better (never worse). yet if we use the term 'defect' then we know right away that something is wrong, not normal. we have a clear idea of what is taking place and we then know what we should do.

for me terminology is very important especially if you say you believe in God. what you say has ramifications beyond a descriptive observation.

[Forum Monk]

i thought i just said the word 'defect' but i don't remember.

You did say "defect". It was I colored the terminology a bit. Sorry.

[archaeologist]

But does it has to be a defect

because God created everything in a certain way and said it was good. to say or imply otherwise would mean that God's work can be improved upon.

does it have to be necessarily a result of man's meddling

there is evil's meddling and neither can improve on what God has done. we cannot hang on to any form of evolution for the sake of attracting unbelievers to the faith, a believer has to make a solid stand no matter what and be clear.

if you look at the examples God and Jesus set, you will see they never wavered or added secular thinking to their message or actions.

[bizzt]

i can't believe you actually used that as an example. cars, etc. are designed, tested, then produced by a cognitive force with all sorts of capibilities given to it by God. evolution and natural selection do not have any such powers or abilities.

evolution is a word used by secularists to describe an alternative to what God has done. its implications point away from God not to Him. (i am leaving a lot out here just hitting the highlights)

This is too weird. The Example was to show the Word of Evolution. Not to relate it to The Biological Aspect of it. Evolution is a word used by many people to show the progression of Cars, etc... Biological Evolution as with the Tuskless Elephants happen. Again can you explain the Tuskless Elephant?

Explain to me how you know it is not of God?

NO Answer was given. Here is the question again.

those are the products of the results of creation. God gave man the ability to think, create, to produce and so forth which means men are allowed tobuild, to travel and do what they would like...no where did He created a competing process which denies His power and removes glory from Him.

Ahhh so how can you prove that Micro-Evolution was not a product of Creation?

Micro-Evolution happens

no it doesn't. evolution in any form does not exist. wha you are seeing in some animals would best be described as 'defects' which indicate that something is wrong. we know that when 'the fall' happened, imperfection entered the world; and when we see an animal grow a leg where an antenna used to be, we do not sy--wow evolution!...NO we say--Hold it, something is wrong. and something is wrong, as something corrupted what God had made right.

Did God create a Perfect World? Where does it say it in Scripture? And if he created a perfect World how did Sin come in?

the drug resistant bacteria are not evolving, some are becoming immune and there is no guarantee that that immunity is being passed along.

Actually they are evolving or we could say they are De-Evolving. We are basically saying the same thing but you just don't like the word Evolution

of everything created, yes it does.

Even Trilobytes?

we do know that it took 6 -24 hour days, we do know how long it took.

Are you sure? What makes you so sure? Because it is the LITERAL account of the Bible maybe?

when you start using secularist ways and words to describe the things that God has done or allowed then you will be wrong.

Like Trilobytes?