Ah well, my appointment was canceled, so I figured I'd spend the rest of my night on G&S. Here's a response to the rest of your post. Since you made a big deal about the Greek, I examined Ephesians from that perspective.
God bless
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Ephesians 2:8-10 has been so often misquoted by just quoting verse 8-9 and ignoring verse 10 that what the Greek text is clearly stating is missed in exchange for the wisdom of men and not the power of God. The Greek word Dia used between saved and faith means through — not just moving through something from head to tail and out the other end as in classical Greek but rather to 'move through with an intended effect.' It is used to tie in verse 10 as that is the intended effect of God's grace which brings salvation.
May I ask for your reference on this? I have the TDNT here on my lap (II.65-70). δια (dia) in Eph 2:8 is used with the genitive πιστεως (pisteos). I have five meanings listed as possible:
- 1. Spatial: "through"
2. Temporal: a. of the whole duration of a period of time ("through"); b. of part of a period of time ("during"); c. of distance in time ("after")
3. Modal: a. of manner ("through, in, with"); b. of accompanying circumstance ("with, among")
4. Instrumental: a. with gen. of cause ("by means of, with, through"); b. with gen. of person ("through the mediation of")
5. Causal: a. of the cause ("in consequence of, on the basis of, on account of"); b. of the author ("from, for the sake of")
Now, of these five uses, this should best be considered a Modal of Manner. A corresponding example of this same usage is Luke 8:4, which the NASB renders, "When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke
by way of a parable ("δια παραβολης,"
dia paraboles)." A rough word for word rendering of the last cause would be, "he spoke to them through a parable." Notice that "through" here conveys the means by which the teaching came. Whether or not change was intended is fairly beside the point. The idea certainly isn't contained in the word itself, as I see it, anyway. I'm sure that Jesus did want to see change, but we get that from context and common sense, not from grammar.
What we do get from grammar is a very precise picture of what went on in Luke 8. Jesus had a point to get across. The means by which He got it across was a parable. That was the channel or tool He chose to employ. The same usage applies in Eph 2:8. Grace is the instrument of salvation. It is applied through our faith. That is, our faith is the channel or tool by which grace is applied to our lives.
Secondly, let's take the Greek grammar a little deeper here:
τη γαρ χαριτι
εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως (
te gar charati este sesosmenoi dia pisteos)
Look at the part in bold (este sesosmenoi[/i]. That is what we call a paraphrastic construction.
Sesosmenoi is a perfect passive participle. This has caused many translators to render this "you have been saved." But that actually misses, in my opinion, the underlying idea Paul has in mind. In this case, the KJV has it right with the rendering "ye are saved." The emphasis is on the results of the past event (salvation), so that the totality and even finality of salvation is in view. This does not change nor ignore the fact that salvation is a past, completed event that cannot be altered. Paul, however, has much more in mind then simply saying, "You have fire insurance." He is pointing to their entire life, and saying the salvation they have experienced and are experiencing is through their faith. It is always through faith, BW. That is, AGAIN, why I say that faith is important. Can it be lost? Yup, and that would be terrible! Why would it be terrible? They would not lose their salvation, but they would most certainly lose their enjoyment of the blessings that come with living a life of salvation. They would fall under the wrath of the apostate. That, my friend, is a terrible thing.
So, again, I would like to see a reference to your previous statement about the difference in usage in classical vs. koine Greek. You could be right, but I don't see it in the TDNT, nor in the NIDNTT. I also don't see how the word is used to connect to verse 10, which beings with γαρ ("gar"), which is an explanatory word. You'll have to provide me with something a lot more detailed than a simple assertion that
dia means to "move through with an intended effect" and connects to verse 10. Where are you getting your information from?
In Ephesians 2:4-5 it states that Grace of God involves his great love. This is a common element of Grace and faith — returning to the theme of God's love.
First, I've never denied that God is gracious because He loves us. I sincerely hope you don't think I separate the two!
Second, your brief statement here is too vague. The verse does NOT say that the grace of God "involves" His great love. It says, "But
because of his great love . . ." That is a lot more than mere involvement, BW. It says that God's love is the cause of His grace. It is His grace that saves, and He saves us because He loves us.
Note that Faith works by love in Galatians 5:6.
Here, Paul is talking to saved people about their lifestyles. The faith under discussion is not the faith that saves, but the faith that is opposed to the Law. Faith is manifested through love, or put differently, it is by love the faith reveals itself. Bear in mind that the Galatians had fallen to false doctrine. They had, if you want to be technical, lost their faith, for they had started believing a different "gospel." Beginning by the Spirit, they were trying to complete their Christians walks by following the Law. Paul therefore exhorts them to throw off the yoke of the Law, which is fleshly, and live under Grace, which is spiritual. Thus, they were to live by faith and not by Law. Does this mean that they were not saved if they continued to try to live under the Law? Of course not! But it means that they would not be living by faith, which in turn would mean that they could not manifest love for one another. That would result in the list of vices we find later in the chapter.
Also realize that the ancient Hebrew idea about grace is summed up as 'loving-kindness' and Paul himself knew all about this from his historical background and training. He would have known and discussed Psalms 107 due to his educational background.
I have no problem with the idea of loving-kindness. What would make you think I do? Do you really believe that if we don't love people, then we are going to Hell? God's grace to us is based on HIS loving-kindness. That has no bearing on our behavior, BW.
Note that it does not say in John 3:16, “for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that you can lose your faith in Him,” but rather, “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.” NKJV --WILL NOT PERISH means what Jac? - Do yu have Faith in this? If will not perish - how can you lose it? The gifts and callings of God are what?
You have got to be kidding me. So you believe that if we lose our faith then we will go to Hell? The text doesn't say that. It says just the opposite. It says that if we believe--it says that EVERYONE who believes--then we will NOT perish. Ever. That means that if I believe and later stop believing, then I will NOT perish. You ask me if I believe that. How many times have I said that I believe we cannot lose our salvation? It is you who should be answering the question, not me. You seem to believe that if a person loses their faith then they will perish. Of course, you profess to believe in the doctrine of eternal security, so you have to fall back on the idea that "such people never really believed in the first place."
Of course . . . John 3:16 doesn't say that. I can't find a single verse that says that, actually. Which goes back to what I have been asking for throughout this entire thread. Show me ONE verse that says if you stop believing then you never believed in the first place. It should be really, really easy. Just show me chapter and verse. In the meantime, John 3:16 supports my belief. If I believe, then I will NEVER perish, even if I stop believing.
From Ephesians 2:4-5 this theme leads to verses 8 and 9 and uncovers the intended effect such grace has on faith in verse 10 as God making us his masterpiece [Eph 2: 22] created shaped in/by Christ Jesus for a new vocation of good virtues. These good virtues are described later in Eph 3:16-17 which ties masterpiece — Christ in you - back to theme of love. The vocation of good virtues is later described by Paul in Eph 4:21-31. Again Eph 5:1-2, 8-17 returns us back to what the masterpiece we are being shaped into is as well as what the vocation of good virtue we are to now walk consist of.
Again, I have never denied that Jesus is working on us to conform is, even in this life, into His own image. That is called progressive sanctification.
Stop a second, BW. I want you stop and just read me closely for one second. Do you really believe that I reject the notion of progressive sanctification? Do you REALLY believe that I don't know what progressive sanctification is or that I don't believe in it? If we had never had this conversation, and someone had asked if you if you knew whether or not I believed in progressive sanctification, what would you have said? You, and everyone on this board, knows I hold the idea in very high regard. Now - BW - if your interpretation of me causes you to read me as if I don't believe in this very fundamental doctrine, don't you think it is likely that you are misreading me? Don't you think it is likely that you are misunderstanding me?
Yes, God is at work in us. He loves us. That is why He works on us. Does that guarantee our perseverance? No. Does that guarantee that our faith will always be with us? No.
Note: A word for word English translation from Greek text misses much of the Greek and a person will have too add a few words to uncover the richness of the Greek text into English — This is what I attempted to do as well as line it up with the pattern clearly written later in Paul's letter in this personal translation below of Eph 2:8-10.
Eph 2:8-10, “God's grace which brings salvation 'to move through with an intended effect on' faith [trust God alone] this is God's gift, so you will not trust yourself and in your own works: Him! Will be busy fashioning you into his masterpiece created in Christ Jesus for a vocation of good virtues which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that you will live by these.”
What is your basis for this translation? Where did you get this from? It looks like you took some interlinear and copy/pasted and then added a few words from the Amplified Bible? Anyway, I won't bother critiquing it, because I don't see how it is very relevant to our conversation.
The intended effect of Grace/salvation is to — change - faith to be in God alone and not in ourselves or in our own works.
This is very wrong. You have this exactly backwards, BW. Salvation doesn't move our faith from ourselves to God (unless you are a Calvinist who believes regeneration precedes faith!). It is when we move our faith from whatever it is in to God that we are saved. How could you get such a backwards idea out of Eph 2:8-10? I really need to see you explain that.
God is busy fashioning us into His masterpiece created in/by Christ Jesus for a life's vocation of good virtues, transforming us into a good nature, and excellent character, which God prepared beforehand [predestined] that we will live by these. This is God's gift least anyone should boast.
Again, I have no disagreement with this. It's just progressive sanctification. What would make you think I did?
Faith in self will be removed and faith in God alone cemented in such manner you cannot lose it. That is his gift of love — to change our and your faith to rest in God — his Grace through faith.
Again, you have this completely backwards.
I think I see what you have done. I think I finally see the root of your problem. You are confusing progressive sanctification with positional sanctification. Ok, let me walk you through this.
I agree that it is by God's grace, that is, it is His gift, that we are progressively sanctified and made more like Him. And grace, even in the progressive sense, is always through faith. I harshly repudiate works based sanctification. In fact, that is the very thing that Paul was so angry about with the Galatians. They had abandoned a grace based sanctification for a works based one.
I also believe that it is by God's grace, that is, it is His gift, that we are positionally sanctified. That grace is also through faith. These two sanctifications, though, are far from the same thing. God does progressively sanctify me so that I might be positionally sanctified. That is Roman Catholic theology (and it is one of my arguments with K - it appears to be dangerously close to what he believes). That idea is infused righteousness rather than imputed righteousness.
Now--please read me carefully here, because this is important--while there ARE two kinds of sanctification, there are NOT to kinds of faith. Let me repeat that:
while there ARE two kinds of sanctification, there are NOT to kinds of faith. Faith is simply trusting in God's promises. That's all. So when I believe God's promise about Jesus Christ, then I am POSITIONALLY sanctified. I can NEVER lose that, even if I stop believing. I now enter into the discipleship process. It is through that SAME faith that God begins to sanctify me. It is not through my works, but through my faith, that I am sanctified. He begins to conform me into the image of His Son, but there is absolutely nothing that says that I cannot lose that faith. The channel can be broken, the ties severed. While progressive sanctification stops, I am STILL positionally sanctified.
What you have done is to miss that distinction, apparently. You have argued that because I am to be progressively sanctified, and somewhere along the lines you have accepted the idea that progressive sanctification will always be completed, God therefore removes my faith in myself over time and gradually places more and more faith in Himself. But the problem with this is that it is backwards. It makes justification a result of sanctification.
You absolutely must recognize that if a person has ANY trust in themselves with regard to their salvation, then they do NOT believe the Gospel. That is why if you believe that confession, repentance, baptism, perseverance (by your own power, i.e., Arminianism), good works, etc. are necessary for salvation, then you do NOT believe the Gospel and instead are promoting a works-based salvation. That is what Galatians is all about. We are saved when we believe what God said about Jesus Christ, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing we have life in His name!
What is the greatest commandment? What was God's desire for his people mentioned in Deuteronomy? God's love is a gift — it is grace that transforms faith and this you will not lose. Grace transforms faith.
Progressively, grace transforms faith. Positionally, it does no such thing. Did you catch that? Positionally, grace does NOT transform faith. You either believe God told the truth about Jesus Christ or you do NOT. There is no middle ground here on which faith can be transformed. Do you REALLY believe that if I don't love my neighbor or love God then I am going to Hell?
That is how I read the Greek text in Ephesians and it lines up with what the rest of the bible says on this matter way too numerous to quote here.
You'll have to do me the favor of quoting some of those numerous texts, because I don't see a single text anywhere in Scripture that guarantees the success of progressive sanctification, that guarantees the continuance of our faith, or anything even remotely similar to it. Further, you'll have to explain how you can read the Greek text in Ephesians that way, because you certainly aren't getting that from the grammar.
Jac, I hope you are not denying this just to placate your wisdom as superior for the sake of simple argument just to be right at all cost — your faith should be in the Lord and not in the wisdom of men. Even you recognize that God will not let you become apathetic. If this is so — how is your faith in God regarding this? Can you lose that?
I'll try not to take this as a personal insult. My faith is not in the wisdom of men. I believe what God said about His Son Jesus Christ, that everyone who believes in Him has everlasting life. Further, i have never said that God will not let me become apathetic. Again, I'll have to ask you to quote me on that. There is NO guarantee that we will not meet such a fate. What I said was that the Gospel has spurred me out of my apathy. Can I lose my sense of urgency and my love for God and Gospel? Yes. Absolutely. Can I fall into apathy? I am certainly not above it. can I lose my faith? Yes. I can.
I never dared nor implied that the glorious grace of God to save those who believe His testimony concerning His Son leads to apathy in fact it is you that implied this, not me. I simply responded to what you said on this matter and commented that easy believism leads to apathy. If you read further — God will not leave his people in that state as he will go after them, calling them to return to him.
Notice the part I put in bold, BW. What you call "easy believism" I call the Gospel. You ARE claiming, then, as I see it, that the Gospel leads to apathy. It is a serious thing to reject the Gospel as presented by God, BW . . . if nothing else, this conversation is certainly showing the importance of this doctrine.
And, as an aside, as I repeatedly pointed out previously, I have never argued that God will leave his people in a state of disbelief. If you can't produce a statement from me in which I did, I absolutely demand a retraction and apology.
This is something the unchanging God has done for centuries for his people — call to repent and return to him. I have been saying all along that you cannot lose this kind of faith that is precious to God as he will apply what ever means necessary to restore faith in Him within own His people to love him.
Yes, God calls people to repent and (re)turn to Him. Is that to be justified? No. It is not. Repentance is not a condition of salvation. Now, your problem here is that you believe that all people who have "really believed" (whatever that means) will by necessity respond to that call to repent.
BW - on what basis to you assert that every true believer will yield to the call to repentance?
The above was written before your response and now I write in response to your comment regarding Luke 8:13. I will answer with:
2 John 9-10
2 John 9-10 is about fellowship. It has nothing to do with whether or not a person who does or does not continue in the faith is saved.
There are only two kinds of people Jac and please do not take Luke 8:13 out of context as you have done.
I already talked about this previously. It's up to you to show me where I took this out of context.
God separates two kinds of people — those that are his and those that are not. Those that are his will never fall away. That is the test.
Show me where Scripture says that those who are His never fall away? Jesus says that many will believe and will fall away.
Yes Jac, we both agree here Faith is NOT important in the sense of maintaining salvation (2 Tim 2:13), which is exactly what this thread is about; however; faith is important in that you will not lose your faith in God who gives grace, for to do so God would be dening his great love towards those that believe in him.
Funny you mention 2 Tim 2:13, because it says that when we are faithless, He is still faithful. But, BW, if we cannot lose our faith, then how can be we be faithless? Now, where in Scripture does the Bible guarantee our continued faith?
It is good to hear of your great faith in God's grace — at least you admit to that so therefore faith has some importance to you to move you to an unshakable foundation.
I don't have "great faith." I just believe what God said about Jesus is true. I can't see myself ever changing my mind on that, but I don't know the future. That's why I stay in the Word and in church and around believers. I am not above falling away. Therefore, " . . . I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."
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