Evidence for God from Science

jenna wrote:No, not really. I have disliked and been angry and hurt, yes. Hated? No, even during times of abuse, I haven't hated anyone. I have hated the actions taken, but never the person. But you do make an excellent point!

Oh come on Jen, fess up now. How many times have you whispered to yourself "agh that Byblos, he is so relentless I'd like to strangle him".

FFC wrote:If you can keep even one, more power to you...I'll bow down and worship you.

I can't. Thankfully Christ has fulfilled the requirement for me. I keep God's law perfectly ONLY THROUGH what Christ has done for me. As such, if I believe, his perfect righteousness is credited to me...though I remain a sinner, continually breaking His Law and thus a sinner.

As Martin Luther once said,

Martin Luther wrote:A Christian is always a sinner, always a penitant, always right with God.

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Byblos wrote:

jenna wrote:No, not really. I have disliked and been angry and hurt, yes. Hated? No, even during times of abuse, I haven't hated anyone. I have hated the actions taken, but never the person. But you do make an excellent point!

Oh come on Jen, fess up now. How many times have you whispered to yourself "agh that Byblos, he is so relentless I'd like to strangle him".

Not denying that! But that would be FRUSTRATION, not hate. As a Christian I still love you.

Byblos wrote:

jenna wrote:No, not really. I have disliked and been angry and hurt, yes. Hated? No, even during times of abuse, I haven't hated anyone. I have hated the actions taken, but never the person. But you do make an excellent point!

Oh come on Jen, fess up now. How many times have you whispered to yourself "agh that Byblos, he is so relentless I'd like to strangle him".

Yeah come on, Jenna. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. are you saying that in this one area you have nevermissed the mark?

FFC wrote:

Byblos wrote:

jenna wrote:No, not really. I have disliked and been angry and hurt, yes. Hated? No, even during times of abuse, I haven't hated anyone. I have hated the actions taken, but never the person. But you do make an excellent point!

Oh come on Jen, fess up now. How many times have you whispered to yourself "agh that Byblos, he is so relentless I'd like to strangle him".

Yeah come on, Jenna. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. are you saying that in this one area you have nevermissed the mark?

Agreed, John. ALL of us have sinned, ALL would include me. I feel Hate would be a different feeling than dislike. Never once have I claimed to be perfect, in anyway, but I honestly don't feel I have ever hated anyone.

jenna wrote:Not denying that! But that would be FRUSTRATION, not hate. As a Christian I still love you.

But I've brought you to the brink, haven't I? Spread the love!

Byblos wrote:

jenna wrote:Not denying that! But that would be FRUSTRATION, not hate. As a Christian I still love you.

But I've brought you to the brink, haven't I? Spread the love!

BavarianWheels wrote:

edwardamo wrote:I believe the Mosaic covenant (i.e., the OT law including all of the Ten Commandments) is "for" all of us in this general sense, but only directly applicable to the Jews who were living under it. And please don't accuse me of implying then it's alright to murder, steal, lie, etc., because I already made it clear that I do not believe that, and I would never, ever imply such a thing.

Logic compels me to confront such a statement. How can one part of God's own handwriting be good and another be not good? You uphold 9, but throw out the 4th because, "it's only applicable to the Jews" when Christ clearly stated, "The Sabbath was made for man..."

I respectfully submit that you are rather uncharitably twisting my words. I never said any part of God's handwriting was not good. But not all of God's words are meant to be directly applied by every person.

Perhaps an example will help show the difference. In 1 Sam. 15:3 God commanded Saul and the Israelites to utterly annihilate the Amalekites. This was God's word, and it was good. But it does not mean that he commands all peoples at all times to kill all Amalekites. If you were to find some Amalekites today and slaughter them because of this command, you would be sinning dreadfully. The command was not for you, it was for Saul and the Israelites at that time. So just because we don't believe every command of God is for every person and every time does not mean we are saying the command is not good.

Now there are other commands that God gave to specific people which we can rightfully apply to ourselves, even though they were technically given to others. E.g., He told Abraham, "Walk before me and be blameless" which is consistent with what He wants all of us to do. The commandments against murder, adultery, and so on clearly fit into this category, and we can rightfully apply them to ourselves, even though the Decalogue as a unit was a part of the Old Covenant and not directly applicable to us.

Your point about the Sabbath being made for man is a good one, but I think this is a case where Scripture interprets Scripture, and Heb. 4 explains how the Sabbath was made for man--not as a command for all to keep, but as a symbol of the rest we have in salvation that is available to all who will trust Christ.

BavarianWheels wrote:

edwardamo wrote:I just don't believe it is the Ten Commandments that make those things wrong for us. Rather, they were wrong all along, and God included restrictions against them in His covenant with the Jews, but they are also wrong for those of us who are not under that covenant.

How so? Do you think without God there is law? There isn't. It's called survival of the fittest and those who don't "kill" die...those who obey the "law" of the land (kill or be killed) survive another day. There only exists law BECAUSE of God. Cosmological order only exists because of God...for anything existing is due to God. If one part of what God gave is unnecessary, the the whole of it is unnecessary as God isn't so short-sighted that He'd make a mistake in His utterances. (Psalm 89:34)

Again, I never said God made a mistake with any of His utterances. But to answer your question: No I don't think there is law without God, but there very clearly is law without the Ten Commandments. (E.g., It was wrong for Cain to murder, Abraham to lie, etc.) Unless you disagree with this and think these things only became wrong when the Ten Commandments were given, I completely fail to see your point here.

jenna wrote:

FFC wrote:

jenna wrote:If we can keep even one? On your knees, FFC! I have never murdered anyone.

I find it hard to believe that you have never hated anyone...Jesus said it is the same as murdering them. You need to try harder than that.

No, not really. I have disliked and been angry and hurt, yes. Hated? No, even during times of abuse, I haven't hated anyone. I have hated the actions taken, but never the person. But you do make an excellent point!

FFC;s point is valid and I think bears more self-examination.

To be honest, I think your claim that you satisfy this law is not an accurate view of human nature. Anyone who says they have never hated anyone, I think, is fooling themselves. Even you, Jenna, have expressed outrage over that person who mutilted that dog. Is part of this righteous anger?, sure, but I highly doubt that it is *only* righteous anger, and this is the crux of Christ's message. Our emotions, even emotions that seem good and pure like demanding justice are shown to be depraved, not perfectly pure.

The law was ALWAYs meant to reveal to us the depths of our sin, and in that regard, reveal to us how ineffectual the law is in being ANY measure towards our salvation.

The commandment states we shall not murder....but then Christ revealed truly that it is our hearts that are at issue, not just our actions. I think *Anytime* we have had, for even a split second, despised our fellow man, reveals in us a murderous heart. Certainly it reveals a self-righteousness in our judgement. THink about getting cut off on the highway. Is there anyone that can truly say that in that split second, despite our self control in our *actions*, that in our *hearts* we wished that "he would get what's coming to him?". And even this in any measure reveals a heart that does not love as God loves. So, no, NONE of us really fulfill this law.

The commandment states, thou shall not commit adultery, and again, Christ reveals the true message....that anyone who lusts falls short. NONE of us fulfill this law. Sure, plenty do not commit adultery in the technical definition, but plenty commit adultery from CHrist's definition. We all lust. So we do not fulfill this law.

We should always be careful in considering the ten commandments as the end all and be all of God's law, for Christ upheld two laws: "Love the LOrd your God with all your heart, mind, and soul" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" In these two simple commands, we see them covering ALL of the requirements of the law. And HE provides the propiation for sin AND the cure for sin in our walk with HIm....AMEN...not by my works!!

Ulimately, I thinkno one here seeks to dismantle the laws as they stand for societal uses and good established community rules, nor do they wish to dismantle what they mean with respect to honoring God. What I have seen, over and over, is the arguement that we are not UNDER The law with respect to the old covenant. And as such, these laws are made new with respect to how we live.

For instance, it is not enough to simply establish that you have not murdered anyone. Christ's commandment demands that we grow in HIm to love our neighbors.

It is not enough to establish that you haven't slept with your neighbor's wife. Christ's commandment of loving your neighbor as oneself means that we grow in our sanctification with HIS power to not lust

I think with regards to the SAbbath, It is not enough to simply check off the list that we have satisfied a sabbath day. The Pharisees had all sort of ridicuous laws about how many steps you could take during the sabbath and what constituted work. Christ's commandment to "love the LOrd you God with all your heart" brings a new meaning to a day of rest and worship....one that, like murdering and adultery, focuses on our *hearts*, not a checklist. Are we *honoring* our design from God (needing a day of rest)....are we honoring God with our worship? LOving HIm?

Again, the legalities of the day, I think, merely distract us from the ULTIMATE goal of the law.
Not "did I murder anyone today?" but "Am I, in Christ, loving people the way He wants me to love people...?"
Not "did I sleep with anyone today? " BUt " have I been honoring those of the opposite sex in my thoughts and desires?"
NOt "did I stop what I was doing, its Saturday" but "am I honoring God in my worship and rest?"

Very well spoken, Zoe.

edwardamo wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

edwardamo wrote:I believe the Mosaic covenant (i.e., the OT law including all of the Ten Commandments) is "for" all of us in this general sense, but only directly applicable to the Jews who were living under it. And please don't accuse me of implying then it's alright to murder, steal, lie, etc., because I already made it clear that I do not believe that, and I would never, ever imply such a thing.

Logic compels me to confront such a statement. How can one part of God's own handwriting be good and another be not good? You uphold 9, but throw out the 4th because, "it's only applicable to the Jews" when Christ clearly stated, "The Sabbath was made for man..."

I respectfully submit that you are rather uncharitably twisting my words. I never said any part of God's handwriting was not good. But not all of God's words are meant to be directly applied by every person.

Ok. First and foremost, again, this applies ONLY to the 10 Commandments. Our actions speak louder than our words.

You mention that the Mosaic covenant if for all in "general". Which part of the 4th should I generally uphold? I ask because we don't seem to be in conflict on ANY of the other 9 commandments. So lets look at what apparently was written on the tablet of stone...unless you have reason to believe otherwise.

NIV - Exodus 20:8-11 wrote:"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Which part is the "real" part and which is questionable?

edwardamo wrote:Perhaps an example will help show the difference. In 1 Sam. 15:3 God commanded Saul and the Israelites to utterly annihilate the Amalekites. This was God's word, and it was good. But it does not mean that he commands all peoples at all times to kill all Amalekites. If you were to find some Amalekites today and slaughter them because of this command, you would be sinning dreadfully. The command was not for you, it was for Saul and the Israelites at that time. So just because we don't believe every command of God is for every person and every time does not mean we are saying the command is not good.

These words were relayed to Saul through Samuel. They were not written by God's hand. They were specific and for a specific purpose. The "command" cannot be "for all" since Saul was told specifically to go and destroy the ALL. Saul, as you know, didn't obey God's word. In fact, he lied about doing as God commanded. In short, Samuel gives Saul a tongue lashing.

Saul here has just finished trying to explain his actions in doing God's bidding.

NIV - 1 Samuel 15:16-24 wrote:"Stop!" Samuel said to Saul. "Let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night."
"Tell me," Saul replied. Samuel said, "Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. And he sent you on a mission, saying, `Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.' Why did you not obey the LORD? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD?" "But I did obey the LORD," Saul said. "I went on the mission the LORD assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal." But Samuel replied:
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
he has rejected you as king."

Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the LORD's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them.

So it seems quite clearly that even though Saul did what God commanded (or so he believed), he sinned and violated God's Words. This is a direct comparison to what I've said all along...Cain's sacrifice was not accepted while Abel's was...following God's Words.

edwardamo wrote:The commandments against murder, adultery, and so on clearly fit into this category, and we can rightfully apply them to ourselves, even though the Decalogue as a unit was a part of the Old Covenant and not directly applicable to us.

Again...how can one part of God's word be true and the other not. Logic says it can't.

edwardamo wrote:Your point about the Sabbath being made for man is a good one, but I think this is a case where Scripture interprets Scripture, and Heb. 4 explains how the Sabbath was made for man--not as a command for all to keep, but as a symbol of the rest we have in salvation that is available to all who will trust Christ.

The Sabbath points to God as Creator. His rest was on the Sabbath...He made it holy. If it wasn't a command...God made a mistake. But as I've mentioned before here, God's Words do not get altered. (Psalm 89:34) God's Words are sweet, a light, and righteous. (Psalm 119:103-106) If not then David and God are liars.

edwardamo wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

edwardamo wrote:I just don't believe it is the Ten Commandments that make those things wrong for us. Rather, they were wrong all along, and God included restrictions against them in His covenant with the Jews, but they are also wrong for those of us who are not under that covenant.

How so? Do you think without God there is law? There isn't. It's called survival of the fittest and those who don't "kill" die...those who obey the "law" of the land (kill or be killed) survive another day. There only exists law BECAUSE of God. Cosmological order only exists because of God...for anything existing is due to God. If one part of what God gave is unnecessary, the the whole of it is unnecessary as God isn't so short-sighted that He'd make a mistake in His utterances. (Psalm 89:34)

Again, I never said God made a mistake with any of His utterances. But to answer your question: No I don't think there is law without God, but there very clearly is law without the Ten Commandments. (E.g., It was wrong for Cain to murder, Abraham to lie, etc.) Unless you disagree with this and think these things only became wrong when the Ten Commandments were given, I completely fail to see your point here.

If you belittle the Sabbath you're doing exactly that. God said to remember and keep it for He is the Creator.

My point was that you stated some of the 10 were for all "in general".

There is no Law EXCEPT THE 10 written by God's own finger.
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zoegirl wrote:...I think with regards to the SAbbath, It is not enough to simply check off the list that we have satisfied a sabbath day. The Pharisees had all sort of ridicuous laws about how many steps you could take during the sabbath and what constituted work. Christ's commandment to "love the LOrd you God with all your heart" brings a new meaning to a day of rest and worship....one that, like murdering and adultery, focuses on our *hearts*, not a checklist. Are we *honoring* our design from God (needing a day of rest)....are we honoring God with our worship? LOving HIm?

Again, the legalities of the day, I think, merely distract us from the ULTIMATE goal of the law.
Not "did I murder anyone today?" but "Am I, in Christ, loving people the way He wants me to love people...?"
Not "did I sleep with anyone today? " BUt " have I been honoring those of the opposite sex in my thoughts and desires?"
NOt "did I stop what I was doing, its Saturday" but "am I honoring God in my worship and rest?"

Very well said Zoegirl!! You got it right

Loving God and others fulfills all the law.
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So you're saying God's only written word is a distraction? His Law of Sabbath was arbitrary at most?

Yet again...no one has issue with 9...only one.
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BavarianWheels wrote:.
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So you're saying God's only written word is a distraction? His Law of Sabbath was arbitrary at most?

Yet again...no one has issue with 9...only one.
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I do not have any issue with any of them. Jesus fulfilled the law. What I have read so far appears to me that everyone agrees with a Sabbath rest - thus no violation.

Gen 1:14-19, "And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day." JPS

Pretty plainly put in scripture that it was not till the 4 day of creation we had a concept of time - sun and moon. Before then, there were no calendars. No one mortally alive today knows how long the first 3 days were or when the first day began on what day. From this, I hope people can see and understand why Jesus said, "God desires mercy and not sacrifice," regarding the Sabbath.

Let us not forget that under this present age we are under Grace - Rest - and have entered a new Sabbath where everyday we are to live honoring God by our actions, words, and deeds.
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BavarianWheels wrote:There is no Law EXCEPT THE 10 written by God's own finger.

I'm not sure where you got that bold opinion, but apparently the Lord Jesus didn't agree. When He was asked about the greatest commandment in the Law, he quoted one from Deuteronomy and one from Leviticus, neither of which were included in the Decalogue. And if anyone were really interested, I'm sure they could find dozens of other references that prove that lots of other commandments (circumcision, offerings, etc.) are also considered part of the Law. (See Luke 2:23-24 for one.)

The important point here is that the word "Law" can be used in Scripture to mean different things. It is probably most often used to mean the whole OT Law (including all the commands like sacrifices, etc., not just the Decalogue). But it can also be used in regard to God's universal moral standard of righteousness, as in 1 John 3:4 ("Sin is lawlessness"). And although there is a lot of overlap between the 10 Commandments and God's universal moral standard of righteousness, the 10 Commandments are never presented in Scripture as the definition of God's law in this sense of His universal standard of righteousness. (If that were the case, wouldn't you think a few more things might be included, like maybe prohibitions against divorce, incest, and homosexuality?) This being the case, it is a mistake to use the 10 Commandments as proof that God expects all people of all times to keep the Sabbath.