going to hell?

[Jac3510]

No, not in that passage it isn't. That's why I referred you back to Matthew.

Matt 24:41 ha nothing to do with it:

• 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Hey, cool. Jesus says the devil and his angels will be in the lake of fire. That has no bearing on Rev 20:11ff.

• 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"They" in the last sentence is a pronoun. Pronouns replace nouns. The noun they replace is called the antecedant. Would you care to show me the word (or concept) "devil's angels" anywhere in the passage in question, or would you care to offer evidence that the "the devil and his angels" is the antecedant of "they"?

This isn't even a Greek issue, my friend. This is good old fashioned, fourth grade English comp.

[jenna]

I don't know why you thought I was bringing Greek into this. Matthew mentions the lake of fire where the devil and his angels will be. Revelation also mentions the lake of fire. Unless you think somehow there are TWO lakes of fire, then it only makes sense that "they" refers to the devil and his angels.

[B. W.]

And yet again you say I am twisting scripture without fully comprehending what I am telling you. First, let me say again that it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING. All the verses you gave with unquenchable fire? The fire is definitely unquenchable. To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own. You want to quote Daniel 12:2? This plainly tells you when we will be judged, at the resurrection, not when we die. And everything you quoted in Revelations will occur in the future, it will not happen at the present time, nor has it happened in the past. In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.

More on this subject: First Soul Sleep Doctrine then Annihilationism.

Paul uses a common phrase of his time and day — 'fallen asleep' to describe those that have died. 'Fallen asleep' was used the same way we use the phrase, passed away, today. No where does this mean, when referring to them that died [passed away], that these people were obliviously sleeping [soul sleep] but rather stresses that they were resting with the Lord when used describing God's people who had passed on. A good example of this is found in the following scripture:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.” ESV

Note Jesus will bring with him those who had fallen asleep [passed away] — died. Where?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, “For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede [go before] those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” ESV

This is describing what orthodox Christian believe — fellow Christians who have died before the second advent will arrive with the Lord where they will receive their new bodies along with those who are alive during that time.

Those that had already died, their soul, spirit return to the Lord because the Lord gave His Holy Spirit as a guarantee to live within believers and abide with forever Ephesians 4:30. The Lord promises never to leave us nor forsake us Hebrews 13:5. A person's essence 'in essence' returns to the Lord to wait for the redemption of their [new] body. Notice Paul ends his letter of 1 Thessalonians with this statement causing this to make more sense:

1 Thessalonians 5:23, “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Here is a brief simple summery of the orthodox Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the dead: After one dies, the physical body sleeps in the dust returning to dust [decay] but the spirit/soul, the essence of who we are, if one is a Christian rests residing where the Lord is, or as if a non-Christian, they are brought to a state of ruin in hell's containment. [Matthew 12:30]. One day, the Lord will return and our essence will be rejoined to a new body formed again out of the dust of the earth - Some to everlasting life and others everlasting contempt.

Now what of Eternal Punishment? Is it Eternal or temporal?

Jesus speaking of the final judgment states in Mathew 25:46: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

In this verse as in other verses, there are people who teach that the word eternal, when in reference to punishment, means 'unending only in effect but not unending regarding conscious experience or as you put it, 'it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING.' Next these same individuals state that eternal when referring to life means 'unending conscious experience forever without end.'

Eternal punishment 'unending only in effect but not unending regarding conscious experience' means simply that the conscious experience of eternal punishments comes to an end when one is burned up and become ashes. Yet, somehow the fire of God's punishment still burns and keeps on burning endlessly — punishing nothing conscious at all.

This is taken to mean that punishing nothing becomes like an eternal memorial commemorating those sinners/wicked who have been so annihilated into non-being. My question is why commemorate sin and its nature? Eternal punishment is not punishment when it punishes nothing — does God, then, punish the memorial forever? What sense does that make? Punishing non-being is a contradiction to God's own words [Isaiah 55:8-11] he is faithful to perform. Note: Psalms 9:16-20 and note Matthew 25:46 again].

You cannot punish nothingness because punishment requires punishing someone conscious, not non-being. Should I go beat up a small boulder because I stubbed my toe on it? Can you really punish a stone? Do these really know punishment? You cannot punish nothingness? I guess you who believe this are wiser than God.

Jesus uses the same words 'eternal' side by side in Matthew 25:46 with punishment and life. You cannot claim that eternal, when regarding punishment, has a totally different meaning when it refers to life used in the same sentence, construct, and context. If that is the case, then eternal life would mean 'unending only in effect but not unending when it comes to conscious experience.' This would make eternal life temporal since it shares the same meaning alongside punishment.

If it is the punishMENT that is eternal, but not the punishING then is it eternal life that is eternal, but not the living?

You cannot have it both ways. Either the word translated eternal means 'unending only in effect but not unending when it comes to conscious experience,' or it means 'unending conscious experience forever without end.' Therefore, eternal punishment, as spoken by the very breath of Jesus means, 'unending conscious experience forever without end.' To say otherwise invokes contradiction and proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the doctrine of Annihilationism is built on logical fallacy.

You who claim from Malachi 4, that the wicked will be burned into ashes to prove annihilation a reality do not know the symbolism used in that chapter regarding ashes. Jesus uses the parable of tares and chaff to prove truth. When burned tares and chaff are in reality changed from one state into another. The ashes still exist in substance.

Tares and chaff come into a state of ruin when burned by fire; yet, the ashes remain revealing the true worth of the chaff. Likewise eternal punishment brings one into a state of eternal ruin revealing the true 'why such chaff/tares' cannot ever enter heaven. No memorial placard can do that.

To annihilate according to our mortal finite terms is tantamount to mass murder. To annihilate eternally in infinite terms is tantamount to more than murder as it disproves God's absolute mercy, kindness, equity, justice, righteousness, and yes even disproving his love true, proving that He is a God that abides not according to his word and is not a God of the living. How do you think the devil got away with his rebellion, albeit only temporarily?

What can God do to those that reject him? Take the chaff and tares that their lives proved beyond all reasonable doubt and turn this into the ash of ruin forever exposing for all to see that ash makes dirty all it touches. The ash is spared annihilation for a reason and purpose and that is why such cinders cannot enter the New City to come but instead remains in a place they chose over God: their own ruin. It is true mercy and love that does not infinitely annihilate proving mercy/love true, justice supreme, righteousness wise, God's ways far beyond our mortal comprehension. Amen. See and Read - Job 34:10-33

Daniel 12:2, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [reproach, scorn, contumely, aversion, abhorrence - everlasting].”

Now Jen, you asked me earlier how I know that I am not being deceived? Answer, I am not the one saying — 'has not God really said' like your church does. I do not misquote scriptures. I do not take away, steal, the meaning of scripture to justify man's religious opinions. I do not attempt to destroy what God says nor do I attempt to kill the faith people place in Christ who is absolutely able to save to the uttermost those whom place their trust in him. Jesus honors those that asked questions as he said, 'ask and ye shall receive.' Your church does not want you to ask nor will it tolerate any who ask, seek, and find the true Christ.

Are you willing to come to Christ, now, and flee the slavery your church offers?
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[jenna]

B.W., my church does not do the things you claim it does. I have never heard them say "does not God say". They do not steal, or misquote scripture. In fact, I have OFTEN heard them say "do not believe us, but believe your bible!". You seriously need to study something like this before you spout off nonsense like you have about my church. As for coming to Christ, I have already done that, and my church does not offer "slavery" as you so ignorantly claim. My church DOES in fact want us to ask, about God, becuase they DO realize that asking is a main part of learning about the true God.

[B. W.]

B.W., my church does not do the things you claim it does. I have never heard them say "does not God say". They do not steal, or misquote scripture. In fact, I have OFTEN heard them say "do not believe us, but believe your bible!". You seriously need to study something like this before you spout off nonsense like you have about my church. As for coming to Christ, I have already done that, and my church does not offer "slavery" as you so ignorantly claim. My church DOES in fact want us to ask, about God, becuase they DO realize that asking is a main part of learning about the true God.

Like I said, with all do respect, look on the internet and research your founder and history of your Churches Doctrine. Do you belong to one of the splinter restoration group? I say this because from what you have written here and elsewhere on this Forum, it is apparent that you do not believe in the basic fundamental Christian Doctrines and have little respect for these central truths of Christian Faith. While it is true that many members of your church affiliation have changed their ways and ideas concerning basic fundamental Christian Doctrine by returning to embrace it -- it seems however you have not by what you have written on this forum. Am I mistaken?
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[jenna]

You must be thinking of the WCG, correct? They have totally changed their system of beliefs since Mr. Armstrong died. The Restored Church of God has totally "restored" all of his original doctrines and truths. They are the church I am with now, not some "splinter", who I do not believe are holding fast what they were once taught. These "basic fundamental truths" were never taught by Mr. Armstrong, such as the reality of heaven and hell. These are nothing more than a myth, and while I do have respect for those who hold fast to those beliefs, that doesn't mean that I have to agree. Not agreeing does not mean that I am not a Christian.

Hi Jen - B. W. Here - I am a nasty old moderator and chose to add a quote here and a link in response to this just to save space and time - your post remains unchanged:

See Link article on your Founder from CRI

Most of what I read on forum from you is Armstrongism - plain and simple.

[FFC]

I have always believed in the doctrine of a conscious burning hell for sinners because that is what I have always been taught. I never have completely understood it however. Why would a loving God who's mercy endures forever subject one of His creatures to unending torment in hell for a sin nature passed down because of someone else transgression, or even for a lifetime of sin. This seems like overkill to me. What of loving our enemies? Does God cease to be loving and merciful after a sinner dies in his sin? I fully realize that we can see this doctrine in the scriptures. I just do not understand it.

[jenna]

No, God never ceases to be loving and merciful. The idea of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly and is nowhere backed up in scripture. However, hell is real, but the ones thrown in hell will simply burn up and be gone forever. This IS backed up by scripture.

[BavarianWheels]

I have always believed in the doctrine of a conscious burning hell for sinners because that is what I have always been taught. I never have completely understood it however. Why would a loving God who's mercy endures forever subject one of His creatures to unending torment in hell for a sin nature passed down because of someone else transgression, or even for a lifetime of sin. This seems like overkill to me. What of loving our enemies? Does God cease to be loving and merciful after a sinner dies in his sin? I fully realize that we can see this doctrine in the scriptures. I just do not understand it.

One simple verse introduces a wrench into what you've always been taught.

Jude 1:7 - " In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burning today? One explanation of an "eternal" fire is one that burns until there is nothing left to burn. It's an all consuming fire that nothing can quench except everything.
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[B. W.]

And yet again you say I am twisting scripture without fully comprehending what I am telling you. First, let me say again that it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING. All the verses you gave with unquenchable fire? The fire is definitely unquenchable. To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own. You want to quote Daniel 12:2? This plainly tells you when we will be judged, at the resurrection, not when we die. And everything you quoted in Revelations will occur in the future, it will not happen at the present time, nor has it happened in the past. In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.

Let me get this straight, you stated, “To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own.”

So you mean an unquenchable fire goes out and thus eternal flames are not eternal because they consume all the fuel needed to burn eternally? If you are correct, then you must apply the logic to the word eternal translated elsewhere in the bible. Therefore everlasting life ceases living because eternal does not mean eternal.

According to this line of logic, people need food, water, and shelter in order to live; thus, eternal life only can last as long as food, water, and shelter last because you need these in order to live. Therefore God's word is conditional upon man's interpretations and work gathering food, water, and finding shelter. This would mean that eternal is not eternal in any sense of the word so why use it?

You cannot pick and choose what eternal means to suite your own taste and philosophical reasoning. Since God can make a bush burn and not consume it; he therefore can make fire last forever without need for fuel! Where does it say in the bible that God needs fuel to keep the eternal fires of hell burning forever? [Scripture Please not Philosophy]

Is God's power dependant upon outside resources? He created the universe 'out of nothing' surly he can eternally punish and keep the flames burning eternally as he so wills just as he says he will do so - forever! Nothing is too difficult for him the bible declares. Yet you make this too difficult for God by use of human philosophic reason that teaches that God is not as the bible reveals but rather that God is dependant upon finite resources and human ideas concerning what makes mercy merciful.

Next, you stated smugly that, “In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.”

This is built upon your presupposition that God cannot make a fire burn forever due to fuel being extinguished as well as that everlasting punishment does not mean everlasting on the simple presupposition the word life is not attached to it.

Annihilationism attempts to make this case by stating that the words translated eternal/everlasting in the bible only mean a succession of temporal ages or a series of connected time epochs, unless the word life is placed directly next too it. Only then it can it mean without end.

This is poor grammar because both terms are used in same context and sentence in Matthew 25:46, and are connected to each other thus mean the same thing. Punishment punishes life — not punishing into non-being: Either a person will have eternal living everlasting life with God or eternal living everlasting punishment reaping what they have sown because that is how a holy and sovereign God wills it.

You need a tremendous amount of human opinionated scripture twisting justification for changing these word meanings to justify reducing 'eternal' to mean lasting through a few ages. The word 'eternal' means 'never ending without cease forever' when applied both to punishment/recompense and life. If it is the punishment that is eternal, but not the punishing as you aptly stated, then is it, eternal life that is eternal, but not the living? You cannot have it both ways.

Is God Eternal but not his living since the word life/living is not used side by side right next to the word eternal or everlasting when bible says God is the eternal everlasting God? Note: Psalms 41:13, Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26.

Would Jeremiah 10:10 mean that God is living but he as king only can last for a few ages since the word translated 'living' is not placed directly next to the word translated 'everlasting' so we can easily read it? [Those those wise, Jeremiah 10:10 is a proof text that Jesus is certainly God manifest in human form i.e. Trinity - Hint- chay].

To say eternal does not mean eternal in one part of a sentence and not the next is a contradiction proving beyond all reasonable doubt that the doctrine of Annihilationism is built on philosophical doctrines of men, not on sound biblical theology, and is a logical fallacy. The Annihilatist writing on this very thread shows that they put more faith in men who need fuel rather than God who 'created out of nothing.'

Psalms 9:15-17, “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.” MKJV

Daniel 12:2, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [reproach, scorn, contumely, aversion, abhorrence: all everlasting]” ESV
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[B. W.]

No, God never ceases to be loving and merciful. The idea of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly and is nowhere backed up in scripture. However, hell is real, but the ones thrown in hell will simply burn up and be gone forever. This IS backed up by scripture.

I have always believed in the doctrine of a conscious burning hell for sinners because that is what I have always been taught. I never have completely understood it however. Why would a loving God who's mercy endures forever subject one of His creatures to unending torment in hell for a sin nature passed down because of someone else transgression, or even for a lifetime of sin. This seems like overkill to me. What of loving our enemies? Does God cease to be loving and merciful after a sinner dies in his sin? I fully realize that we can see this doctrine in the scriptures. I just do not understand it.

As for your next argument Jen and also to help clarify for FCC and answer his honest inquiry:

God granted the gift of life to humanity - as we live - saint or sinner - this spirit of life is his and gives us our being. It is a demonstration of mercy and love that he does not annihilate into non-existence but rather instead grants those that reject him a place they chose.Romans 1:20, Romans 2:2-11.

The bible declares in Job 34:14-15 that this is true: "If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, 15 all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust." ESV

It is his breath of life he gives. You have life on loan from God. What will you or I do with it?

I understand how you feel about people being in eternal torment forever for finite sins but what of God's position on this matter and his perspective? His mercy and love is far above our moral and mortal comprehension . You compare finite sins being punished forever rather as extreme'overkill' but is it really when in fact, in eternity, these little sins lead to ruin in perpetuity if not contained Matthew 5:21-48, Mark 9:42-50? So to annihilate according to your view as fairer but would this not violate God's own gift and word he promises to keep? [And - Yes Jen Jesus says Hell is eternal as well as the punishment — the bible does so teach this see the bible links.]

Romans 11:29, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” To annihilate into non-being would make God a lair about this. That is why it is his will for eternal punishment which is just recompenses never ending. To allow these the benefit of annihilation would in essence prove these got away with sin. A place of containment is more merciful than that of extinction, no matter how everlasting the ruin.

If one rejects the Lord, he rejects them. Fair is fair. If one rejects him in this life what makes you think in eternity they would not continue to abuse the goodness of God? How can God be true to his own Goodness if he annihilates? Rather would not Goodness design a place of containment to contain evil where it can run amuck and burn freely, revealing the ruin one chose instead of God?

God does all he can to keep a person from going into the eternal pit of ruin, in fact thrice with a man. Despite this, you still call God unjust, unkind, unloving, not merciful to send off the rejecters to eternal recompense?

Job 33:26-32, “…Then man prays to God, and he [God] accepts him; he [the man] sees his [God's] face with a shout of joy, and he [God] restores to man his righteousness. 27 He [the man] sings before men and says: 'I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. 28 He [God] has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.' 29 "Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life. 31 Pay attention, O Job, listen to me; be silent, and I will speak. 32 If you have any words, answer me; speak, for I desire to justify you.33 If not, listen to me; be silent, and I will teach you wisdom.” ESV

What proves mercy true — a life sentence or extinction? What demonstrates love's reality - a life sentence or extinction? What express honest goodness - a life sentence or extinction? What do you deserve - a life sentence or extinction?

And - Jen - you still want to call God's eternal recompense unfair?
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[jenna]

First, I never called God's recompense "unfair". That was YOUR words, not mine. YOU are the one who is twisting scripture here. It is funny how you keep on supplying the same scriptures over and over, even when they have been explained. Get your facts straight. There is NOWHERE in the bible that says sinners will burn forever. NOWHERE. However, there is PLENTY of scripture that says otherwise.

[B. W.]

First, I never called God's recompense "unfair". That was YOUR words, not mine. YOU are the one who is twisting scripture here. It is funny how you keep on supplying the same scriptures over and over, even when they have been explained. Get your facts straight. There is NOWHERE in the bible that says sinners will burn forever. NOWHERE. However, there is PLENTY of scripture that says otherwise.

Are you sure??? hmmm...

Mark 9:42-46 "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 So if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life injured than to have two hands and go to hell, to the fire that cannot be put out. 44 In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 46 In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out." ISV

Matthew 5:21-22, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire." ESV

Job 26:4-6, "With whose help have you uttered words, and whose breath has come out from you? 5 The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. 6 Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering." ESV

Deu 32:22, "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol..." ESV

Luke 16:23-24, "...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" ESV

The Second Death...

Rev 20:13-15, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." ESV

Matthew 25:41, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..."

Matthew 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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[BavarianWheels]

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What is the punishment of sin? (simply answer as I'm going somewhere with this.)
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[jenna]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23