Evidence for God from Science

David Blacklock wrote:>>faith<< can be an inherent trait in an individual. If you have trouble believing in things there is (at least in YOUR mind) insufficient evidence for, no amount of wanting to can change that basic personality trait.

DB

This is SO true. For the longest time, I have wanted to believe in alot of things that most people believe, but have been shown no evidence to believe. For instance, (not to start another thread) I don't believe in an eternal hell where people burn forever, I also don't believe the Holy Spirit is an actual being. Again this is not to start another topic, but merely expressing some thoughts here.

torquemada wrote:

They do contradict each other, I agree with that. But it is my HOPE that God forgives those who never get to hear the Word. I don't actually know that they do get to Heaven, but assuming from Gods forgiveness it “may” be a possibility.

thanks for admitting this. i cant see why it's such a difficult thing for people to admit. it doesn't really change much to make this statement...

I believe God is forgiving, so I will leave it to his hands. People can never change how it is actually worked; we can only change our acceptance of God and His will. What else can we do?

torquemada wrote:

That is the only thing I can logically give an exception to. (in my mind) And that exception does not shatter the foundation of Christianity for me. I can live with that comfortably

granted. but can you see how some other's might feel more strongly about the contradiction of the statement, and perhaps have a more of a struggle with it?

I can understand why they struggle with it, but I will not have it shake my faith to dismiss the Bible as Gods Word. If you read the very first post you may understand why I say this.

torquemada wrote:

I come to the conclusion of "People who do not get a chance to hear the Word, being accepted in to heaven" by other scripture that shows God as a forgiving and merciful God.

agreed. but what about the post by sleep suggesting that this same exception may also be applied to those based on their understanding the scripture as well?

Please point out this post so I can further understand what you are getting at.

torquemada wrote:

Your ticket to Everlasting Life does require some faith,

i believe the bible demands faith, not just requires "some."

Agreed, I responded they way I did because I get the feeling the original poster "sleeps" is lacking faith. He may not be, but I get the feeling he needs faith to accept the things he cannot understand without actual proof. He questions A LOT; questions that the answers require faith and not proof; It appears like he is losing his faith, or this is what I perceive from the postings.

Again I could be wrong on my assumption. Only he responding and straightening it out can I be sure. I probably should have said the Bible demands faith, instead of requires some faith.

torquemada wrote:

Notice where is says “firm belief in something for which there is no proof”

as i understand it, that is the meaning of 'faith.' that being said, how does one prove God (or truth in religion) via science?

I do not think science will ever prove that there is or isn't a GOD.

What we can do as Christians is have faith that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, have faith that God would not allow it to be incorrectly written down when actual man wrote it down.

Now if you have faith that the Bible is The Word of God, then look in to it for some answers, look at the creation timeline for example. It goes hand in hand with how the Universe and Earth came in to existence, then oceans and land then animals, then man.

The Book of Genesis was written before humans had any sort of clue as to how we came about, man wrote what God said. (You have faith this is true or not) We can prove the Book of Genesis was written at a time where they had no scientific knowledge of these items.

I can go on and on with other examples, but I think you get the picture.

The Bible was written at a time when our scientific knowledge was minimal, but the things written at these early times can be confirmed by science.

Can scientists prove the existence of God? NO

Can we legitimize the Bible with Science? YES.

torquemada wrote:

But questioning him to the point that you feel that there is “No need for a Bible” that will probably not take to a happy place.

coming into the discussion so late, i've not read everything. but i would like to say that as i understand the threadstarter, it's not a discussion to disprove the bible (or confirm non-belief) but to rather understand the inherent value of sacred texts and their bearing on salvation.

Here is the original post, how do you interpret it?Here is the original post, how do you interpret it?

by the sleep of reason on Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:16 pm
i dont know if this is the right place, but here goes:

first a little about me: i'm what would best be described as an OEC. i believe a creator God and observable science can be easily reconciled. i do NOT believe the bible gives any irrefutable evidence or even viable conjecture as to the age of the planet. i think the genealogy debate for the age of the planet is very flawed, the product of mass groupthink.

that being said, i'm trying to reconcile my belief in the bible itself. my problem is that any book that was written by MAN, which claims to be by divine guidance, and in itself warns of the fallibility of man and against putting faith in man, for this reason is a book that is self-referentially contradicting. if men are flawed and men wrote the book then the book can't be infallible truth.

i've grown up protestant christian, the son of a preacher. my education has opened my eyes to other religions and science, but i have yet to find anything to even remotely sway my belief in God. however religion is something i'm skeptical of, and it makes me doubt the bible.

so my question is: how can the bible be absolute truth if it was written by men, while inside itself it tells us that having faith in man is the way of death?
how important is it to have a text of absolute truth in order for the ONE TRUE GOD to still exist?

torquemada wrote:how does one bounce their beliefs off God, and how do you confirm God's will for your beliefs?

By killing off the old man sin nature that is inside you and the renewing of your mind... Lust, greed, hatred, and the worship of self must be destroyed within man. It will not be tolerated in God's house... And it cannot be done without the help of Christ though prayer and the willingness to follow God's will... And what is God's will?

If the Bible is just looked on as physical ink on paper and bound with leather, then it falls apart upon examination. A step further than physical ink and paper, bound, is literal interpretation--that is, just observing what it says--the images it paints, the stories it tells. This, too, will fall apart upon examination. But the Bible is more than paper, ink, and binding. It is more than a series of words, divided into paragraphs, telling stories (that at times, seems so irrelevent). The Bible is a living book.

A living book is supernatural. I know in this day and age of rationalism, people tend to shy away from things supernatural but I am irked by that. We have a God who is supernatural. His children, us, witness the supernatural as we focus on Jesus as we live our lives. The supernatural happens! The Bible does much more than protect a pastor from a stray bullet (if he is carrying one in his breast pocket). It can save many people's lives.

There is an attitude of humbleness and contrition that is needed in order to receive the miracle of understanding and application that is available in the Bible. An atheist picks the Bible up and laughs and scorns it, before shrugging his shoulders and walking away. He is not interested in spiritual wisdom and already knows that it doesn't exist. Someone on the fence may pick up the Bible and begin to read it, but seeing so many "begats" (genealogy), they put the book down in frustration. "I thought it would be easier to read," they may complain. They may claim to be a believer but they are not well-grounded in God's Word and are easily swayed by the world (which has winds blowing in the total opposite direction of God's Word). There is no quick fix for appreciation of God's Word. If you don't have a hunger for it, you might try praying that God give you one.

People tend to get caught up in controversy, bogged down by the battles that must be fought, the wars that must be won. They may complain that the Bible is violent, but so is our world. This violence has roots that go very deep into the consciousness of us all. It is not "out there" only. Nor is it on the pages of the Bible, only. Its roots reach all the way down to our hearts and are embedded in the very core of all of us. The battles in the Bible, therefore, reflect the battles in our hearts that we fight every day. Have you noticed that the humble and worshipful warriors (even if they have a very small army) tend to win the battles?

God sent a Savior. He lifts our burdens. He fights our battles, if we will allow Him to. If we refuse to believe in His sovereign nature, His power, and in an eternal reality beyond this temperal physical world, we will miss the wonderful, applicable guidance that comes from God's Word. Without a repentant, contrite attitude and a down-on-our-knees worship of God, our faith will be weak and our lenses (our eyes) will not see how this Book reflects our heart and gives us a map enabling us to navigate this world successfully--because Jesus did this already. The words in this Book will fly right over our heads, crashing to the floor behind us, unless we can get our walls torn down so that we can come to God's Word empty--allowing God to fill us up with the truth--residing beyond appearances. If we already know, there is no room inn our minds for the birth of the Christ child. When we decide to follow the Star, Jesus, we become wise indeed with many gifts to give the world.

It is a strange thing that God requires our faith FIRST before He reveals Himself to us. The more faith we can muster up, the greater His revelation will be. People who come to God's Word with the attitude that it must prove itself to them before they will believe, have got the cart before the horse. Contrition, humbleness, a child-like sense of wonder and awe with a sense of expectation--all make up the most favorable fertilizer to enable you to embrace God's Word--and God's Word will then embrace you. Unfortunately, it doesn't really happen the other way around. The Word says we must reach for God and then He will reach for us. Jesus says, when addressing Thomas who doubted His resurrection until he could actually touch Jesus' wounds, "Blessed are those who can believe without touching." Isn't that us today?

You can access 1000's of inspiring sermons all based on God's Word (just about every verse in the Bible is expostulated on) and you will be absolutely amazed at what an inspired man(or woman) of God can get out of God's Word. Go to http://www.BlueLetterBible.org and choose audio/video. Some of my favorite pastors on this site are Damien Kyle, Bob Davis, Chuck Smith and Ray Steadman. Click on a name. Click on a book of the Bible. Then choose any of the sermons for a treat. The wonderful depth of God's Word is unparelled. I hope this helps in the discussion.

W3RD

Vicz wrote:If the Bible is just looked on as physical ink on paper and bound with leather, then it falls apart upon examination. A step further than physical ink and paper, bound, is literal interpretation--that is, just observing what it says--the images it paints, the stories it tells. This, too, will fall apart upon examination. But the Bible is more than paper, ink, and binding. It is more than a series of words, divided into paragraphs, telling stories (that at times, seems so irrelevent). The Bible is a living book.

A living book is supernatural. I know in this day and age of rationalism, people tend to shy away from things supernatural but I am irked by that. We have a God who is supernatural. His children, us, witness the supernatural as we focus on Jesus as we live our lives. The supernatural happens! The Bible does much more than protect a pastor from a stray bullet (if he is carrying one in his breast pocket). It can save many people's lives.

There is an attitude of humbleness and contrition that is needed in order to receive the miracle of understanding and application that is available in the Bible. An atheist picks the Bible up and laughs and scorns it, before shrugging his shoulders and walking away. He is not interested in spiritual wisdom and already knows that it doesn't exist. Someone on the fence may pick up the Bible and begin to read it, but seeing so many "begats" (genealogy), they put the book down in frustration. "I thought it would be easier to read," they may complain. They may claim to be a believer but they are not well-grounded in God's Word and are easily swayed by the world (which has winds blowing in the total opposite direction of God's Word). There is no quick fix for appreciation of God's Word. If you don't have a hunger for it, you might try praying that God give you one.

People tend to get caught up in controversy, bogged down by the battles that must be fought, the wars that must be won. They may complain that the Bible is violent, but so is our world. This violence has roots that go very deep into the consciousness of us all. It is not "out there" only. Nor is it on the pages of the Bible, only. Its roots reach all the way down to our hearts and are embedded in the very core of all of us. The battles in the Bible, therefore, reflect the battles in our hearts that we fight every day. Have you noticed that the humble and worshipful warriors (even if they have a very small army) tend to win the battles?

God sent a Savior. He lifts our burdens. He fights our battles, if we will allow Him to. If we refuse to believe in His sovereign nature, His power, and in an eternal reality beyond this temperal physical world, we will miss the wonderful, applicable guidance that comes from God's Word. Without a repentant, contrite attitude and a down-on-our-knees worship of God, our faith will be weak and our lenses (our eyes) will not see how this Book reflects our heart and gives us a map enabling us to navigate this world successfully--because Jesus did this already. The words in this Book will fly right over our heads, crashing to the floor behind us, unless we can get our walls torn down so that we can come to God's Word empty--allowing God to fill us up with the truth--residing beyond appearances. If we already know, there is no room inn our minds for the birth of the Christ child. When we decide to follow the Star, Jesus, we become wise indeed with many gifts to give the world.

It is a strange thing that God requires our faith FIRST before He reveals Himself to us. The more faith we can muster up, the greater His revelation will be. People who come to God's Word with the attitude that it must prove itself to them before they will believe, have got the cart before the horse. Contrition, humbleness, a child-like sense of wonder and awe with a sense of expectation--all make up the most favorable fertilizer to enable you to embrace God's Word--and God's Word will then embrace you. Unfortunately, it doesn't really happen the other way around. The Word says we must reach for God and then He will reach for us. Jesus says, when addressing Thomas who doubted His resurrection until he could actually touch Jesus' wounds, "Blessed are those who can believe without touching." Isn't that us today?

You can access 1000's of inspiring sermons all based on God's Word (just about every verse in the Bible is expostulated on) and you will be absolutely amazed at what an inspired man(or woman) of God can get out of God's Word. Go to http://www.BlueLetterBible.org and choose audio/video. Some of my favorite pastors on this site are Damien Kyle, Bob Davis, Chuck Smith and Ray Steadman. Click on a name. Click on a book of the Bible. Then choose any of the sermons for a treat. The wonderful depth of God's Word is unparelled. I hope this helps in the discussion.

Vicz wrote:The Bible is a living book. . . . A living book is supernatural. I know in this day and age of rationalism, people tend to shy away from things supernatural but I am irked by that. We have a God who is supernatural. His children, us, witness the supernatural as we focus on Jesus as we live our lives. . . . There is an attitude of humbleness and contrition that is needed in order to receive the miracle of understanding and application that is available in the Bible.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." John 1:1-5

Either you believe this or you don't. I did not become a Christian until I was 33 because I just couldn't believe what "man" told me. Humans just have too many dishonest motivations and delusions, I felt. I hadn't read such books that are available today on apologetics; I was amongst people (academics) who didn't want to bother with things like that, and neither did I. But, finally, Jesus came to me and there was no turning back. It was one of those kind-of situations where I hit rock-bottom and didn't want to be around any more, even though I knew beauty was still in the world. It just wasn't there for me, apparently. But the Lord changed that, and it was like all of a sudden I was in a different place, a place where I belonged all the time but couldn't get there on my own. So what I'm getting at is that no matter how much you study the issues that are discussed on this board, you'll never be an understanding Christian until you accept Christ into your own being and agree that he's your creator and your LORD. Once you do that, you'll trust God and what he's done and what he'll do, and you'll try to understand him. You won't be trying to be some kind of worldly Christian, but a lover of Jesus and a lover of the world's people through him.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

cslewislover wrote:

Vicz wrote:The Bible is a living book. . . . A living book is supernatural. I know in this day and age of rationalism, people tend to shy away from things supernatural but I am irked by that. We have a God who is supernatural. His children, us, witness the supernatural as we focus on Jesus as we live our lives. . . . There is an attitude of humbleness and contrition that is needed in order to receive the miracle of understanding and application that is available in the Bible.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." John 1:1-5

Either you believe this or you don't. I did not become a Christian until I was 33 because I just couldn't believe what "man" told me. Humans just have too many dishonest motivations and delusions, I felt. I hadn't read such books that are available today on apologetics; I was amongst people (academics) who didn't want to bother with things like that, and neither did I. But, finally, Jesus came to me and there was no turning back. It was one of those kind-of situations where I hit rock-bottom and didn't want to be around any more, even though I knew beauty was still in the world. It just wasn't there for me, apparently. But the Lord changed that, and it was like all of a sudden I was in a different place, a place where I belonged all the time but couldn't get there on my own. So what I'm getting at is that no matter how much you study the issues that are discussed on this board, you'll never be an understanding Christian until you accept Christ into your own being and agree that he's your creator and your LORD. Once you do that, you'll trust God and what he's done and what he'll do, and you'll try to understand him. You won't be trying to be some kind of worldly Christian, but a lover of Jesus and a lover of the world's people through him.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

Amen...

Also and off topic - noticed your Avatar --- you like the show - Dr. Who?

I missed last Friday's show...
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Just thought I add here... If you boil God and His word down (the Bible) you can really condense it into one meaning. That is to love your neighbor as yourself and to love God who is the author of love... That's it. There is really nothing more to understand about it... This is why I stay out these long theological debates sometimes. If we don't have "love" as the focal point of the discussion, then what are we really talking about?

I have to admit for myself, when someone discredits God and His word, THIS is what I feel that they are ultimately attacking. They are attacking this love. Perhaps the Richard Dawkins of the world may not see the Bible as we do, but that could be out of ignorance also. A costly mistake in my book...

BW wrote:Also and off topic - noticed your Avatar --- you like the show - Dr. Who?

I missed last Friday's show...
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whoo hoo, that's three Dr Who fans.

I missed friday's as well, but my brother recorded it.

zoegirl wrote:

BW wrote:Also and off topic - noticed your Avatar --- you like the show - Dr. Who?

I missed last Friday's show...
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whoo hoo, that's three Dr Who fans.

I missed friday's as well, but my brother recorded it.

Zoe - I new you had class!



Darlecks remind me of the Dawkin's crowd !!!
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"exterminate, exterminate"

(I won't give away the cliff-hanger at the very end!! ...unless you want me too!)

zoegirl wrote:"eliminate, eliminate!"

(I won't give away the cliff-hanger at the very end!! ...unless you want me too!)

Don't spoil it! I'll catch the re-showing!
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