Re: controversial scriptures
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 pm
Hi Catherine, I already covered these points amply. I can copy and past again as well as review the use of the Hebrew word translated shades. I can prove that Soul Sleep, Annihilationism derived from Plato's Immortality of the Soul as well as other ancient Greek philosophers. I can review Ezekiel 32 again as well as every single scripture that speaks of life in the hereafter. The bible is so plain on the matter that it takes a re-structure of word meanings, and bending scripture to support the notion that one will not believe in a God who dares to send one into eternal punishment. God is not the happy torturer. The bible says it is a person's —Their- own torments — that what a person sows — they will reap. God's punishment consists of a person's own doings. But you will not see this so….catherine wrote:Hi B.W, I think this topic has three related points to be considered in order to get any understanding about this: what is death and hell? what is a soul? and does God maintain evil people and their suffering in a fiery place for ever? ….You think Eternal Non Existence is nothing to fear. I beg to differ, true if when I die I never woke up again, then I wouldn't know (it's hardly bliss if you don't know). Everyone is going to be 'woken up' at the resurrection and Judgment and when they realize what they have lost and see their loved ones safe and loved their sorrow will be so terrible I shudder to even think about it. Their punishment is going to be eternal: they will never be brought back to life or given another chance. Matt 10:28 we know that Hell is the grave, and Jesus is warning of losing your chance of life again. I hope this clarifies my position and I await your feedback.....Catherine
Let's try another approach:
You support a pro-life position. Where did this come from? You and I were made in God's image and likeness of being made intelligent and alive. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yet, how can you hold a pro-life position concerning abortion and not believe that God also has a pro-life position way beyond the ability that our finite minds can fully grasp? How then can God exterminate life, his gift of life that makes each of us fearfully and wonderfully made into a state of absolute extinction?
God has the sovereign right to make mortal life cease and then usher one into a state of spiritual life to just judgment beyond the grave because he made us, according to his own will, a spiritual eternal being [Ecc 3:11-16]. Thus is God truly pro-life. God will not abort this gift of life — spiritual life beyond the grave. That is contrary to his mercy and great love. Abortion defies love, mercy, and disproves responsibility for maintaining and nurturing life. God is a God of the living and not of the dead [Matthew 12:27].
Bible teaches from Jesus' own words that the Evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy (render useless) [John 10:10]. It is the evil one who desires people to be blasted off into non-existence, as this would disprove God being who he says he: A God of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfect, without sin, without fault, a God of love, A God all knowing, A God all powerfully able to work through all circumstance, scenarios, and things, to reveal and make his glory known. Such wisdom as this our finite minds cannot fully grasp.
God is capable of extinguishing all life, mortal and spiritual, into a state of non-being but to do so would prove God not all powerful. In fact it would make him defy his own standards of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfection; holiness, etc. Causing him to defy his own gift of life he gives freely as he so wills.
Man and women would love nothing better than the state of non-existence as punishment and so would the devil. The evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy. In perfect correlation - annihilation, universalism, and soul sleep doctrines move towards the same goals in complete defiance of all who God is.
Yet, many annihilationist claim an anti-abortion position, recognizing the value of human life but in turn denying the same about God in whose image and likeness we were fashioned. Making God out as the happy abortionist blasting people off into a state of non-being — reneging on the very gift of life he gives [Romans 11:29].
How can those holding the Annihilationist view be pro-life? Would it not be best if some people were never born and exterminated early? How about annihilating an entire country's populace on the grounds that it will help reduce the excess world population thus improve the quality of life for those remaining? The elderly parents — they take to many recourses away — why honor the elderly? Add to this warped mix of reasoning, Universal Salvation, and these twisted ideas can become a justifiable reality.
The Annihilationist, Soul Sleep, and Universalist point of view is an anti-life position no matter how many bible verses are taken out of context and biblical words are re-defined to proof text its validity. It justifies mercy killing but by whose standard of mercy should be used to justify the killing of whom? Such doctrines reason: “These that die — well poof they are gone into oblivion soon enough no more suffering.” But to whom should this apply? Or for the Universalist can also claim: who cares — all will make it so mercy killing would be quite all right!
Yet,for any Annihilationist to claim a pro-life stance in regards to abortion and the unborn is in itself a contradiction. Those unborn — blasted into the oblivion of non-being is an act of mercy —would it not be? End their fear early because when awaken at the last judgment to be put back into oblivion of no-pain-no suffering-nothingness they never known anything at all — how absolutely merciful! Or think of it another way: one can rid the world of the excess population so the righteous can live free and enjoy all the worlds resources unfettered! Add to the mix the Universalist creed and you get a justifiable - why not!
I'll admit this abortion argument is a bit extreme but it serves the example of pointing out the logical conclusions where Soul Sleep, Annihilationism, and Universalisms creeds ultimately lead too: the one whom the bible speaks of as killing, robbing, and destroying — the evil one.
God respects the gift of life he gives to each human being no matter how each abuse his gift. He will require an accounting of the past each has lived and holds them to it. God is not mocked, what a person sows they also will reap the bible declares. This is mercy profound - He does not make one non-exist! He is a God of the living...
Though it is in God's very power to exterminate mortal life and even make all life, mortal and spiritual, non-exist, he demonstrates instead that he is a God of the living, a God who will render each according to his/her deeds in an eternity either with him or in a place without him. God honors the very gift of life he gives proving what about God's character and very nature?
What would not be fair is not to warn of abortions wrongs, not to warn of sins sting, not to shout out that there is another way to truly live through Christ's blood free from sin's hurt. It would not be fair not to warn of eternal judgment that waits in the hereafter. Annihilationism and Universalism in reality declares and teaches to ignore these and look forward to extinction - not life and therefore these doctrines are not from God but clearly from the evil one.
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