Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:08 am**

CuriousBob wrote:...You seem to be reading so many erroneous things into everything I am saying about God in relation to gifts. I would like to know why you are unable to grasp such a simple concept

Without a giver their can be no gift. The giver creates a recipient so the giver can prove he gives (Genesis Chapter one and Two).

It is you who refuse to see the goodness of God in an attempt to justify your doctrine through subterfuge.

You do indeed exist and that existence you owe to God who gave you that existence. How can you not be a recipient of life given to you by God who freely gives?

Without a giver their can be no gift. The giver creates a recipient so the giver can prove he is one that gives (Genesis Chapter one and Two).

You on the other hand, treat his gift with disdain because it justifies your need to be right and God wrong for giving you life. This way, you can say God has to at least give heavenly morphine to endure suffering to be purged so all enter heaven, or just annihilate into non-being because we were all at one time all originally non-beings therefore God is obligated to return us to that original state so we suffer not an eternity of recompense for treating life with such disdain evidence by our thoughts and actions in this mortal frame.

Such attitude as this demands God to become one who reneges his gift of life and the calling of it forth out of nothing — making God a God of the non-existing and not the living proving him unable to keep his word and unable to perform his own counsel and therefore not God. You and the devil would win if God did such thing — He will not let either of you overthrow Him by such means. It is you who are in error about God and that is why you need to be forgiven of such open rebellion.

Universalism attempts to manipulate God as well — so who are you? Universalist or annihilationist — if so what type?

No matter: Without a giver their can be no gift. The giver (God) creates a recipient so He the Giver can prove He is one that gives (Genesis Chapter one and Two). You do indeed exist and that existence you owe to God who gave you that existence. How can you not be a recipient of life given to you by God who freely gives life as he is, after all, a God of the living?
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Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:10 am**

The giver creates a recipient so the giver can prove he gives (Genesis Chapter one and To).

So, are you telling me that the giver needs a recipient? But I thought the giver needed nothing apart from Himself (which includes the recipients of the Godhead).

Besides, why would anyone (including any giver) want to prove that he or she is what he or she is if he or she already knows what he or she is unless he or she is not certain of what he or she is? Furthermore, is it wise to put one's confidence in anyone who expresses such uncertainty about him/herself?

It is you who refuse to see the goodness of God

I am sorry, but you've lost me here. I don't see how I am refusing to see the goodness of God when I don't see how life can be a gift to me when in fact it is me or became me when it entered the body that I live in. As long as I live, I look forward to gifts. But before I began living I had no interest in living because I had no interest in anything. Only after, never before I began to live did I take an interest in life and gifts. As long as I live I can and will thank the God of the living for the beauty that I behold whenever I look upon His creation. But only as long as I live am I capable of receiving as a gift everything He has created for me to enjoy while I live. If I ever cease to live and be aware of anything (in other words, if I ever re-enter the state I was in before I was born) I will no longer be capable of receiving, enjoying, or being thankful for any gifts that God and others might have sent for me to enjoy.

But, it appears quite obvious to me that life is merely the ability to be a recipient of nice things or gifts. It is not to be confused with the actual nice things or gifts. So I hope this helps you to understand why it doesn't make any sense to me when you suggest that my inability to see how life is a gift can honestly be interpreted to mean I refuse to see the goodness of God.

How can you not be a recipient of life given to you by God who freely gives?

I just answered this question in the above paragraph.

You on the other hand, treat his gift with disdain because it justifies your need to be right and God wrong for giving you life. This way, you can say God has to at least give heavenly morphine to endure suffering to be purged so all enter heaven, or just annihilate into non-being because we were all at one time all originally non-beings therefore God is obligated to return us to that original state so we suffer not an eternity of recompense for treating life with such disdain evidence by our thoughts and actions in this mortal frame.

Such attitude as this demands God to become one who reneges his gift of life and the calling of it forth out of nothing — making God a God of the non-existing and not the living proving him unable to keep his word and unable to perform his own counsel and therefore not God. You and the devil would win if God did such thing — He will not let either of you overthrow Him by such means. It is you who are in error about God and that is why you need to be forgiven of such open rebellion.

Universalism attempts to manipulate God as well — so who are you? Universalist or annihilationist — if so what type?

No matter: Without a giver their can be no gift. The giver (God) creates a recipient so He the Giver can prove He is one that gives (Genesis Chapter one and Two). You do indeed exist and that existence you owe to God who gave you that existence. How can you not be a recipient of life given to you by God who freely gives life as he is, after all, a God of the living?

There you go again! You are reading things into what I have tried to communicate to you. You are being harsh with me for no other reason, as far as I can tell. I am hoping that either you will begin to make more sense or that you will at least give me a good reason to believe that you can understand what I am trying to express to you.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:26 am**

A quote from the following article:

When God created man, He was not content with bestowing upon him the essential endowments required by man's nature. He raised him to a higher state, adding certain gifts to which his nature had no claim. They comprise qualities and perfections, forces and energies, dignities and rights, destination to final objects, of which the essential constitution of man is not the principle; which are not required for the attainment of the final perfection of the natural order of man; and which can only be communicated by the free operation of God's goodness and power.

Essentially, God's gift of life transcends our physical being and our limited time here on earth. The true gift is in giving us the opportunity to accept or reject what is to come. So you see, we do have a choice after all. To say we had no choice in being born is a cop out.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:10 am**

CuriousBob wrote:...What I need most of all is an angelic visitation, an audible voice, or a dream from my creator and heavenly Father. Any and all prayers for this purpose on my behalf would be most greatly appreciated.

Let's go back —

I answered your inquiry. It is you who do not view life as a gift, a gift of and from himself called life that gave us all existence. For you to admit this, in your own words here, “…until I decide to adopt the thinking of an unstable or unsound mind or unless I adopt a schizoid personality,” you fear would cause you to be of unstable or unsound mind.

So you show bias and only want an answer that agrees with a point of view you already hold and want none other. No matter how God chooses to answer you - you are not appreciative unless the answer conforms to your point of view. I state this because you began the thread in the same argument style as either a Universalist or a Conditional Immortalitsit (Antinationalist) would. Listen to you own words carefully as they prove this:

CuriousBob wrote:How can any mind be better than "a house divided against itself" or superior to an unstable one if it maintains the position that the greatest of all entities loves its creatures at least as much as the most loving of those creatures loves its own, that the greatest of all entities is infinitely more capable of anesthetizing a suffering creature more than any man (or creature) is capable of doing, but refuses to do so and instead chooses to allow just one creature (let alone most human creatures) to suffer and not only suffer in this life but also suffer for eternity?

Another, though less accurate, way of putting it, for minds that are incapable of grasping the thought might be thus: If God is at least as capable of applying general anesthesia to a man or woman as a surgeon is and if He loves His creatures at least as much as the most loving of human fathers does, why would He choose to allow either any or most men and women to suffer for any length of time and especially for eternity regardless of their choices in this life or why would He allow them only one of two choices instead of three (i.e., Why wouldn't He allow annihilation as a third choice)?.

These are the same arguments they both use. In doing so, these points of view must refuse to see God as a giving God who gave eternity in the heart of humanity, who what he does endures forever, a God who reneges on no gifts and callings because to admit this these truths would cause a person to see that in reality they are demanding God to go against his own nature and character in effect — deny himself and are thus in great error.

For you to see how the giver, in this case God, gives life by forming the spirit of man in him so we can live in the world he made to be inhabited as all a gift would mean that we are held eternally accountable for what we have done with this His Gift of life.

Zec 12:1 -…Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him…ESV

Ecc 12:7 - and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave (5414 Strongs) it. ESV

Isa 45:18 - For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other. ESV

This accountability, as evidenced by what you wrote, would be unfair if life was unjustly imposed by God on non-living clay so he can eternally punish some: In essence you are declaring God cannot hold people accountable for life unjustly unasked for, unsought by the non-existing entity who was brought to life just to be sent into eternal punishment for temporal finite sins.

In other words — its God's fault for forming man, sin entering the world, and how dare God punish eternally poor old victims of circumstance imposed upon us so either He must annihilate into non-existence or universally save to prove he really is like a Father who really loves.

You recognize some issues concerning sin but do not see the depths of it as to where it leads. Such attitude is called divination — manipulating God to conform to man's wishes and judgments thus man taking over God and becoming as God.

So life is never to be viewed as a gift given from and of himself to humanity so we can live and inhabit the earth — it has to be viewed instead as an unjust imposition upon hapless victims or else a person cannot accept God at all being who and what he is — God.

The Bible teaches that Life is indeed a gift from God as it is written:

Act 17:25 - nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives (1325 Strongs) to all mankind life and breath and everything. ESV

Job 33:4 - The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty given me life. JPS

Isa 42:5 -Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it: ESV

Job 12:10 - In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind. ESV

Ecc 12:7 - and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave (5414 Strongs) it. ESV

Since a gift — God can justly hold accountable what we have done with this gift. He will render each according to their deeds.

Ecc 3:17-18 - I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. ESV

Ecc 3:21 - Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? ESV

What you are failing to see is what Byblos saying — God sent a savior to forgive us our sins and provides a way back to God. You cannot see how God is justly removing evil and establishing a new heavens and earth as well.

So let's look at comparing two views -Life not a Gift and life as a gift:

If one is views Life not as God's gift then lets look at where such view point slowly leads too:

If Life is not a gift from God — abortion is a viable option of mercy

If Life is not a gift from God — then 'Worthless Eaters' can be justly eliminated because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…(Note: The Term 'Worthless Eaters' was a term given by the Nazi's to classify the infirm, aged, developmentally disabled, etc to justify euthanasia on moral grounds)

If Life is not a gift from God — life has no value and all is truly vanity of vanities…

If Life is not a gift from God — old hard line fatalism is true — just a matter of selection....

If Life is not a gift from God — then there are no moral principles other than what mankind designs based on mans ever-changing whims as justice has no solid lasting consequences

If Life is not a gift from God — then we are all victims of unjust circumstance imposed upon us by God — so for God not to be — He will have to do things our way…

Since life is God's gift to humanity…

If Life is a gift from God — abortion is not a viable option

If Life is a gift from God — then infirm, aged, developmentally disabled, etc - those society deems as worthless - need to be feed, cared for, and loved because such stand as a testament of human love from the many to the few...

If Life is a gift from God — life has value and purpose …

If Life is a gift from God — old hard line fatalism is not true — it's a matter of God's call of grace that creates a choice when before there was none....

If Life is a gift from God — then there are moral principles that are true and unchanging…that can judge us proving that justice does have solid lasting consequences

If Life is a gift from God — then we are all not all victims of unjust circumstance imposed upon us by God — This means we can be held accountable for our ways and leads us to our need for the Savior — Jesus Christ

Fact is, I have answered you — tried to provoke you to wake to your senses and you still refuse to see the answer God is audibly trying to tell you through my feeble writings…

For you to view life as a gift you fear will require you to become unstable in all your thoughts towards a God who is supposed to love as much as a natural human father would. In other words — You want God to give you an answer that YOU have already conceived of or else HE is NOT GOD worthy to be praise!

God is not a human father — he is the Father of Life — A God of the living Jesus tells us!

CuriousBob wrote:...Why would God allow them only one of two choices instead of three i.e., Why wouldn't He allow annihilation as a third choice?

Answer: It would cause God to deny himself, prove he is unable to carry out his plans and purposes, unable to keep his word. Make him the author of death (real non existing death) which is contrary to who he is, and prove he is unjust in all his ways…not a God of the living but a God who is not God. The Devil wins with humanity made the devils pawns to prove God is unjust and contradictory.

This may sound odd to you, but praise God for not annihilating the Devil and his angels when they fell into sin because it is God who will win! He reneges on no gift of life he gives, so who has the real power?

What you are failing to see is that He sent Christ into the world to save that which is lost in this mortal life. He gives a call of choice to humanity to either become his Child living in his light or remain a child of darkness living where the devil and his minions will reaping all they sow. Eternity seals that deal…

Will you become a fool for Christ — carrying on the Lords Great Commission to those lost? Or remain behind closed doors with a chip on your shoulder seeking to find a way to have God bend his knee to you and avoid your purpose and giftings?

My words harsh? Yes — said with love to provoke you to turn away from darkness into the light of Christ. Was Jesus harsh or a bowl of jello? It was Jesus' love that made him harsh enough to warn us of the judgment to come so we can avoid it — he is the one that tells us of what comes after we are gone…

If you will not listen to his own words on this matter recorded in the Gospel accounts - who will you listen too?
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Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:54 pm**

So you show bias and only want an answer that agrees with a point of view you already hold and want none other.

How I wish that were true, 'cause if it were, then wouldn't I know it? And if I knew it, wouldn't I at least be able to deal with it?

But I can't see that bias and I am sure that I am not looking for an answer that agrees with a bias. I am merely looking for an answer that makes sense or an answer that opens my eyes to a good sound reason for believing that God is just even when He sends those of us who have never committed a real crime to hell. I want so badly to believe as I once did, that God is just in sending most people to hell and not annihilating them or refusing to let them be born.

...you began the thread in the same argument style as either a Universalist or a Conditional Immortalitsit (Antinationalist) would.

I'm sorry, but I have never studied Universalist or Conditional Immortalist (Antinationalist) theology. My arguments along these line were developed using my own logic about everything I have learned over many years through my own personal Bible studies and my own evaluation of mainstream Christian theology and primarily from protestant Christian evangelical scholars who held to the Armenian as opposed to the Calvinist (i.e., once saved always saved) persuasion. I didn't know that I was using Univeralist or Conditional Immortalist reasoning until you pointed it out just now. But thanks for pointing it out to me. Perhaps you are beginning to give me some hope that maybe, after all is said and done, God will again appear to be as holy and just as I once perceived Him to be.

Can you point me to some website where a Universalist or Conditional Immortalist talks about a house divided against itself in the same way that I meant it?

a God who reneges on no gifts and callings because to admit this these truths would cause a person to see that in reality they are demanding God to go against his own nature and character in effect — deny himself and are thus in great error.

I don't understand this at all. I wish you could make it clearer or say it in a different way. The way it is doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.

The Bible teaches that Life is indeed a gift from God as it is written:

I still don't see and not because I don't want to see where these passages talk about giving a gift.

So let's look at comparing two views -Life not a Gift and life as a gift:

I still don't see it, though I am trying very hard.

you still refuse to see...

How am I refusing to see? I simply can't see what you are saying. It makes absolutely no sense to me. How I wish you could make it sound more sensible, because I long for the hope I once had in every word that comes from the Bible.

Answer: It would cause God to deny himself, prove he is unable to carry out his plans and purposes, unable to keep his word. Make him the author of death (real non existing death) which is contrary to who he is, and prove he is unjust in all his ways…not a God of the living but a God who is not God. The Devil wins with humanity made the devils pawns to prove God is unjust and contradictory.

This may sound odd to you, but praise God for not annihilating the Devil and his angels when they fell into sin because it is God who will win! He reneges on no gift of life he gives, so who has the real power?

It simply doesn't make sense to me when you talk this way. It sounds like gibberish. You are sounding a lot more like a wishful thinker or propagandist to me, at best, than any reasonable individual, when you say such things. But oh, how I wish I were wrong and you or someone could make me see some sense in what you are saying.

If you will not listen to his own words on this matter recorded in the Gospel accounts - who will you listen too?

I wish I could convince you that I am listening. But none of what you are saying in this regard is making any sense whatsoever to me. If it did, I might be able to agree with it. But until it does, what am I to do other than pray that my eyes will be opened or ask that you pray that they be opened or write you off as a typical propagandist or wishful thinker?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:57 am**

Thank you CuriousBob for clarifying your position more clearly! You do come across as a mix of Universalist Thought and Conditional Immortalitsit which is another name for Antinationalism and I was addressing you as that.

So I see that you come from an Armenian background and know about Calvinism as well. Now we can actually gain some more ground to help you understand. Thank you for being of a teachable spirit.

What I have been pointing out is the majesty of God as described within the bible. This majesty is discovered by examining the his attributes of his character and nature from the bible and from these — asking questions (to yourself and in prayer) on how each explains each other revealing something about God to you.

For example Deu 32:3 -4, “ For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God! 4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he…” ESV

Next ask, What does the word name convey? It expresses the character of the one so named (Do a Hebrew word study on this word). Therefore proclaiming the name of the Lord involves revealing his character and attributes.

Next, Moses does just that. His ways are perfect…all his ways are justice…

So you ask yourself — Lord how can you be perfect in al your ways and all your ways are justice if this or that in the bible does not appear to not make your ways look perfect, etc… (Pray — show me Lord)

Do word studies on the meaning of the words used to describe his nature and character — dig into the bible for your answers and not the ones in your head. I say this because the Lord's answers will astound you and very well shoot's down all human preconceived notions or ideas. This takes time and humility.

I wrestled with the Lord sometimes for 20 years on a single matter before I see his majesty on a matter explained others a few years, months. Once you catch on — you'll discover how interconnected each description is and then the Lord explains things faster through the bible in profound ways. So do not think this an easy task. It is not... It is life changing nevertheless and worth doing.

You will make errors but the Lord will correct you so be aware of this and remain humble when he shoots something down you thought about him as being true. This is where many stumble — they do not remain humble before the Lord.

Review what I wrote again and notice how one attribute of the Lord is connected with another. For example, God places eternity in the Heart, humanity was created in whose image and likeness, God is a God of the living, His justice is perfect. The Lord could indeed destroy humanity into non-existence but He did not as evidence from Genesis chapter 6 and fro Job 34:13-15. So you ask — why did you not, Lord?

The Lord will take you on a journey in the bible that explains that He placed eternity in the Heart, humanity was created in whose image and likeness, He is a God of the living, His justice is perfect. He is faithful to keep his word and perform them. He reneges on no gifts or callings, (promises), he is faithful to his word and will and changes not. Therefore, is discovered why he does not annihilate in non-being — it would cause him to deny himself in these areas.

He is that perfectly just way beyond what deem or think. For me, that is a reason to shout Glory to God in the Highest — the giver of life and keeper of his word! Amen and Amen! You begin to gain a glimpse of the Glory of God.

The mistake some people make is not allowing the Lord to lead them in this quest. They come in with preconceived notions and insert them into the bible. They think it best that sinners should be annihilated so they spend much time changing word means and explaining away the justice and majesty of the Lord — reaching the wrong conclusions to justify their opinions and not God's ways.

The way to search the scriptures is to see how they justify God — not humanity. It is in this is how to uncover answers. Other than a few tips, I cannot do much else than point you 'to doing' these searches in how to understand the Name of the Lord.

The Name of the Lord is a strong Tower! May he enlighten your understanding so that you too can see the majesty of the Lord!

Now I will be offline for a few days at a time the next two weeks so I maybe a bit slow in responding after today — Thursday.

Try tackling your questions as I pointed out. Also note there are only two options mentioned in the bible — not three (Matthew 25:46) … The rest I'll leave between you and the Lord. Be aware of using the bible to justify the thoughts, feelings, sentiments, wisdom of men. In your search you will begin to see how people do this…Avoid such wranglings and stay with the Lord - remain humble when he corrects you...and you will do well.

Listen to Paul's Prayer for us all...

Eph 1:16-23, "I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all..." ESV
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Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:41 pm**

Thanks for your patience with me, B.W.

It appears as if I still have some way to go in my search for truth in this matter.

I am hoping that before it is too late, I will have the peace of mind I have been longing for on this issue. I don't like the idea that God is cruel because it destroys the hope I have in the God who cares for me and mine.

I plan to do the Hebrew word study. But I have never done one before. How do you do one? Do you consult Strong's Concordance? Are there free online Hebrew word studies that you can refer me to?

Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:09 pm**

CuriousBob wrote:Thanks for your patience with me, B.W.

It appears as if I still have some way to go in my search for truth in this matter.

I am hoping that before it is too late, I will have the peace of mind I have been longing for on this issue. I don't like the idea that God is cruel because it destroys the hope I have in the God who cares for me and mine.

I plan to do the Hebrew word study. But I have never done one before. How do you do one? Do you consult Strong's Concordance? Are there free online Hebrew word studies that you can refer me to?

That you for patience with me too!

First off - God is not cruel - he is Just in ways you, right now, cannot fully comprehend. That is one of the human sentiments I warned you about. Look at, how is God Just and why...

Look at sin and what it does. No where in the bible does it say God tortures anyone in Hell - that is a human sentiment as well and misconception. For a balanced book on the subject, buy - Hell Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents Eternal Punishment -- by Christopher W. Morgan, Jr., R. Albert Mohler, Douglas J. Moo, J. I. Packer, Robert Yarbrough This book will answer a lot of your questions.

Hell Under Fire by Moos, etc, and several other authors. Look it up on AmazonLHell under Fire

I kept asking - realize the depths of sin and what it is. Sin for an eternal being is also eternal. God will not renege on who he is and what he says as well as gives. A place of containment is made to contain forever - whatever a person sows they will reap unless they come to Christ in this mortal life which is where change can occur before eternity is entered into.

It is in fact, an act of God's mercy and love that there is a hell and not annihilation. That sounds strange right now but when you begin you study you'll see why I say this. Love lets one come into there own... The rest will come to you in due time and read the above book for more info as well.

As for Hebrew word study — start with the Strongs Concordance numbering system and others that use it. Theological Word Book of the Old Testament is good as well as works by Zodhiates — others reading this will help you as well.

God bless...
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Posted: **Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:58 pm**

Do word studies on the meaning of the words used to describe his nature and character — dig into the bible for your answers and not the ones in your head. I say this because the Lord's answers will astound you and very well shoot's down all human preconceived notions or ideas. This takes time and humility.

I wrestled with the Lord sometimes for 20 years on a single matter before I see his majesty on a matter explained others a few years, months. Once you catch on — you'll discover how interconnected each description is and then the Lord explains things faster through the bible in profound ways. So do not think this an easy task. It is not... It is life changing nevertheless and worth doing.

You will make errors but the Lord will correct you so be aware of this and remain humble when he shoots something down you thought about him as being true. This is where many stumble — they do not remain humble before the Lord.

Review what I wrote again and notice how one attribute of the Lord is connected with another. For example, God places eternity in the Heart, humanity was created in whose image and likeness, God is a God of the living, His justice is perfect. The Lord could indeed destroy humanity into non-existence but He did not as evidence from Genesis chapter 6 and fro Job 34:13-15. So you ask — why did you not, Lord?

The Lord will take you on a journey in the bible that explains that He placed eternity in the Heart, humanity was created in whose image and likeness, He is a God of the living, His justice is perfect. He is faithful to keep his word and perform them. He reneges on no gifts or callings, (promises), he is faithful to his word and will and changes not. Therefore, is discovered why he does not annihilate in non-being — it would cause him to deny himself in these areas.

He is that perfectly just way beyond what deem or think. For me, that is a reason to shout Glory to God in the Highest — the giver of life and keeper of his word! Amen and Amen! You begin to gain a glimpse of the Glory of God.

The mistake some people make is not allowing the Lord to lead them in this quest. They come in with preconceived notions and insert them into the bible. They think it best that sinners should be annihilated so they spend much time changing word means and explaining away the justice and majesty of the Lord — reaching the wrong conclusions to justify their opinions and not God's ways.

The way to search the scriptures is to see how they justify God — not humanity. It is in this is how to uncover answers. Other than a few tips, I cannot do much else than point you 'to doing' these searches in how to understand the Name of the Lord.

The Name of the Lord is a strong Tower! May he enlighten your understanding so that you too can see the majesty of the Lord!

But, the question remains: Are the answers that you or I receive from those word studies reasonable? Besides, I doubt very much that I have 20 years to find out the answers, rather solutions, to the problems that I have raised in this thread. Furthermore, what you are saying is not discussion material. It does nothing at all to resolve the problems that I face when I discover God's sanctioning of eternal torment in a place that He has designated for a significant number of His creatures. Nor does it do anything to confirm my conclusions.

It appears to me as if the arguments you are using to prove that my reasoning is faulty are of the same character as those arguments that can be used to prove anything and everything under the sun. It would seem to me that any argument that can be used to answer everything can actually answer nothing in any meaningful discussion.

You say, the Lord's answers will astound me and that He explains things faster through the Bible. But, that is not discussion material. You can say that and I will never know whether or not you are telling the truth until I have spent 20 years doing what you suggest you have done and that I must do.

If He explained it to you in a way that convinced you that His explanation was reasonable, then why can't you explain it to me in the same way? After all, doesn't the God of the Bible prefer to teach men about Himself through other men like you?

First off - God is not cruel - he is Just in ways you, right now, cannot fully comprehend.

I wish I could see how that is so right now. Many things in the Bible assure me that He is. But a significant number of other things in the Bible seem to create doubts in my mind about that. Also, it seems quite obvious that you are unable to give me some examples of those ways that you are referring to. So, naturally, I feel obligated to question or doubt what you are saying about it.

No where in the bible does it say God tortures anyone in Hell

But it does tell us and in the clearest of terms that God prepared a place for the devil and his angels and that the same place is where the smoke of the torment of those who are not saved ascends up into the heavens for ever and ever. And if God is not the one who is doing the torturing then it woould seem to me that there is no way to avoid the conclusion that He at least santions it.

It is in fact, an act of God's mercy and love that there is a hell and not annihilation.

I sure would like to see how this can be true. Anyone can be dogmatic like you appear to be. But dogma is not open for any meaningful discussion because it is not an argument. Rather it is a statement of fact. And it would seem to me that the only proof you have for life being a gift is a dogmatic assertion that it is. I think this is precisely why I am gaining very little if any ground at all with you on this subject.

As for Hebrew word study — start with the Strongs Concordance numbering system and others that use it. Theological Word Book of the Old Testament is good as well as works by Zodhiates — others reading this will help you as well.

Unfortunately I am not in a financial position to afford this. Can you quote these works to me in answer to my questions or can you refer me to someone who can?

Posted: **Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:27 am**

Unfortunately I am not in a financial position to afford this. Can you quote these works to me in answer to my questions or can you refer me to someone who can?

There are many free resources on the internet. http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm

Need more? Try a basic google search.

Posted: **Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:50 am**

Thanks Jlay,

I'll try that.

I have West's 4 volume New Testament Greek Word Studies. Unfortunately, though, I have no word studies for the Hebrew Old Testament.

However, after thinking about it some more, I can't see how word studies to help me to see the Character of God are going to help me to resolve the problems in logic that I have whenever I am confronted with things in the Bible that seem to flatly contradict one another on the issues that have been raised under the topic that I have chosen for this thread.

I have already looked up name in my Strong's Concordance and, so far, there is nothing in it that leads me to believe that I should think of it differently when applied to God than when applied to anyone else in the Bible. So, I am beginning to wonder what good it will do me to pursue this course of action for any longer than a few hours. If I could immediately discover something about word studies that would really inspire me to pursue them, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to delve into them. But, so far, they are not proving to be very helpful in answering any of the concerns I have raised in this thread. I believe I need some more information from you and B.W. to help me to see how such a task will prove to reward me with the answers I so badly need right now.

So far, it seems that the more I attempt to find refutations to my conviction that the God of the Bible is not consistant with Himself in the areas that this thread is touching upon the more entrenched in that conviction I become, especially when I come across biblical apologists who quickly resort to dogma when it becomes clear that logical arguments are not in their favor. Do I like this? Certainly not! It appears as if I am going to have to settle for less than I had hoped. I love the God of the Bible. But He is not proving Himself to be user friendly (for lack of a better term) in the areas that this thread is touching upon. I still see know way that He could be consistant in both love and justice when I consider everything that the Bible says with reference to Him. How I wish you, Jlay, B.W., or someone else could help me to see Him in a better light (using logical arguments) or how I wish I could have the confidence in Him that you consistently express.

As it stands, I still think that I would have to be like a house divided against itself to maintain the position that the biblical God is entirely consistent with Himself and that reality (more accurately, actuality) is entirely consistent with His character. If someone could give me irresistable logical arguments to prove that He is, then I think I would have an overwhelming desire to preach the gospel to everyone I come in contact with. But, so far, you and B.W. have not been presenting anything that even resembles a logical argument to me, much less an irresistable one. Instead, your best line of defense against the logic behind my main contention in this thread appears to be dogma or rebuke, certainly not logic and certainly not irresistable logic.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:16 am**

CuriousBob wrote:....As it stands, I still think that I would have to be like a house divided against itself to maintain the position that the biblical God is entirely consistent with Himself and that reality (more accurately, actuality) is entirely consistent with His character. If someone could give me irresistable logical arguments to prove that He is, then I think I would have an overwhelming desire to preach the gospel to everyone I come in contact with. But, so far, you and B.W. have not been presenting anything that even resembles a logical argument to me, much less an irresistable one. Instead, your best line of defense against the logic behind my main contention in this thread appears to be dogma or rebuke, certainly not logic and certainly not irresistable logic.

Irresistable logic? Only irresistable if it agrees with man's wisdom but the bible says otherwise:

1 Co 3:18-20, "Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," 20 and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile." ESV

Again in 1 Co 1:19-30 concerning the irresistable logic you seek:

1 Co 1:19-31, "For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart." 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

"21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

"25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.

"27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." ESV

Commentary JFB on 1 Co 1:21

after that — rather, “whereas.”

in the wisdom of God — in the wise arrangement of God.

world by wisdom — rather, “by its wisdom,” or “its philosophy” (Joh_1:10; Rom_1:28).
knew not God — whatever other knowledge it attained (Act_17:23, Act_17:27). The deistic theory that man can by the light of nature discover his duty to God, is disproved by the fact that man has never discovered it without revelation. All the stars and moon cannot make it day; that is the prerogative of the sun. Nor can nature's highest gifts make the moral day arise; that is the office of Christ. Even the Jew missed this knowledge, in so far as he followed after mere carnal world wisdom.

Commentary from Clark - on 1 Co 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God - Dr. Lightfoot observes, “That σοφια του Θεου, the wisdom of God, is not to be understood of that wisdom which had God for its author, but that wisdom which had God for its object.

There was, among the heathen, σοφια της φυσεως, wisdom about natural things, that is, philosophy; and σοφια του Θεου, wisdom about God; that is, divinity. But the world in its divinity could not, by wisdom, know God.”

The plain meaning of this verse is, that the wise men of the world, especially the Greek philosophers, who possessed every advantage that human nature could have, independently of a Divine revelation, and who had cultivated their minds to the uttermost, could never, by their learning, wisdom, and industry, find out God; nor had the most refined philosophers among them just and correct views of the Divine nature, nor of that in which human happiness consists.

The work of Lucretius, De Natura Rerum, and the work of Cicero, De Natura Deorum, are incontestable proofs of this. Even the writings of Plato and Aristotle have contributed little to remove the veil which clouded the understanding of men. No wisdom but that which came from God could ever penetrate and illuminate the human mind.

Irresistable logic?? No - by Revelation instead! as it is written...

1 Co 2:11-16, "...For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

"12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

"14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." ESV

That is why I ask if you are truly born again because you seem to rely solely on irresistable logic from men and not the Lord. Who God is - is what answers your questions. His nature and character explains the answers. You receive this not but now do your own research - take your time and may the Lord of Glory open your eyes as Paul Prayed...

Eph 1:16-17, "I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints..." ESV

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Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:40 pm**

The irristable logic that I was referring to is the kind that Stephen expressed before Saul and those who were attempting to debate with him.

Perhaps http://www.preparingforeternity.com/sr/sr36.htm explains it better.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:32 am**

CuriousBob wrote:The irristable logic that I was referring to is the kind that Stephen expressed before Saul and those who were attempting to debate with him.

Perhaps http://www.preparingforeternity.com/sr/sr36.htm explains it better.

Thanks, that links helps...

Such Irresistible logic comes by Revelation — it is what God reveals. Not all will accept it or hear it. Irresistible logic confronts one with a choice to either irresistibly accept or irresistibly reject the matter revealed. In either case, it proves irresistible.

Read the book of Acts again concerning Stephen. Who irresistibly accepted the message and who irresistibly rejected it?
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PS -- I see from your link that you maybe SA and read Ellen G. White's stuff? is that correct?

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:27 pm**

I see from your link that you maybe SA and read Ellen G. White's stuff? is that correct?

No! and No again! I just did a hurried google search and came accross the article at the link I gave you. After a quick glance, I thought it would be suitable for my purpose. Until you mentioned it in this context, I wasn't aware that there might be a connection between it, SA, and Ellen G. White. I still don't think it would matter though, because I think it still does justice to my way of thinking in that his human enemies could not resist the human logic that stephen used to refute them (the same human logic that relied upon the same human standards of irresistable logic that both Stephen and his enemies relied upon to support or refute any given position involving human logic, any logic, or anything that involves logic and the common rules that all fairminded humans appeal to in their disputes on every subject that requires logic).

Evidence for God from Science

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