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Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:50 am
by jlay
Jac3510 wrote:1. I am not physically capable of caring less about Calvinism or Arminianism, since I am neither and thoroughly disagree with both. That was exactly my point. you are not limited to accept those two options, simply because I confined my question to them.
2. I am NOT saying "that salvation is not just available to those who will trust in Christ, but is already done whether they beleive it or not." That is the furthest thing from what I am saying. That would make the very mistake I am trying to correct. The ATONEMENT (what happened on the cross) is NOT the same thing as salvation. They are not related beyond the fact that the former was a thing God had to do so that He could accomplish the latter. I really don't see the point in distinguishing these, although I assume you do have a point in doing so. Would salvation not be partaking in the WORK of the cross?
3. As for this:
And that having faith in Christ doesn't apply this to our lives, but keeps our name in the book of life. That faith in Christ appropriates eternal life, not the forgiveness of sin. So all people are saved but can go to hell?
I am NOT saying that anyone is saved and can go to hell. See my statement on number two. I am saying that people can have their sins atoned for and still go to Hell. Sure, I'm just not sure I have digested with how you are saying it.In fact, I am saying that EVERYONE who goes to Hell has had their sins atoned for, because EVERYONE'S sins have been atoned for. (If everyone's sin are atoned for, and they are blameless before God, then why would they be condemned?) I am saying that the moment you sin in this life, you die spiritually. If you die in that state of spiritual death, then your name is removed from the book of life and will suffer a second death at the GWTJ. Sins are either atoned for or they are not. I am saying that if you place your faith in Christ, then you receive eternal LIFE, and thus are born again, and thus will NEVER die (John 3:16; 5:24; 11:24-27).

4. So, again, I ask my question--it's actually two:

a. For whom was the atoning sacrifice of Christ sufficient? Allb. For whom was the atoning sacrifice of Christ effective? Obviously All who will trust in Him. Because those who do not believe are condemned already.

I say "all" to both. Arminians and Calvinists say "the elect" (however they define that word) for the second. You?

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3: 21-26)

Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:49 pm
by B. W.
The Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) has a nice translation of Romans 6:1-2,

"So then, are we to say, "Let's keep on sinning, so that there can be more grace"? Heaven forbid! How can we, who have died to sin, still live in it?"

It hard to imagine a Lord who resides within that will not set His residence aright…

John 14:17, “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.” ESV

John 16:14, “He will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and announce it to you.” CJB


Col 1:27, 28, 29, "To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." ESV

Wow - hope of Glory - maturity in Christ - sounds like housecleaning to me...

Matthew 24:48, 49, 50, 51: "But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is taking his time'; 49 and he starts beating up his fellow servants and spends his time eating and drinking with drunkards; 50 then his master will come on a day the servant does not expect, at a time he doesn't know; 51 and he will cut him in two and put him with the hypocrites, where people will wail and grind their teeth!" ESV
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Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:52 pm
by Jac3510
I really don't see the point in distinguishing these, although I assume you do have a point in doing so. Would salvation not be partaking in the WORK of the cross?
No, salvation is no partaking in the work of the Cross. That's the point I am trying to make. In my cancer analogy, the Cross is like the surgery. It removes the sin problem, but the fact that we are still dead is a continuing issue--THAT is the one that needs to be resolved.

Salvation is partaking in the life of Christ, not suffering with Him in His death. Suffering with Him in His death is something we do on a daily basis as we die to self. That is something we do in sanctification. But, AGAIN, no, salvation is not partaking in the work of the Cross.
(If everyone's sin are atoned for, and they are blameless before God, then why would they be condemned?)
Because they are spiritually dead.
Sins are either atoned for or they are not.
Correct, and all sins are atoned for, so no one is condemned for their sin. Their are condemned for the state of deadness.
Obviously All who will trust in Him. Because those who do not believe are condemned already.
See, I disagree. The Cross is not merely effectual for all who trust in Him. In is effectual for all--both all who believe and all who do not believe. You hold to unlimited atonement. That's fine--its the popular position today. I just don't believe in it. I hold to universal atonement.

Let me ask you this: what sends a person to Hell? To clarify, I know that we both agree that not trusting in Jesus saves you is what sends you to Hell. What I mean is, in light of that, what is it about rejecting Jesus that sends you to Hell? Why, if a person rejects Jesus, do they go to Hell?

Finally, regarding Rom 3, note that I've never said that we don't have to believe to be saved. In fact, I've strongly said over and over that all we can do to be saved is believed, and that salvation comes through belief. I agree with that 100%. Faith is the channel by which we are saved. What I AM saying is that salvation and atonement are not the same thing. We receive eternal life through faith. We do NOT receive atonement through faith. All sins are atoned for. NOT all people have everlasting life. When Paul says that righteousness comes through faith, he says EXACTLY what he means. RIGHTEOUSNESS comes through faith--not the atonement for sin. Atonement is not the same thing as righteousness.

Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:59 pm
by jlay
Without the work of the cross their could be no salvation. I don't see how anyone can seperate salvation from the work of the cross.
I know that we both agree that not trusting in Jesus saves you is what sends you to Hell
No, we don't agree on that. People who refuse to trust in Jesus.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev. 21:8

God is not sending people to hell for failing to hear about Jesus. Unbelief is mentioned, ignorance is not. And it is labeled with all other sins. If those sins are atoned for then why are they punished for them?

Paul does not make this distinction. He makes clear the reality of sin, the work of the law, and justification in the same discourse.
Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Are they under sin or not? Either the cross has been applied to all or it has not. They are justified from their sin, when they trust.

21-23 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:27 pm
by B. W.
For those following please see links below for further information on what is being discussed is causing any confusion to you as we seem to be straying this way:

Calvinism States: That the aim of Christ atonement was to redeem the elect which is identified as the doctrine of Limited Atonement

Arminianism States: That the design of Christ atonement was to make all men savable which is defined as the doctrine of Universal Atonement

Question for clarification: Jac, You stated in a prior post that you disagree with both Calvinism and Arminianism but later state that you hold to the Arminianism idea of Universal Atonement what do you mean?

jlay stated this in prior post …."There is nothing special about a Christian. Christ died for their sins as well as the unbeliever. The unbeliever has the same free gift of salvation offered to them. It is a matter of a appropriation"

So to put it simply so the rest of us following, can we reign in the subject instead of straying into Calvinism and Arminianism?

…Not sure if Limited Atonement is the real issue here — But rather identification — how do you tell a Christian from a non-believer…Is there a distinguishing mark or not?

One last reference link to help readers look into Appropriation from Bible NET
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Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:53 pm
by Jac3510
jlay wrote:Without the work of the cross their could be no salvation. I don't see how anyone can seperate salvation from the work of the cross.
Where did I say that there could be salvation without the work of the Cross? Let's not read into my words, J. Can you quote me where I said that? That is a serious question. Please don't ignore it.
No, we don't agree on that. People who refuse to trust in Jesus.
So you don't believe John 3:18? Of course you do. People who put their faith in Jesus are saved. People who don't are condemned.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev. 21:8

God is not sending people to hell for failing to hear about Jesus. Unbelief is mentioned, ignorance is not. And it is labeled with all other sins. If those sins are atoned for then why are they punished for them?
Does the text say they go to Hell because they are cowardly, unbelieving, vile, murders, etc.? Are you, J, not all of those things? You will (hopefully) point out that while you may be those things in the flesh, God sees you as the righteousness of Christ.

It is, then, your position by which you are saved--the fact that you are in Christ, and being in Christ, you have life. Likewise, if you are in Adam, you are dead, and being in Adam, you are condemned, since you are not found in the book of life. Again, keep all this in context. Rev. 21:8 may say those particular people are in Hell, but in already had given the basis of their condemnation: not being found in the book of life.
Paul does not make this distinction. He makes clear the reality of sin, the work of the law, and justification in the same discourse.
Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Are they under sin or not? Either the cross has been applied to all or it has not. They are justified from their sin, when they trust.
I think you may have misunderstood Paul's theology of imputation . . . chapters 1-3 show that all people are sinners, the necessary result being that all people have died (presently: all people are dead, apart from Christ). He makes that point very clearly in Rom. 5. So first he shows that all Gentiles are "under sin." Then he shows that all Jews are "under sin," and that keeping the Law does not remove them from being "under sin." He goes on in ch. 4 to say that where this is no law (specifically talking about the Mosaic Law) there is no imputation of sin; thus Paul distinguishes between the real and judicial effects of sin. The real effect is death (all who sin die physical and spiritual). The judicial effect is legal guilt. The latter was taken care of by Christ at the Cross. In fact, we see that Paul DOES make the distinction that I am talking about. Observe:
  • 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. (Rom 5:12-14)
First off, I can explain in more detail later, but the translation "because all sinned" is inappropriate. It should simply be rendered "for all sin" or "for all have sinned." Verses 13 and 14 explain that clause. Going back to 4:15, Paul notes that before the Law, there was sin, even though sin is not imputed without the Law. Why, then, do men die? He takes up that question in 14. EVEN THOUGH sin was not imputed (judicial guilt), men STILL died. Why? Because all sin, and sin brings for death (the real effect). Rom 3:25 reminds us the reason that the judicial guilt was not imputed--Christ paid it all. The Law, then, was a shadow of the Cross, and any efficacy it had was only because it pointed to the Cross.

Now, we may need to go deeper into this, but in any case, I am glad you brought it up, because it does show that Paul is making the same distinction. His concern is with death, which is the result of sin--not with sin itself (as it relates to justification; sin is any issue we must deal with in sanctification, but he takes that up in Rom 6-8)
21-23 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Not sure why you are quoting this specifically . . . he is wrapping up his discussion on Jews. They, too, are condemned, even though they have the Law, for the Law cannot bring life. It only brings death, because the Law brings the imputation of sin. But apart from the Law, those who have faith are justified freely by God--all those who believe.

Nice to point out AGAIN that the ONLY thing necessary for salvation is mere belief. Not repentance. Not baptism. Not continued faith. Just belief.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
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Have you ever tracked the pronoun usage in Gal? You should know that first person pronouns refer to Jews. Second person pronouns refer to the Galatians. Third person pronouns refer to the Judiaziers. Here, Paul is saying that the Jews (of which he was a member)--as a people--were kept "in custody." I would also encourage you to look at the phrase "under." It is never used in a good way in Galatians. To be "under the law" was bad. We can walk through that in some detail later, but here's a few thoughts for you:

1. Paul uses several word pictures to describe the Law, including: a jailor, a house manager, and a pedagogue.
2. Look at Gal 3:24. Most of your translations say something like the law came "to lead us to Christ." The word for "to lead us to" is eis, which can be translated directionally (as in most translations) or temporally ("until"). Look at the surrounding context and remember that the "us" refers to the Jewish people. It should be translated temporally. The law was the Jews' pedagogue until Christ came. Then it was no more.

The point to all this? No one is under the law any longer. Faith has brought maturity to Israel and to the Church. We are saved, and more importantly sanctified, by mere faith (see Gal 3:1). Most people misunderstand Galatians. They think it is a treaty on justification by faith alone. It isn't. It is about sanctification by faith alone.

AGAIN, we see Paul's interest is in mere faith alone, and, in fact, proves in this book that people can fall away from the faith and still be saved. That is, they can come to believe a false Gospel and still be going to heaven. Now, false is false. There are no degrees of falseness. So if a genuine believer can fall to a false Gospel, then it doesn't matter if he just comes to accept a works based salvation or if he comes to reject the entire notion of salvation and become an atheist. Again, false is false.

So thanks for the supportive verses. :)

Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:43 am
by jlay
People who put their faith in Jesus are saved. People who don't are condemned.
Of course. I am not saying they aren't.
Does the text say they go to Hell because they are cowardly, unbelieving, vile, murders, etc.? Are you, J, not all of those things? You will (hopefully) point out that while you may be those things in the flesh, God sees you as the righteousness of Christ.
It says that pretty clear. THEIR PLACE. Again, of course I am. And of course He does. Because through faith we have been justified. It is apparent that those who have not trusted Christ will be judged in the flesh. Those who have faith will not be judged as such.

Again it gets back to the parachute analogy. If you jump without a parachute (Christ) you will be judged by gravity and condemned. The parachute (Jesus) saves you. Those who have put on Christ are covered. Rom. 5:17 "For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."
This is stating that through Christ's obedience to death on the cross many will be made righteous.

Through sin we become spiritually dead, no? Through Christ we are made spiritually alive, yes? Even though our physical bodies will still die. Those who are not in the lambs book are what? spiritually dead. Those who are in the book are spiritually alive. When were they saved from spiritual death? When they placed their faith IN HIM.
If spiritual death is the result of sin, then just what is being appropriated at salvation. Freedom from spiritual death which resulted from our own sin, which Jesus died atone for.

Re: Pimping Jesus: consumerism and the red-light gospel

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:15 am
by Jac3510
Through sin we become spiritually dead, no? Through Christ we are made spiritually alive, yes? Even though our physical bodies will still die. Those who are not in the lambs book are what? spiritually dead. Those who are in the book are spiritually alive. When were they saved from spiritual death? When they placed their faith IN HIM.
If spiritual death is the result of sin, then just what is being appropriated at salvation. Freedom from spiritual death which resulted from our own sin, which Jesus died atone for.
J, I could not have said it any better! That is the point. Sin brings death. Spiritual death. If you die spiritually dead, you are condemned for all eternity. It is not the sin that condemns you. It is the DEATH that condemns you. To use your parachute analogy, it isn't gravity that kills you. It is the sudden stop! If gravity is the sin, then you see it isn't sin that condemns you. It is the result of sin for which you are condemned.

If we want to push your parachute analogy even further, we could say this. All human beings have been pushed out of a plane. Everyone is falling to their death. As they are falling, EVERYONE is given a parachute. They are not merely offered a parachute. They are GIVEN a parachute. All they have to do is open it to be saved. Likewise, EVERYONE'S sins have been atoned for, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still dead.

So what does faith appropriate? Spiritual life. The new birth. Justification. It does not appropriate the atonement. That has already happened.