Flaws with Dispensational Theology

[Gman]

Next question is do we evangelize these Jews to their savior or is that something Christ is going to do when he comes through the clouds? Where is the line drawn? Do we support them and help them build their temple even though we know that the anti-Christ is going to come and defile it?

I don't have any real answers to these questions...

Sorry.

[puritan lad]

We evangelize Jews just like we evangelize everyone else, with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the only way anyone may be saved, Jew or Gentile, past present, or future.

The fact that an experienced and intelligent Christian like GMan has to even ask such a question exhibits my main beef with Dispensationalism.

[Gman]

We evangelize Jews just like we evangelize everyone else, with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the only way anyone may be saved, Jew or Gentile, past present, or future.

The fact that an experienced and intelligent Christian like GMan has to even ask such a question exhibits my main beef with Dispensationalism.

Like we've got all the other "isms" down? What about the Trinity? And still today we fight over that.. Nicene creed in the 3rd century. Some 300 years to understand the Trinity folks, and we still can't get everyone to agree upon it..

Be flexible.. Ask questions.. Grow.

[puritan lad]

We evangelize Jews just like we evangelize everyone else, with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the only way anyone may be saved, Jew or Gentile, past present, or future.

The fact that an experienced and intelligent Christian like GMan has to even ask such a question exhibits my main beef with Dispensationalism.

Like we've got all the other "isms" down? What about the Trinity? And still today we fight over that.. Nicene creed in the 3rd century. Some 300 years to understand the Trinity folks, and we still can't get everyone to agree upon it..

Christians agree upon the Trinity. Those who deny the Trinity are not Christians

Be flexible.. Ask questions.. Grow.

I'm all for learning and growing, but the gospel is one area that I am no flexible.

[Gman]

Christians agree upon the Trinity. Those who deny the Trinity are not Christians

Well I can't speak for everybody but it took me about 7 years to figure it out.. At first it took me awhile to figure it out.. It took 300 years before it became a creed. Maybe for you everything is instantaneous.. I don't know.

I'm all for learning and growing, but the gospel is one area that I am no flexible.

It depends on what you mean by the gospel.. The message of the gospel that Christ died for us all, or how it is all going to pan out? If you know how it is going to pan out, or when Christ comes back you would be the first person I know who has all the answers to that.

[puritan lad]

Christians agree upon the Trinity. Those who deny the Trinity are not Christians

Well I can't speak for everybody but it took me about 7 years to figure it out.. At first it took me awhile to figure it out.. It took 300 years before it became a creed. Maybe for you everything is instantaneous.. I don't know.

No one can totally figure out the Trinity, but that's not the same are disagreeing over it or arguing over it. For the Christian, the Doctrine of th Trinity is the only orthodox postion. There is really nothing to argue over.

I'm all for learning and growing, but the gospel is one area that I am no flexible.

It depends on what you mean by the gospel.. The message of the gospel that Christ died for us all, or how it is all going to pan out? If you know how it is going to pan out, or when Christ comes back you would be the first person I know who has all the answers to that.

But this was a response to your question "do we evangelize these Jews to their savior or is that something Christ is going to do when he comes through the clouds? If we are all one in Christ Jesus, the answer should be obvious. Christ's First Advent was to redeem His people. His Second Advent is to judge them. DNA or Nationality is irrelevant, and yet that is what Dispensationalism focuses on.

[Byblos]

Also, what happens to the Jews who die before their nation is restored.

You mean the OT Jews or the Jews in the NT?

I mean the Jews of the NT and of today.

Yes, I'm still confused on this too.. But here would be my guess. They would be saved just like they were in the OT times.

And that would make Christ's work on the cross superfluous.

I think we also have to remember that many of the OT folks didn't even have a Bible (or road map) to salvation like we do today. In that regards we are fortunate. Was Adam and Eve saved?? I believe they were, and they didn't even own a Bible. They understood the concepts..

We didn't even have the complete Bible until the 3rd century. Are we to believe that salvation couldn't occur until after that?

You're determined to open a can of worms aren't you?
I would certainly agree that oral Tradition is just as effective.

Yes, I know Christ has come and the OT laws are mostly done away with, true.. But in Romans 11:5-6 we find a stubbornness/blindness among the Jews for their savior. Is God waiting for them to get it?? And if they don't get it before they die or Christ comes will God honor (save) them any way because of a promise? Again, I'm not God, but I might say here possibly. But I can't say for certain, so don't hold me against it..

The NT sets some very clear boundaries for salvation, belief through faith is first and foremost without which there can be no salvation. If the Jews of today don't believe (the Gospel) they have no hope for salvation. In addition, the great commission was also very clear that the Gospel is to be preached to ALL nations. No exception for Israel in there.

[zoegirl]

I do not doubt the uniqueness of the Jewish people. I love the foundation of Christianity upon Judaism (I mean that to simply refer to the OT and NT)....it is beautiful, it is rich, and it is stunning to see the tapestry of God's grace given to throughout the OT. How favored they were/are...and how lovely that the grace was then shown to us...

I think there has been an unfortunate idea created in these posts that somehow imply that Dispensationalism is the one that loves the Jewish nation. But if there is one thing that covenant theology (or if we want to get rid of labels, the OT and NT) shows is the rich heritage we have receive on behalf of them and the grace shown by God throughout history to them. They are unique.

There is a famous quote from Corrie Ten Boom's father, a Dutch Calvinist "I pity the poor Germans, Corrie. They have touched the apple of God's eye."

If there is a unique place in heaven, then it certainly would not come as a surprise, especially considering their place in the foundation of the "olive tree" to which we were grafted. But scripture is firm is several things

1) the way to salvation: Christ's sacrifice...His is the only atoning sacriifce needed and any other sacrifice is pitiful and pathetic next to Him. To add any other sacrifice to the equation cheapens it's value...whether or not any sacrifice will be done in the future they will be meaningless. Christ reconciles us to God, period.
2) the need for this salvation- God's covenant to Abraham does not negate the need for a savior. If anything it simply foreshadows the ultimate innocent lamb sacrificed. He provided the Lamb for sacrifice.

If God has a plan for them, it MUST include CHrist as the means to salvation, period. Whether or not this means a revival of some type, or a special revelation....that I don't know...but those two things scripture is pretty clear.

[Gman]

If God has a plan for them, it MUST include CHrist as the means to salvation, period. Whether or not this means a revival of some type, or a special revelation....that I don't know...but those two things scripture is pretty clear.

Yes.. Ultimately. May question earlier was when..

Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

[Gman]

But this was a response to your question "do we evangelize these Jews to their savior or is that something Christ is going to do when he comes through the clouds? If we are all one in Christ Jesus, the answer should be obvious. Christ's First Advent was to redeem His people. His Second Advent is to judge them. DNA or Nationality is irrelevant, and yet that is what Dispensationalism focuses on.

We all know that we evangelize.. Everybody. The problem is when we start labeling here.. I work with a lot of Jews.. Ok? Are we to tackle them in the streets with the message, and if they revolt, write them off?? Again, from what I'm seeing is part of that job could also be done by Christ himself when he comes back in he clouds, and then they say... "Oh, I get it now. Help me Lord!"

That's all... Ok? That we are not to get hung up on converting Jews before the coming and write them off as brothers..

I'm sensitive to this issue.. Ok?

[Gman]

And that would make Christ's work on the cross superfluous.

And what is Christ's work on the cross?

You're determined to open a can of worms aren't you?
I would certainly agree that oral Tradition is just as effective.

I think it's good to air it out every once in awhile.. They didn't have Christ in the OT times.. So how were they saved? Just asking John, nothing personal.

The NT sets some very clear boundaries for salvation, belief through faith is first and foremost without which there can be no salvation. If the Jews of today don't believe (the Gospel) they have no hope for salvation. In addition, the great commission was also very clear that the Gospel is to be preached to ALL nations. No exception for Israel in there.

Yes, Romans 9:30-32 explains the faith of the Jews.. However, they could change at Christ's appearing. Without our help...

Again, just a guess... Not trying to dodge the issue.

[Byblos]

And that would make Christ's work on the cross superfluous.

And what is Christ's work on the cross?

If Jews can be saved without believing in Christ then what was the purpose of his death and resurrection? That's the point I was trying to make.

You're determined to open a can of worms aren't you?
I would certainly agree that oral Tradition is just as effective.

I think it's good to air it out every once in awhile.. They didn't have Christ in the OT times.. So how were they saved? Just asking John, nothing personal.

Of course they had Christ in the OT, that's what PL's been trying to tell you.

The NT sets some very clear boundaries for salvation, belief through faith is first and foremost without which there can be no salvation. If the Jews of today don't believe (the Gospel) they have no hope for salvation. In addition, the great commission was also very clear that the Gospel is to be preached to ALL nations. No exception for Israel in there.

Yes, Romans 9:30-32 explains the faith of the Jews.. However, they could change at Christ's appearing. Without our help...

Again, just a guess... Not trying to dodge the issue.

I understand that. And that would apply to the Jews living at the time Christ comes. It still leaves out the multitude of Jews who died up to that point so where does that leave the state of Israel?

[Gman]

If Jews can be saved without believing in Christ then what was the purpose of his death and resurrection? That's the point I was trying to make.

Yes, we all agree on that..

Of course they had Christ in the OT, that's what PL's been trying to tell you.

They had God/Christ, but not exactly living the gospel back then, that came at Christ's death after the day of Pentecost..

I understand that. And that would apply to the Jews living at the time Christ comes. It still leaves out the multitude of Jews who died up to that point so where does that leave the state of Israel?

That is what we are trying to figure out...

[puritan lad]

But this was a response to your question "do we evangelize these Jews to their savior or is that something Christ is going to do when he comes through the clouds? If we are all one in Christ Jesus, the answer should be obvious. Christ's First Advent was to redeem His people. His Second Advent is to judge them. DNA or Nationality is irrelevant, and yet that is what Dispensationalism focuses on.

We all know that we evangelize.. Everybody. The problem is when we start labeling here.. I work with a lot of Jews.. Ok? Are we to tackle them in the streets with the message, and if they revolt, write them off?? Again, from what I'm seeing is part of that job could also be done by Christ himself when he comes back in he clouds, and then they say... "Oh, I get it now. Help me Lord!"

That's all... Ok? That we are not to get hung up on converting Jews before the coming and write them off as brothers..

I'm sensitive to this issue.. Ok?

I hate to grate against your sensibilities, but this is no small matter. I'm not sure where you get your evangelism techniques, but I've never "tackled anyone in the streets with the message". We evangelize Jews the same way we evangelize everyone else. But they cannot be considered our brothers in Christ until they are actually in Christ. Until then (assuming you are referring to the Jewish faith, as we still don't have a good definition of a CEJ), the faith that they practice is a false, talmudic heresy. To suggest that we "not to get hung up on converting Jews before the coming" grossly undermines what Christ did at his first coming. This is very important, and why eschatology matters, so read this next statement closely.

There will be no conversions of anyone at the Second Coming. It will be too late, as History will end. It is the First Advent that is redemptive. The Second Advent is for judgment, as history will end.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." (2 Peter 3:10)

Sorry GMan, but we will not agree to disagree on this. The stakes are far too high.

[Gman]

Sorry GMan, but we will not agree to disagree on this. The stakes are far too high.

Yes loud and clear PL... The current state of Israel is the work of satan or synagogue of satan..

Very clear. Nuke em...