Evidence for God from Science

EssentialSacrifice wrote:s

ocal:
Why? When the rest of his earthly life he spent all his time with sinners? It makes no sense.

Surely, how could any amount of earthly life he spent with sinners? equal to the relationship of sharing your body and blood, be as close as any mother and son, let alone God and His mother. ?

the Hypostatic union resided within Mary. That's both natures within.

You're trying to add something into Scripture that is not there. Surely if there were TWO virgin births they would be in the Old Testament as a prophecy of the Messiah, yet we have only one mentioned (Isaiah 7:14, with the closed mem).

Surely if there were TWO virgin births

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Surely if there were TWO virgin births

Twin virgin births, SoCal? Is that how Christians pulled a fast one? Twin Christs. One was crucified, and the other was in hiding until it was time for the fake resurrection.

Darn sneaky Christians!

When all is said and done, these conversations really go nowhere. Catholics and Protestants have different authorities.

Byblos wrote: It has to do with typology, Mary as the new Eve and the ark of the new covenant (Jesus).

Yes, I know of typology. She is not the new ark, or the new Eve. Even reading the article you sent me the author contradicts himself within in. Grace does not = sinless. I'd be open to unheated conversation on this. But is there a point? Are you open to being wrong and corrected? I am, have been and will continue to be.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:s

ocal:
Why? When the rest of his earthly life he spent all his time with sinners? It makes no sense.

Surely, how could any amount of earthly life he spent with sinners? equal to the relationship of sharing your body and blood, be as close as any mother and son, let alone God and His mother. ?

the Hypostatic union resided within Mary. That's both natures within.

Uh huh.. Have you forgotten our relationship with Him? 2 Corinthians 13:5, Romans 8:10, 2 Corinthians 4:6-7,Galatians 2:20 (I could go on) And let's not forget the Holy Spirit (do I need to post those ones?). I share my body with Him. It is His temple. Mary nurtured Jesus' physical body from conception to birth to adulthood (and probably beyond like all good mothers do). Who was sustaining Mary and knew her before she was created? Jesus. Who gave her grace? The Holy Spirit. Our YHWH is a jealous God and does not share His glory. Who is our Idol? Jesus. Never Mary, never any other character from the Bible. Everything cc dogma has induced about her takes glory from Him and it's a lie to propose otherwise, as it's not what has been produced in reality, or in theory (even if you might want to think it).

Mallz:
Grace does not = sinless

Romans 6:1-2 ... Romans 6:14-15 here are a couple of the bible verses that, i think, disagree with you my brother. Grace is the antithisis of sin, it is the one and only direct and immediate relief God brings us. The momentary grace we receive is possible to lose with sinful behavior Hebrews 10:26-29 but as long as we stay in grace we are or have protected ourselves with ( communion, repentence, baptism, etc .. ). Many graces from God and all are to be taken advantge of to further our relationship with Him in as graceful manner as possible.

Okay, re reading this thread and thinking things through.

I am happy to refer to, and think of, Mary as the Mother of God.
Some thoughts though.. was she really a virgin? I have always said Christ was borne of Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit but what di I really mean by that? Marys egg and what? Was Christ conceived thriugh egg and sperm or through some miracle?
Not sure if I see Mary as sinless but it doesnt matter to me, not really. If anything Mary being a sinner too makes sense to me.

I dont have a problem with Mary being as prominent as she is either, I see it as an additional way of growing closer to Christ. Christ is first, always.

Still researching and thinking about the saints, praying to them (and Mary), again, my thoughts and prayers are to Christ but I wouldnt discount the possibility of help.

There is so much to learn still, it may be a while before I follow a particular faith, if any. There are lots of little things that make me question. Some silly but all valid.
Masturbation, for example.
One way of viewing it is that its healthy, fun, and safe but itcould be seen as wrong, sinful. Masturbation is often involved in fantasy and that can be risky, and it takes the focus off God.

Thoughts?

Mallz:
Uh huh.. Have you forgotten our relationship with Him? 2 Corinthians 13:5, Romans 8:10, 2 Corinthians 4:6-7,Galatians 2:20 (I could go on) And let's not forget the Holy Spirit (do I need to post those ones?). I share my body with Him. It is His temple. Mary nurtured Jesus' physical body from conception to birth to adulthood (and probably beyond like all good mothers do). Who was sustaining Mary and knew her before she was created? Jesus. Who gave her grace? The Holy Spirit. Our YHWH is a jealous God and does not share His glory. Who is our Idol? Jesus. Never Mary, never any other character from the Bible. Everything cc dogma has induced about her takes glory from Him and it's a lie to propose otherwise, as it's not what has been produced in reality, or in theory (even if you might want to think it).

sorry bud, you've missed the point here. all i am saying is Mary birthed both the human and the Godly "man' at once, at the same time. This closeness cannot be compared to everyday life, ie: walking with sinners, and in that sense it does make sense, imo.

Who is our Idol? Jesus. Never Mary, never any other character from the Bible.

couldn't agree more ...

Everything cc dogma has induced about her takes glory from Him and it's a lie to propose otherwise

absolutely untrue, and if this is all the better they taught you in all your years, your Catholic education was a waste. This is the opposite of the teachings of Catholicism and any other interpretation is incorrect.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-mother-of-god

There is a difference between veneration of Mary and worship of Jesus. This was formalized in writing way back in 757 AD at the Seventh General Council:
Latria - adoration that is given to the Trinity alone; occurs 5 times in the Bible but always refers to God (Jn 16:2, Rm:9:4, 12:6, Heb 9:1,6)
Hyper-dulia - veneration to Mary (as the mother of God)
Dulia - honor paid to saints and angels; occurs 5 times in the Bible (Rm 8:15, 21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15)
There are plenty of Old Testament references that distinguish veneration from worship. "Then Moses went out to meet his father in law, and he bowed down and kissed him.." (Exo 18:7)...(also 1 Chron 29:20, 1 Sam 24:8)

Some evangelicals say "consecration" shows that Catholics worship Mary. The word "consecrate" means to entrust. I entrust myself to my closest friends but only one is my Savior.

http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/ ... to_her.php

RickD wrote:When all is said and done, these conversations really go nowhere. Catholics and Protestants have different authorities.

Provokes some interesting debbate though

All this is actually incredibly helpful to me x

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Mallz:
Grace does not = sinless

Romans 6:1-2 ... Romans 6:14-15 here are a couple of the bible verses that, i think, disagree with you my brother. Grace is the antithisis of sin, it is the one and only direct and immediate relief God brings us. The momentary grace we receive is possible to lose with sinful behavior Hebrews 10:26-29 but as long as we stay in grace we are or have protected ourselves with ( communion, repentence, baptism, etc .. ). Many graces from God and all are to be taken advantge of to further our relationship with Him in as graceful manner as possible.

Now go read Romans 7:19 where Paul makes thw admission that he practices (present tense) sin.

Romans 6-8 is the relationship a born-again Christian should have with their two natures. Ot does not say we are sinless, that contradicts Romans 3 and 1 John 1:8,10; plus the issues within the churches as Corinth, Galatia and elsewhere.

Remember Romans 14:23.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Mallz:
Grace does not = sinless

<a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Rom%206.1-2" data-reference="Rom 6.1-2" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Romans 6:1-2</a> ... <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Rom%206.14-15" data-reference="Rom 6.14-15" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Romans 6:14-15</a> here are a couple of the bible verses that, i think, disagree with you my brother. Grace is the antithisis of sin, it is the one and only direct and immediate relief God brings us. The momentary grace we receive is possible to lose with sinful behavior <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Heb%2010.26-29" data-reference="Heb 10.26-29" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Hebrews 10:26-29</a> but as long as we stay in grace we are or have protected ourselves with ( communion, repentence, baptism, etc .. ). Many graces from God and all are to be taken advantge of to further our relationship with Him in as graceful manner as possible.

I don't see those passages saying grace means sinless? My catechism says (yeah.. I have one) "Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life". Which looks right to me. We can't earn grace in any way, either (not saying you don't think we do). Mary was called to partake in the divine nature in a very special way. So special only one human gets it. But we are all called to partake in the divine nature. We are all different persons and so unique to Him in some way. And unique to each other. I agree if we abuse His grace we are in imminent danger to lose his hedge of protection. And if we willfully continue in sin (a hated habitual sin constantly repented of doesn't count) we grieve the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Grace. And.. well, we all know what that means :-S

SoCal:
Now go read Romans 7:19 where Paul makes thw admission that he practices (present tense) sin.

Romans 6-8 is the relationship a born-again Christian should have with their two natures. Ot does not say we are sinless, that contradicts Romans 3 and 1 John 1:8,10; plus the issues within the churches as Corinth, Galatia and elsewhere.

Remember Romans 14:23

i'm sorry man, we just seem to be talking past one another... i'm not sure how this last post responds to grace = sinless

Remember Romans 14:13
Let us cease, then, to lay down rules for one another, and make this rule for ourselves instead, not to trip up or entangle a brother’s conscience.

... and that goes for all of us :amen:

EssentialSacrifice wrote: sorry bud, you've missed the point here. all i am saying is Mary birthed both the human and the Godly "man' at once, at the same time. This closeness cannot be compared to everyday life, ie: walking with sinners, and in that sense it does make sense, imo.

I must have misunderstood what you were trying to put forward, then. Why say 'the humand and the Godly 'man' at once, at the same time'? Aren't you just saying she birthed Jesus? But we all know that. I think I'm still missing your point.

Who is our Idol? Jesus. Never Mary, never any other character from the Bible.

couldn't agree more ...

I know you do. And I know cc dogma does. Many, many catholics (from all generations, and a lot from older ones) take Mary past cc doctrine.

Everything cc dogma has induced about her takes glory from Him and it's a lie to propose otherwise

absolutely untrue, and if this is all the better they taught you in all your years, your Catholic education was a waste. This is the opposite of the teachings of Catholicism and any other interpretation is incorrect.

That is a conclusion from all the evidences. Harmonizing cc doctrine to the Bible, and how it is exercised by the ministry and then by lay people. I'm putting forward those are the blazing unintended results of so much unnecessary and extra-biblical [and obviously some I believe to be unbiblicle] dogma. I'd be willing to go into lengths to explain why, but perhaps that's better for another thread if there is even any mutual interest?

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

Yes, that's apparent. What does it matter? Sorry, I know I don't put 'all my guns forward'.

There is a difference between veneration of Mary and worship of Jesus. This was formalized in writing way back in 757 AD at the Seventh General Council:
Latria - adoration that is given to the Trinity alone; occurs 5 times in the Bible but always refers to God (Jn 16:2, Rm:9:4, 12:6, Heb 9:1,6)
Hyper-dulia - veneration to Mary (as the mother of God)
Dulia - honor paid to saints and angels; occurs 5 times in the Bible (Rm 8:15, 21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15)
There are plenty of Old Testament references that distinguish veneration from worship. "Then Moses went out to meet his father in law, and he bowed down and kissed him.." (Exo 18:7)...(also 1 Chron 29:20, 1 Sam 24:8)

I don't know why we should venerate anyone, including Mary. It's unfounded to me, and extra-biblical.

Some evangelicals say "consecration" shows that Catholics worship Mary. The word "consecrate" means to entrust. I entrust myself to my closest friends but only one is my Savior.
http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/ ... to_her.php

I'm not a silly one saying catholics worship Mary. My lovely mother is a devote Roman Catholic (and we've had extensive talks). And I know catholics don't pray to saints like one says a pray to God. But both catholic practices are from men, not Him. And if that is the case, it detracts from His narrow path. Why do it? Stumbling blocks are being put up, barriers between our way to Him and His way to Him. It's illogical. That's where I'm coming from.

We are all on at the same time! :p You guys think it's weird we have included talking points we aren't seeing as others are posting before we respond? Just something entertaining I saw.