Evidence for God from Science

DannyM wrote:Brother, I'm asking a genuine question. I just want Scripture relating to gentile salvation. I don’t see it. Now you’re both more biblically acute than me, so I am in some sense going out on a limb. So please can you show me where our salvation is shown to be contingent on repentance.

I'm not sure 'salvation is contingent on repentance' is even the right term. I think a basic premise we can all agree on is that salvation is an unmerited, free gift from God so let that be our launching pad. The question then becomes what role does repentance play? If you ask me (a Catholic that is) then I would say since salvation is not one time event but a process, repentance (and by extension baptism and the Eucharist) plays a huge role in one's walk with God. And again, let's not get into the whole issue of OSAS and all that other happy stuff but the way I see it repentance goes hand in hand with fellowship if you wish. But I think what Jlay is driving at is that the absence of repentance is as much an indicator of one's status as its presence but I will let him answer. Suffice it to say that the scriptures him and I quoted are a clear indication of the role repentance plays. And what do you mean by 'gentile salvation'? Is there one for gentiles and another for Jews? (yes J, I know we've hashed this out before but I didn't know Danny was a convert to that camp as well ).

Specifically, Acts 17:30 was a sermon to gentiles. Acts 20:21 says gentiles.

Byblos wrote:

DannyM wrote:
I'm not sure 'salvation is contingent on repentance' is even the right term. I think a basic premise we can all agree on is that salvation is an unmerited, free gift from God so let that be our launching pad. The question then becomes what role does repentance play? If you ask me (a Catholic that is) then I would say since salvation is not one time event but a process, repentance (and by extension baptism and the Eucharist) plays a huge role in one's walk with God. And again, let's not get into the whole issue of OSAS and all that other happy stuff but the way I see it repentance goes hand in hand with fellowship if you wish. But I think what Jlay is driving at is that the absence of repentance is as much an indicator of one's status as its presence but I will let him answer. Suffice it to say that the scriptures him and I quoted are a clear indication of the role repentance plays. And what do you mean by 'gentile salvation'? Is there one for gentiles and another for Jews? (yes J, I know we've hashed this out before but I didn't know Danny was a convert to that camp as well ).

I don’t know what camp I’m supposed to have joined, John. Of course I believe in secured salvation; that’s a given. I also believe in dividing the Word; I thought J did too.

Why have you both gone to Acts, Mark and Luke? If I’m going to be drawn to this idea that a repentance is necessary for one’s salvation then I’d expect the book of John to be quoted, or Romans. All of your verses relate to either those already saved or specifically to men of Israel to repent. Like I say, I’m not as Scripturally aware as you two, so trust me when I say I’m not getting cocky. Just a little miffed.

jlay wrote:Specifically, Acts 17:30 was a sermon to gentiles. Acts 20:21 says gentiles.

Okay. I'm going on a bible study. Be back soon.

DannyM wrote:I don’t know what camp I’m supposed to have joined, John. Of course I believe in secured salvation; that’s a given. I also believe in dividing the Word; I thought J did too.

Oy! Never mind Danny, it's a long story that if J is so inclined can get into; I don't want to misrepresent his position.

DannyM wrote:Why have you both gone to Acts, Mark and Luke? If I’m going to be drawn to this idea that a repentance is necessary for one’s salvation then I’d expect the book of John to be quoted, or Romans. All of your verses relate to either those already saved or specifically to men of Israel to repent. Like I say, I’m not as Scripturally aware as you two, so trust me when I say I’m not getting cocky. Just a little miffed.

What's wrong with Acts, Mark and Luke? I disagree with you that Acts is for the already saved as J indicated. And Israel's repentance is the same as gentile repentance (unless you're part of that camp that is).

By Acts 13 Paul's gentile gospel is in full swing, and repentance is still in it. A post salvation repentance is not mutually exclusive to pre-salvation repentance.
It is true that repentance is not mentioned in Paul's epistles as a 'condition' of salvation. Of course our salvation is by faith in Christ. However, I do see that mind change is a fundamental part of the process of one being drawn to Christ. That is why I believe the term doesn't appear in this context in Paul's letters. Redundant. The cross work is done, Christ is risen. There is nothing left to do but believe. Where as JTB preaching was to prepare Israel to welcome the Messiah. John is a gospel rooted in the concept of repentance, as it was written to persuade men (change minds), "that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31


Danny, all scripture is useful. It is an important distinction, and I'm sorry if this has muddied the water. The Gentile gospel is no respector of persons. Jew and gentile are no different. One's individual, personal salvation. There is a salvation for Israel, the Nation. The Messiah is to restore the Kingdom of God on Earth. Israel is God's chosen people to do this. So, when JTB preached to Israel, 'repent....' it did have a specific context. And perhaps I was hasty in using it as an example of repentance preceding a gentiles conversion.
The RCC thinks they are the Kingdom of God, and thus makes no distinction regarding these uses.

jlay wrote:Specifically, Acts 17:30 was a sermon to gentiles.

Acts 17:17,22,29,30,31,34

17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the market-place day by day with those who happened to be there.

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.

29 Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone— an image made by man's design and skill.

30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead..

34 A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

J, the sermon was to both gentiles and Jews.

Repentance is preached in order that men be made aware of judgement day, and Christ’s resurrection preached as mere proof of such a judgement day to come.

A few men became followers of Paul and believed. I’m certain these men repented, but it is specifically stated that these men believed.

Repentance is preached for God’s set day of judgement, with Christ’s resurrection offered as proof that this day will come.

And none of this mentions salvation. Christ’s resurrection is preached, yet salvation is not even mentioned.

jlay wrote:Acts 20:21 says gentiles.

Acts 20:21

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Nothing is stipulated here, in any order or fashion, about what is required for salvation.

On the other hand,

Romans 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:11

For the scripture says, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

I’m saved through the Faith of Christ. It is a gift. I know you know all this, J, but since I’m saved through the Faith of Christ, I’m certain that my repenting cannot contribute one jot to my salvation. But my salvation sure contributes to my repentance.

Byblos wrote:
Oy! Never mind Danny, it's a long story that if J is so inclined can get into; I don't want to misrepresent his position.

Okay. I feel left out now.

What's wrong with Acts, Mark and Luke? I disagree with you that Acts is for the already saved as J indicated. And Israel's repentance is the same as gentile repentance

It’s the same if it is being preached for salvation, sure.

(unless you're part of that camp that is).

Ha-ha. Okay, I’ll bite. I’d love for you to link me to the thread/s, because if it has to do with this subject I’m interested.

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:
Oy! Never mind Danny, it's a long story that if J is so inclined can get into; I don't want to misrepresent his position.

Okay. I feel left out now.

What's wrong with Acts, Mark and Luke? I disagree with you that Acts is for the already saved as J indicated. And Israel's repentance is the same as gentile repentance

It’s the same if it is being preached for salvation, sure.

(unless you're part of that camp that is).

Ha-ha. Okay, I’ll bite. I’d love for you to link me to the thread/s, because if it has to do with this subject I’m interested.

Read this. Especially the posts about the 2 covenants (or 1 covenant, 2 gospels rather).

jlay wrote:The RCC thinks they are the Kingdom of God, and thus makes no distinction regarding these uses.

Could you link me to official Catholic sites where the underlined is explicitly stated J?

Danny you are picking nits. The sermon was not in the synagogue, it was in the public square and it wouldn't matter if it was, because Paul explains the gospel he was given. "Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said,..."
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

Could you link me to official Catholic sites where the underlined is explicitly stated J?

Explicitly? No. From Wikipedia: "The third dimension of the interpretation of the Kingdom of God we could call the ecclesiastical: the Kingdom of God and the Church are related in different ways and brought into more or less close proximity."[38] That is to say that the Church is the Kingdom of God."
The RCC primarliy states its view on the "kingdom" as a spiritual and heavenly. However, I am speaking more to how they connect the heavenly to the earthly in what I see as a replacement theology of sorts. That being that the Kingdom Jesus preached to the Jews was not an actual restoring of Israel. That the parables are not specific to something that was for Israel to receive. The RCC views itself as THE official governing authority regarding the church on earth, and that the papal lineage is a divine chain, guided by God's hand to lead His people here on earth.

I’m certain that my repenting cannot contribute one jot to my salvation.

We are talking about two different things.

I would never say repenting 'contributes'. That is the same as a determined calvanist saying that faith is not cooperative, because if it were, a person would be contributing to their salvation. I know you say you believe that repentance is 'a change of mind,' yet I don't see you using it in that way.
So give me a concrete example of how you are using repentance as it relates to when you say, "But my salvation sure contributes to my repentance."

jlay wrote:

Could you link me to official Catholic sites where the underlined is explicitly stated J?

Explicitly? No. From Wikipedia: "The third dimension of the interpretation of the Kingdom of God we could call the ecclesiastical: the Kingdom of God and the Church are related in different ways and brought into more or less close proximity."[38] That is to say that the Church is the Kingdom of God."
The RCC primarliy states its view on the "kingdom" as a spiritual and heavenly. However, I am speaking more to how they connect the heavenly to the earthly in what I see as a replacement theology of sorts. That being that the Kingdom Jesus preached to the Jews was not an actual restoring of Israel. That the parables are not specific to something that was for Israel to receive. The RCC views itself as THE official governing authority regarding the church on earth, and that the papal lineage is a divine chain, guided by God's hand to lead His people here on earth.

This might explain it a little bit better than Wikipedia. And again, only offered for clarity not debate.

I promise you Byb, I've already read several Catholic commentaries on the 'Kingdom." But thanks for the link.

jlay wrote:I promise you Byb, I've already read several Catholic commentaries on the 'Kingdom." But thanks for the link.

I know you do J (I ain't worried about you). Clarity is always offered for the benefit of other readers first and foremost.

jlay wrote:Danny you are picking nits. The sermon was not in the synagogue, it was in the public square and it wouldn't matter if it was, because Paul explains the gospel he was given. "Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said,..."
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

J, I wasn‘t trying to say the sermon was in a synagogue; my point is to recognise Paul was among Jews and Greeks. I already mentioned verse 22 and the meeting of the Areopagus. But to be more clear,

Acts 17:19,21,22

19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?

21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.

I’m just saying that Paul was not addressing gentiles only.

But it does not really matter, since salvation doesn’t feature here.