Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:Cheezey, do you see anything in Leviticus 11:2-4 that may lead you to believe that the law was given to Israel specifically? Let's see:
“Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever divides a hoof, thus making split hoofs, and chews the cud, among the animals, that you may eat. 4 Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you.

Perhaps, the part that says, "speak to the sons of Israel, saying" might give us an idea that the message was for the sons of Israel, not everybody. No, I guess I'm reading into the text. "sons of Israel is just a generic term for gentile believers in Christ. What was I thinking?

Good point, Rick, but let's remember that Matthew 5:1-2 says that Yeshua spoke the Sermon on the Mount to the crowds and disciples, and that Paul's letters are addressed to "all who are beloved of G-d in Rome," "to the congregation of G-d which is at Corinth," "to G-d's people who are at Ephesus," et cetera. By this criterion, then, would not these teachings and instructions be specific to these specific audiences? Just because the Lord told Moshe to speak to the sons of Israel only means those were the people he was literally talking to. It doesn't mean it only applies to them.

RickD wrote:Ok Gman let's look at legalism:

Legalism

Theology. 1. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
2. the judging of conduct in terms of strict adherence to precise laws. — legalist, n. — legalistic, adj.

You and I both believe that salvation is not gained through works, so let's look at #2.
both you and cheezerrox are judging conduct of believers by adherence to the law, when you say we sin if we don't follow the sabbath laws, and when cheezerrox says we sin if we don't follow Jewish dietary laws. So, who's being legalistic?

Is it possible that the sabbath and dietary laws were given to the nation Israel. And when scripture says that all Israel is not israel, it means that there is s spiritual Israel that is not the same as national Israel? And perhaps this spiritual Israel is the one that gentile believers are a part of?

We may judge by certain laws, but you do as well, my friend, and so does Scripture. Yeshua (and Paul) said to kick out members from the congregation if they persist in their sin (Matthew 18:15-18; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5). Torah perscribed even death for those who committed sin. So, while we may judge with different standards, we're both judging by a set of laws. So we could both be said to be legalistic.

And it is certainly possible that the Sabbat and dietary laws were given to national Israel. In fact, I would agree. I would only add they weren't given ONLY to national Israel. And I would agree that there is a spiritual Israel distinct from but not entirely separate from national Israel. Spiritual Israel consists of all of G-d's people, both Jews and Gentiles who trust in Mashiach. Those who are Israel through the flesh are not a part of spiritual Israel by default; thus, when the rabbinical sages said in the Talmud that "all Israel has a place in the World to Come" (a belief held in Yeshua's day), they were wrong.

PaulSacramento wrote:Well, speaking of context:
You are correct that what caused the conversation to start was the unclean hands comment, but...
Jesus replied with text:

‘(H)This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘(I)But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

and parable:

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your (K)tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘(L)Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘(M)He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is (N)Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your (O)tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
The Heart of Man

14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16 [If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]

And after all that he explained to his followers:
17 When he had left the crowd and entered (P)the house, (Q)His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared (R)all foods (S)clean.) 20 And He was saying, “(T)That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, (U)envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”


Seems to me that it was a far greater lesson then simply one of "tradition".

I certainly agree, brother, our Lord was giving a much more important lesson than simply one of Scriptural laws versus traditional laws. But you have to look past the literal and see the SIGNIFICANCE of what He's claiming to these Orthodox Jewish men. He's disowning the laws considered just as much Torah and just as much Divinely ordained as the written Torah. Pharisees and all Orthodox Jews, in Yeshua's day as well as today, believe that the Oral Torah, the rabbinical laws, are just as authoratative and inspired as Scripture itself, and that they were given to Moshe on Sinai and he handed them down to Joshua, who handed them down generation after generation. So to claim that these ritual purity laws were not valid, had MUCH significance, more than "which laws to follow." It was the THEOLOGY behind it. Thus making it a hard word for his hearers. In fact, wouldn't making this conversation simply about what foods you can and can't eat take away the impact of this teaching a bit?

cheezerrox wrote: Spiritual Israel consists of all of G-d's people, both Jews and Gentiles who trust in Mashiach. Those who are Israel through the flesh are not a part of spiritual Israel by default; thus, when the rabbinical sages said in the Talmud that "all Israel has a place in the World to Come" (a belief held in Yeshua's day), they were wrong.

This is tricky stuff... I wouldn't exactly say that those who are currently physical Israel (Jews) are not spiritual. That is pretty harsh. There is currently a blindness that both Jew and Gentile have inherited Romans 11:25. It is a blindness in part on Israel, not a total blindness...

The kicker here is this.. When Yeshua comes back, He will come back as a Torah enforcing Jew... Therefore many of our Jewish brothers will be in shock that He is actually coming for their redemption. Not their condemnation... That is what many many Christians fail to see.. In fact many Christians might actually be the ones in the dark on this. Sorry.. I know that might be a little radical to understand.

The kicker here is this.. When Yeshua comes back, He will come back as a Torah enforcing Jew... Therefore many of our Jewish brothers will be in shock that He is actually coming for their redemption. Not their condemnation... That is what many many Christians fail to see.. In fact many Christians might actually be the ones in the dark on this. Sorry.. I know that might be a little radical to understand.

He is God, not a jew.

neo-x wrote:

The kicker here is this.. When Yeshua comes back, He will come back as a Torah enforcing Jew... Therefore many of our Jewish brothers will be in shock that He is actually coming for their redemption. Not their condemnation... That is what many many Christians fail to see.. In fact many Christians might actually be the ones in the dark on this. Sorry.. I know that might be a little radical to understand.

He is God, not a jew.

I'm taking a comfortable seat for this one.

neo-x wrote:
He is God, not a jew.

He is our Jewish - G-d - King of the Universe.. Matthew 27:37

He is our Jewish - G-d

That is the king of Oxymorons. God is Jew?

Mat 22:43-45
"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."' If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"

neo-x wrote:

He is our Jewish - G-d

That is the king of Oxymorons. God is Jew?

Mat 22:43-45
"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."' If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"

Of course G-d was a Jew... What did Jesus say about Himself?

Mark 15:2 “Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “You have said so,” Jesus replied.

Mark 15:18 "And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!”

Don't worry.. I know you are frightened by Jews.. There is nothing to get worried about. In the end they will be your best friends..

Don't worry.. I know you are frightened by Jews.. There is nothing to get worried about. In the end they will be your best friends..

That is silly to say, G.

To be honest I can not see how you can make God, a Jew. Is God the father, a Jew too? what about the Holy spirit, is the Holy spirit Jew too? Will Jesus come back as a Jew man or as King?

I certainly agree, brother, our Lord was giving a much more important lesson than simply one of Scriptural laws versus traditional laws. But you have to look past the literal and see the SIGNIFICANCE of what He's claiming to these Orthodox Jewish men. He's disowning the laws considered just as much Torah and just as much Divinely ordained as the written Torah. Pharisees and all Orthodox Jews, in Yeshua's day as well as today, believe that the Oral Torah, the rabbinical laws, are just as authoratative and inspired as Scripture itself, and that they were given to Moshe on Sinai and he handed them down to Joshua, who handed them down generation after generation. So to claim that these ritual purity laws were not valid, had MUCH significance, more than "which laws to follow." It was the THEOLOGY behind it. Thus making it a hard word for his hearers. In fact, wouldn't making this conversation simply about what foods you can and can't eat take away the impact of this teaching a bit?

When asked which commandments to follow, Jesus never mentioned ANY food laws or anything outside SOME of the Big 10.
When the apostles gathered to make it clear if Gentiles were under the Law, there verdict was:
"the Holy Spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper." (Acts 15:27-28)

RE: God/Jesus being a Jew:
Long before there was a people knows as Hebrews, long before there were people, God was.
I remind us all of:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile...in Christ"

neo-x wrote: To be honest I can not see how you can make God, a Jew. Is God the father, a Jew too? what about the Holy spirit, is the Holy spirit Jew too? Will Jesus come back as a Jew man or as King?

Of course G-d has Jewish roots... Actually I think it's cool that G-d is a Jew... Amen. I really don't understand what all this fuss is about Yeshua being a Jew. Of course He was Jew... Who cares about that? Big deal.

PaulSacramento wrote:RE: God/Jesus being a Jew:
Long before there was a people knows as Hebrews, long before there were people, God was.
I remind us all of:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile...in Christ"

That's talking about the body of Christ.... Technically speaking you could advocate there wasn't any Jews until the times of Abraham. That isn't the point. The point here is that the movement involved Jewish roots... It clearly did. So? What is all the panic over this?

Gman wrote:This is tricky stuff... I wouldn't exactly say that those who are currently physical Israel (Jews) are not spiritual. That is pretty harsh. There is currently a blindness that both Jew and Gentile have inherited Romans 11:25. It is a blindness in part on Israel, not a total blindness...

The kicker here is this.. When Yeshua comes back, He will come back as a Torah enforcing Jew... Therefore many of our Jewish brothers will be in shock that He is actually coming for their redemption. Not their condemnation... That is what many many Christians fail to see.. In fact many Christians might actually be the ones in the dark on this. Sorry.. I know that might be a little radical to understand.

I'm certainly not saying that ALL physical Israel aren't spiritual. Not at all. But, those who are not of the Spirit of Mashiach; ie, those who don't have faith in Yeshua as Lord and Messiah, are not spiritual, because they don't have G-d's Spirit indwelling them, whether Jew or Gentile. All Israel will eventually be saved, but it doesn't mean that each Israelite is saved based on their heritage alone.

I agree Yeshua will come back a Torah enforcing Jew, and that many Jewish brothers will be in shock. But when He comes again, He will be coming for judgement, unlike His last appearing. Those who did not trust in Him, will be judged righteously for their sin.

Now, I do believe that those who have not had the Gospel presented to them, or presented by a believer or presented for what it really is (as opposed to being presented by someone who's out to make the message look bad), may be able to be saved, simply due to the lack of an oppurtunity to meet the message with belief (Romans 10:14-15). And this is true of many Jews, who are indoctrinated with anti-Gospel/Christian propaganda for their entire lives. But it's not because of their Jewishness, and their Jewishness will not save them.

Gman wrote:Of course G-d was a Jew... What did Jesus say about Himself?

Mark 15:2 “Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “You have said so,” Jesus replied.

Mark 15:18 "And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!”

Don't worry.. I know you are frightened by Jews.. There is nothing to get worried about. In the end they will be your best friends..

Yeshua was and is a Jew, but G-d wasn't, isn't, and will never be a Jew. He transcends race, HaShem is not a man. He became a man through the incarnation of the Word, Yeshua the Messiah, but He Himself, in His essence, is not a Jew. He simply chose the Jews as His nation and His people, an immense honor for sure, but He is not defined by them; they are defined by Him.

And G my friend, I think the claim that Neo, or anyone on this forum, is frightened by Jews is going a bit far. There's certainly nothing to suggest that coming from him or anyone else here.

PaulSacramento wrote:When asked which commandments to follow, Jesus never mentioned ANY food laws or anything outside SOME of the Big 10.
When the apostles gathered to make it clear if Gentiles were under the Law, there verdict was:
"the Holy Spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper." (Acts 15:27-28)

When asked for general guidelines, Yeshua most certainly went to the Big 10 right away, because they're very central to the basic moral ideas of Torah; which is also the reason why He constantly went to the Sh'ma (Deut 6:4 "Hear, Israel, HaShem is our G-d, HaShem is One. And you shall love HaShem your G-d with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might...") and the law to love one's neighbor as himself (Leviticus 19:18). But to say He never mentioned anything outside of (some) of the 10 isn't true.

Matthew 5:18-9
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teachs others to do the same, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Matthew 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Torah: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

Also, in the ruling of the Jerusalem council's ruling, aren't the prohibitions of eating blood and things strangled commandments in the Torah? And don't you think it'd be strange to make those 4 rules the only rules to "burden" the Gentile believers with? Doesn't it make more sense that they were just practical, contemporary rules to ensure fellowship in the new-born Christian family, because as obvious from the believing Pharisees' statement in verse 5, many of the Jewish believers (who were the first believers and the majority at that time) were uncomfortable with all these Gentiles coming to the faith, because their towns were centered around temples where sacrifices were made to idols, and there were temple prostitutes? Yet, these temples were also where the banks were and where business transactions were made, and where meat was bought. So, these 4 laws make MUCH more sense as being a ruling on how to preserve unity and fellowship in the Body, as opposed to the 4 specific commandments given to the Gentiles as opposed to the rest of the laws apparently given only to the Jews. Note also verse 21, which says, "For Moshe from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Shabbat." This certainly gives the impression that they expected these new Gentile believers to get their moralty and guidance from the Scriptures; the Torah; through fellowship with the already existing believers, as opposed to these four, simple rules that don't touch much on morality.

cheezerrox wrote: I'm certainly not saying that ALL physical Israel aren't spiritual. Not at all. But, those who are not of the Spirit of Mashiach; ie, those who don't have faith in Yeshua as Lord and Messiah, are not spiritual, because they don't have G-d's Spirit indwelling them, whether Jew or Gentile.

Yes however keep in mind there has always been a remnant of Jews saved by grace throughout all times - Romans 11:5. How it will happen I'm not entirely sure however it is possible when they see Him coming through the clouds. Zechariah 12:10-11, Zechariah 14:2-3. We just need to be open to that.. But true, ultimately we all will have to face Yeshua in judgement.

cheezerrox wrote:All Israel will eventually be saved, but it doesn't mean that each Israelite is saved based on their heritage alone.

True, I never insinuated that differently..

cheezerrox wrote:I agree Yeshua will come back a Torah enforcing Jew, and that many Jewish brothers will be in shock. But when He comes again, He will be coming for judgement, unlike His last appearing. Those who did not trust in Him, will be judged righteously for their sin.

Yes.. However we still need to define what it really means to trust in Him. Without Torah we can get really lost.

cheezerrox wrote:Now, I do believe that those who have not had the Gospel presented to them, or presented by a believer or presented for what it really is (as opposed to being presented by someone who's out to make the message look bad), may be able to be saved, simply due to the lack of an oppurtunity to meet the message with belief (Romans 10:14-15). And this is true of many Jews, who are indoctrinated with anti-Gospel/Christian propaganda for their entire lives. But it's not because of their Jewishness, and their Jewishness will not save them.

Just like how someone's Christianity will never save them either. These are tricky situations..

cheezerrox wrote:Yeshua was and is a Jew, but G-d wasn't, isn't, and will never be a Jew. He transcends race, HaShem is not a man. He became a man through the incarnation of the Word, Yeshua the Messiah, but He Himself, in His essence, is not a Jew. He simply chose the Jews as His nation and His people, an immense honor for sure, but He is not defined by them; they are defined by Him.

You see, I would tend to differ on that... I would say that He is Jew. But He is also gentile, white, black, brown, yellow, pink and even orange. If He truly transcends our world He represents all mankind. But that is my perspective.. G-d and Yeshua are the same..

cheezerrox wrote:And G my friend, I think the claim that Neo, or anyone on this forum, is frightened by Jews is going a bit far. There's certainly nothing to suggest that coming from him or anyone else here.

I tend to differ on that... I think many are terrified of the Jewishness of Yeshua. Like it is some kind of virus.. I really see it completely different.

Gman wrote:Yes however keep in mind there has always been a remnant of Jews saved by grace throughout all times - Romans 11:5. How it will happen I'm not entirely sure however it is possible when they see Him coming through the clouds. Zechariah 12:10-11, Zechariah 14:2-3. We just need to be open to that.. But true, ultimately we all will have to face Yeshua in judgement.

There most certainly is a remnant of Jews saved throughout of all times, no disagreements here.

True, I never insinuated that differently..

I didn't mean to accuse you of saying that Jews could be saved based on heritage, but you seemed to take offence to the idea that physical isn't spiritual, collectively, excluding the remnant, obviously. I just wanted to make sure that we all were clear on the idea that salvation is through Yeshua alone.

Yes.. However we still need to define what it really means to trust in Him. Without Torah we can get really lost.

True to a point, but what really keeps us is G-d's Spirit. Most of our brothers and sisters don't keep Torah, and yet have the Spirit, and G-d does awesome things through them. We can't argue with the Spirit, even if we advocate the view that Torah is still G-d's way of life He wishes us to live by.

You see, I would tend to differ on that... I would say that He is Jew. But He is also gentile, white, black, brown, yellow, pink and even orange. If He truly transcends our world He represents all mankind. But that is my perspective.. G-d and Yeshua are the same..

Well, then wouldn't you say, with that way of seeing it, that it'd be a bit misleading to call Him a Jew, considering you see Him as no more of a Jew then He is a Goy?

I tend to differ on that... I think many are terrified of the Jewishness of Yeshua. Like it is some kind of virus.. I really see it completely different.

Some may not like the idea of Yeshua being Jewish, but I think we can agree that nobody on this forum has given this impression. Nobody here is anti-semitic.