Evidence for God from Science

Wolfgang,

The site you are quoting from http://tithinghelps.us/INTRODUCTION.php is a heretical site. That site is full of unbiblical teaching. The first thing I clicked on was on their Introduction section. This is in their first paragraph of their first section:

Galatians 5:18: "But IF you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT UNDER THE LAW." --- New King James Version. (You are not under the penalty of the law because you are obeying the law, a strict requirement, and the only possible way for the vast majority of people to obtain the precious Holy Spirit in the first place, which is needed for salvation.)

They believe obeying the law is the only possible way for the vast majority of people to obtain the Holy Spirit.

Wolfgang, I warned you before about promoting these cultic heretical doctrines. If you want to peddle this crap, do it somewhere else. This is from our board purpose:

This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs. As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civilised discussions on Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated.

The website you keep quoting is arguing against the essential belief that salvation is by God's grace, through faith. Your heretical website, from the quote I posted above, believes one is saved by following the law.

This is your last warning. This forum will not be a platform to promote your heretical beliefs.

Wolfgang wrote:If Acts 15:20,29 is a complete, exhaustive list of laws for Christians to obey, Gentile believers can now murder, cheat, lie, remove property landmarks, commit bribery, abuse the name of the Lord, work on the Sabbath, eat an animal torn by a wild animal, consult wizards, eat trichinosis infected pork and other toxic, scavenger meat, forget about tithing which often saves the helpless hungry from starving to death, curse their parents, covet, divorce for frivolous reasons and marry someone else, look at women adulterously, etc. which of course is a ridiculous conclusion. Acts 15:20,28,29 therefore does not even remotely begin to prove that the Mosaic laws have been nullified."

This fails in so many ways.
The context is Acts 15:1,5 "Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 5"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
Murder was wrong before the mosaic laws. As is stealing, etc. Further, it is a strawman argument to accuse me of saying the laws are nullifed. The laws aren't nullified. It is a matter of application. The Temple was destroyed, no priests, no Israel.
Your hermaneutic is, 'if the Bible says it I should do it.' But I'd bet a dollar to a donut that you don't follow the law. You follow what you think to be the law based on either your interpretation, or whatever cult you are getting your talking points from. So, in that regard you are really no different than several others here, only to what extent you follow the law. Or, when you will follow the Law. A biblical answer is great, but then JW's and Mormons can give those as well.

Concerning the "board's purpose," I certainly of course have determined that Christ "is for me." I have no intention of putting down or arguing against essential Christian beliefs as explained by the Bible.

I should have a discussion of Colossians 2:16, mentioned by jlay, ready in a day or two.

Wolfgang wrote:Concerning the "board's purpose," I certainly of course have determined that Christ "is for me." I have no intention of putting down or arguing against essential Christian beliefs as explained by the Bible.

I should have a discussion of Colossians 2:16, mentioned by jlay, ready in a day or two.

Wolfgang, you are copy and pasting from a website that states they believe obeying the law is the only possible way for many to be saved. that is heretical, and it most certainly goes against the essential Christian belief that salvation comes by God's Grace through faith in Christ, not legalism and observance of the law.

For the record the apostle Paul was never against circumcision Romans 2:25 or the Biblical festivals, 1 Corinthians 5:7-8. What we was against however was following G-d's laws in a legalistic manner..

Colossians 2:16-17 is talking about those people who judge YOU when you practice the Biblical festivals or Sabbath. Not the other way around...

Colossians 2:16-17
So don’t let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. 17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.

Why? Because these are a shadow of things that are coming in the future......

Gman wrote:For the record the apostle Paul was never against circumcision Romans 2:25 or the Biblical festivals, 1 Corinthians 5:7-8. What we was against however was following G-d's laws in a legalistic manner..

Colossians 2:16-17 is talking about those people who judge YOU when you practice the Biblical festivals or Sabbath. Not the other way around...

Colossians 2:16-17
So don’t let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. 17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.

Why? Because these are a shadow of things that are coming in the future......

G, those are a shadow of what's in Christ. The eating, drinking, festivals, etc. are what the jews judged people on. If one didn't eat the right foods, follow the jewish customs, etc. then they believed one wasn't worthy. It's not those things that we are to be judged on because the reality of all that stuff is found in Christ.

RickD wrote:G, those are a shadow of what's in Christ. The eating, drinking, festivals, etc. are what the jews judged people on. If one didn't eat the right foods, follow the jewish customs, etc. then they believed one wasn't worthy.

However in the context of Colossians 2 we can clearly see in verse 8 that false teachers had engaged the Colossians to change G-d's laws into their own deceitful doctrine and theology.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Therefore we can clearly see that Paul was warning the Colossians of the false teachers that would judge them in Colossians 2:16-17. The Biblical festivals and Sabbaths were certainly not human tradition. They were ordained by G-d.

RickD wrote:It's not those things that we are to be judged on because the reality of all that stuff is found in Christ.

Which is why we celebrate Christ in the festival of Passover... Or Pesach.

RickD, yes, I agree with you that salvation, ultimately, comes through grace and not by law keeping or self righteousness. Don't you believe, though, that poor law keeping can adversely affect the fate of Christians? How do you explain 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 which tells us CHRISTIAN adulterers, CHRISTIAN gays, CHRISTIAN drunks, CHRISTIAN thieves, and covetous CHRISTIANS will be barred from the Lord's kingdom? The word CHRISTIAN is not in those verses, but you can tell by the subject content that the verses are directed at Christian listeners.

ROMANS 3:24,25: "...... GRACE, through ...... Jesus: 25 ...... in His pity, God let the SINS of EARLIER TIMES GO UNPUNISHED." --- Bible in Basic English

Explain that verse. It seems to want to say that grace has its limitations, correct? That verse appears to say that sins committed before baptism and conversion to Christianity ("sins of earlier times") are erased and forgotten by the gift of grace. Where in the Bible does it specifically say sins committed after repentance and baptism are completely covered and erased by grace? Yes, there is a verse or two that says if you confess your sins, Jesus is our Mediator (will defend us or stand up for us), etc., basically saying that grace can erase those sins, too, but those verses assume one is serious about not committing those sins again. If I am wrong, please correct me so that I will not misunderstand.

Revelation 14:12 reveals that the saints, the Christians, obey the laws in the commandments, most likely the 10 commandments, which would also most likely include the Saturday Sabbath law, a Mosaic law (which seems to imply other Mosaic laws are still in force, too [if I am wrong, please correct me]). Again, the Bible clearly tells us that it is grace that really saves us, but righteousness (or law keeping) seems to play some kind of very serious role in the fate and destiny of Christians. Does not that Revelation 14:12 verse imply something ominous about those who do not keep the commandments?

Explain 1 Corinthians 9:27. Paul admits he himself could lose his salvation if he falls short of one or more standards. If you believe "once saved, always saved," explain that verse. The verse seems to say that failure to be righteous enough can cost you your salvation. If it does not say that, explain to us what it says so that we can all accurately understand it.

In Acts 5:1-11 Ananias and Sapphira, apparently well respected, BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS possessing the Holy Spirit, were EXECUTED ALMOST IMMEDIATELY for breaking one little, teeney weeney law, lying. How do you reconcile that poor couple's sad fate with the "once saved, always saved" and "saved by grace" idea?

What about James 2:12? Are you going to "sweep that under the rug?" "Throw it out the window?" "Delete it?" "Claim it is a misprint?" That verse commands Christians to do as those who will be judged by the law (Mosaic law since nomos, Strong's 3551, is in that verse). In other words, does not that verse command Christians to "copycat" and "mimic" the behavior of those who will be judged by the law (law keepers)? If not, please explain it so that we can understand it.

Explain Matthew 7:23 so that I can better understand it. That verse is about some kind of law keeping. Whatever kind of law keeping it is about, it seems that Christians deficient in that department will be affected.

Again, I fully understand that grace, the perfect sacrifice of Jesus for our sins (past, prebaptismal sins only according to Romans 3:25 [if I am wrong here, please correct me]) is what really, really saves us, not righteousness or any kind of obedience to laws. But from the above verses, it looks like breaking laws can really hurt us Christians, correct?

The above was not copied from any heretical website, or any website at all.

Wolfgang wrote:Explain Matthew 7:23 so that I can better understand it. That verse is about some kind of law keeping. Whatever kind of law keeping it is about, it seems that Christians deficient in that department will be affected.
Again, I fully understand that grace, the perfect sacrifice of Jesus for our sins (past, prebaptismal sins only according to Romans 3:25 [if I am wrong here, please correct me]) is what really, really saves us, not righteousness or any kind of obedience to laws. But from the above verses, it looks like breaking laws can really hurt us Christians, correct?

My argument is is almost exactly being stated the same way yours is and without fail everytime I talk about obeying commands or not sinning or anything in that arena Rick automatically infers that it is an argument of salvation by works. We obviously are seeing the same things within gods word about sinning and how salvation can be affected by willfull sinning and it seems that we both feel that this has importance to be understood correctly so that we don't make an error causing the loss of Gods free gift. I just don't seem to be able to convey that understanding to him even after approaching it from a variety of perspectives. You should take a look at the other thread in this section and see what I mean.

KBCid wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:Explain Matthew 7:23 so that I can better understand it. That verse is about some kind of law keeping. Whatever kind of law keeping it is about, it seems that Christians deficient in that department will be affected.
Again, I fully understand that grace, the perfect sacrifice of Jesus for our sins (past, prebaptismal sins only according to Romans 3:25 [if I am wrong here, please correct me]) is what really, really saves us, not righteousness or any kind of obedience to laws. But from the above verses, it looks like breaking laws can really hurt us Christians, correct?

My argument is is almost exactly being stated the same way yours is and without fail everytime I talk about obeying commands or not sinning or anything in that arena Rick automatically infers that it is an argument of salvation by works. We obviously are seeing the same things within gods word about sinning and how salvation can be affected by willfull sinning and it seems that we both feel that this has importance to be understood correctly so that we don't make an error causing the loss of Gods free gift. I just don't seem to be able to convey that understanding to him even after approaching it from a variety of perspectives. You should take a look at the other thread in this section and see what I mean.

KBC, see my answer to you in the other thread.

Wolfgang wrote:
RickD, yes, I agree with you that salvation, ultimately, comes through grace and not by law keeping or self righteousness. Don't you believe, though, that poor law keeping can adversely affect the fate of Christians?

NO! Once one has the indwelling Holy Spirit, one is sealed in Christ. The HS is God's promise that a believer's salvation is assured.

Wolfgang wrote:
How do you explain 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 which tells us CHRISTIAN adulterers, CHRISTIAN gays, CHRISTIAN drunks, CHRISTIAN thieves, and covetous CHRISTIANS will be barred from the Lord's kingdom? The word CHRISTIAN is not in those verses, but you can tell by the subject content that the verses are directed at Christian listeners.

Wolfgang, those passages aren't talking about Christians(believers). Look at the verses again, and see verse 11
1Corinthians 6:9-11:

Or ado you not know that the unrighteous will not binherit the kingdom of God? cDo not be deceived; dneither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor 1effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will ainherit the kingdom of God.

11 aSuch were some of you; but you were bwashed, but you were csanctified, but you were djustified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Some of the believers WERE...But now they are washed, sanctified, justified in Jesus Christ. These verses are talking about unbelievers.

Wolfgang wrote:
Explain that verse. It seems to want to say that grace has its limitations, correct? That verse appears to say that sins committed before baptism and conversion to Christianity ("sins of earlier times") are erased and forgotten by the gift of grace. Where in the Bible does it specifically say sins committed after repentance and baptism are completely covered and erased by grace? Yes, there is a verse or two that says if you confess your sins, Jesus is our Mediator (will defend us or stand up for us), etc., basically saying that grace can erase those sins, too, but those verses assume one is serious about not committing those sins again. If I am wrong, please correct me so that I will not misunderstand.

Wolfgang, Christ paid the price for ALL sins. Past, present and future. As I told KBC, in the flesh, being serious about not sinning, is futile. The flesh(sinful nature) naturally sins.

Revelation 14:12 reveals that the saints, the Christians, obey the laws in the commandments, most likely the 10 commandments, which would also most likely include the Saturday Sabbath law, a Mosaic law (which seems to imply other Mosaic laws are still in force, too [if I am wrong, please correct me]). Again, the Bible clearly tells us that it is grace that really saves us, but righteousness (or law keeping) seems to play some kind of very serious role in the fate and destiny of Christians. Does not that Revelation 14:12 verse imply something ominous about those who do not keep the commandments?

Wolfgang, Revelation 14 is highly symbolic. To equate Revelation with saying that keeping the law helps a believer keep his salvation, is not consistent with scripture.

In Acts 5:1-11 Ananias and Sapphira, apparently well respected, BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS possessing the Holy Spirit, were EXECUTED ALMOST IMMEDIATELY for breaking one little, teeney weeney law, lying. How do you reconcile that poor couple's sad fate with the "once saved, always saved" and "saved by grace" idea?

Where does scripture say that they were believers?

What about James 2:12? Are you going to "sweep that under the rug?" "Throw it out the window?" "Delete it?" "Claim it is a misprint?" That verse commands Christians to do as those who will be judged by the law (Mosaic law since nomos, Strong's 3551, is in that verse). In other words, does not that verse command Christians to "copycat" and "mimic" the behavior of those who will be judged by the law (law keepers)? If not, please explain it so that we can understand it.

Judged by the law of LIBERTY.

wolfgang wrote:
Again, I fully understand that grace, the perfect sacrifice of Jesus for our sins (past, prebaptismal sins only according to Romans 3:25 [if I am wrong here, please correct me]) is what really, really saves us, not righteousness or any kind of obedience to laws. But from the above verses, it looks like breaking laws can really hurt us Christians, correct?

Wolfgang, you are trying to understand difficult scripture when you don't even understand the basics. This is a case of trying to fly before you learn how to crawl. A believer or "Christian" is one who places his faith in Jesus Christ. I'm going to tell you the same thing I told KBC. You need to repent. Change your belief on who Jesus Christ is, and what he has done. You can't just believe in any "jesus". Jesus Christ is God! No other jesus has the power to save.

In Acts 5:1-11 Ananias and Sapphira, apparently well respected, BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS possessing the Holy Spirit, were EXECUTED ALMOST IMMEDIATELY for breaking one little, teeney weeney law, lying. How do you reconcile that poor couple's sad fate with the "once saved, always saved" and "saved by grace" idea?

RickD wrote:Where does scripture say that they were believers?

Seeing as this has some relevance to what I'm investigating I spent some time reading some perspectives that other Christians have given on this particular point;

Acts 5 - IVP New Testament Commentaries
Negative Example: Ananias and Sapphira

...Ananias and Sapphira learn that in this life God can, and when he chooses will, punish sinners either by immediate death or by some other means. This can happen to those who claim to be, and may truly be, a part of his covenant people, enjoy his salvation blessings and yet deliberately sin and remain unrepentant (1 Cor 5:5; 1 Jn 5:16-17).
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

For Christians today this is still a temptation: to so luxuriate in the love and grace of God that we do not take seriously the consequences of our deliberate sinning. But God will not be mocked (Gal 6:7-8).
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

...The message of this for Christian and non-Christian alike is self-evident. Christians must realize that the selfless, transparent fellowship of the church must never be violated by selfish hypocrisy. Further, it is proper to employ discipline to guard the church's integrity, unity and purity. For the non-Christian, this account is a warning: Think twice before joining this holy fellowship. Are you willing to pay the price--fully renouncing wicked ways and full-heartedly embracing Christ and other believers in his body, the church?
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c ... le-Ananias

Here is that websites statement of faith in case it may be an issue but I didn't notice anything odd;
http://www.biblegateway.com/about/faith.php

The point that keeps being pressed is that believers are supposed to turn from sinning. Essentially inferring that even after one accepts Christ that they are still culpable for their actions in regards to continued and knowingly sinning. If that is not what is being said above then my english must be very poor indeed even after 6+ yrs of college.

RickD asked where in the Bible does it say that Ananias and Sapphira were believers. Acts 4:31 says that the group the doomed couple was in were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and Acts 4:32 documents that the couple agreed with their fellow Christians that their possessions were no longer their own, but now belonged to others as well. Verse 32 described the group of people that included Ananias and Sapphira as "believers." Acts 4:33 documents that "great grace" was upon them all, which would have included the to be condemned couple.

RickD, if Christians no longer need to strictly obey certain spiritual laws, can you explain why this poor very Christian couple was so mercilessly and so very quickly executed, with the Apostle Peter approvingly witnessing the execution?

Wolfgang wrote:RickD asked where in the Bible does it say that Ananias and Sapphira were believers. Acts 4:31 says that the group the doomed couple was in were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and Acts 4:32 documents that the couple agreed with their fellow Christians that their possessions were no longer their own, but now belonged to others as well. Verse 32 described the group of people that included Ananias and Sapphira as "believers." Acts 4:33 documents that "great grace" was upon them all, which would have included the to be condemned couple.

RickD, if Christians no longer need to strictly obey certain spiritual laws, can you explain why this poor very Christian couple was so mercilessly and so very quickly executed, with the Apostle Peter approvingly witnessing the execution?

Wolfgang, I can see how you think that A & S were believers from acts 4:32

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

But, since A & S didn't share what they had, and weren't one in heart and mind with the believers, maybe they weren't believers after all.

Scripture doesn't say that they were believers, now does it?

Look at Acts 5:1:

5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,

If scripture said, "But a believer named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira... It would be clear. But it doesn't.

You can certainly infer that they were believers if you choose.

From http://www.gotquestions.org/Ananias-and-Sapphira.html

The drastic punishment of instant death also served to expose Ananias and Sapphira as unbelievers in the midst of the redeemed of God. Unlike the rest of the church, covetousness had filled their hearts, along with a desire for glory, so much so that they shamelessly displayed their religiosity. Their hidden sins manifested themselves in an ultimate act of hypocrisy. There was no fear of God before their eyes (Romans 3:18), and their unbelief led them to completely misunderstand the power that had been evident in the apostles’ lives and teaching. Only a heart unredeemed by the Savior could prompt such behavior.

Do you still think they were believers?

RickD, you said, quoting, "NO! Once one has the indwelling Holy Spirit, one is sealed in Christ. The HS is God's promise that a believer's salvation is assured."

Can a believer with the HS lose his salvation by being tempted to briefly sin, and then succumbing to sin?

It looks like the Bible said Ananias and Sapphira at one time did have the indwelling Holy Spirit, etc., strongly implying that at least for a time they were "believers," but temptation overcame them to break the commandments to not lie, to not covet, etc.

Could you tell me what defines "belief"? Is it faith only? If belief is more than faith, what else, very briefly, is "belief"? What is sin?

Also, you forgot to answer my question about 1 Corinthians 9:27. If your idea that the indwelling HS guaranteed salvation unconditionally, according to your quote above, then why in the world did Paul in verse 27 admit that he himself could lose his salvation if he fails to adequately discipline himself? Paul used the specific word "discipline" which involves self control (as in apparently guarding against violating certain established standards of conduct). Paul's "body" would include his mouth and tongue, which under certain circumstances could easily sin (as in speech), as well as other parts of his body, of course. Is there not a major conflict there between what you said and what Paul said? It really does look like salvation is to a certain extent conditional according to 1 Corinthians 9:27. Again, I acknowledge that it is actually grace that saves us, not obedience to laws, if there are no other serious problems in a Christian's life, according to the Bible. If I am wrong, correct me so that I can properly understand these verses.