Question about salvation, repentance, obedience and works

[Jac3510]

Why assume John 8:24 is saying anything about what happens after we die? If they are going to die in their sins, they must be in their sins now. I don't think we should read a Pauline style positional statement here about being "in sins." Jesus is making a practical observation--the Pharisees were sinning all sorts of ways. That's what unbelievers do. They are dead spiritually, and their spiritual deadness leads them to sin, or as John puts it, they walk in darkness. Jesus is just saying that they will live their whole lives that way if they don't come to Him, passing out of death and into life, and thereby walk in the light, having abundant life.

Given that, I don't see a contradiction between saying that my sins are atoned for and yet I live in them. Lots of carnal Christians do just that, wouldn't you agree?

[Kurieuo]

There is just becoming more and more I disagree with, such that I don't know where to respond. Some of which has been covered and I could create another circle exchange, some new like all sin being the same level, which I was also taugh once upon a time, but anyone who sticks their head out to take real stock will see is a bunch of bolony.

I'm responding from my smartphone right now. And I won't have time to create my own response as need to get back to business so I can make a living for my family. But I'd encourage others to participate and share their thoughts.

Thanks for the exchange Chris... It's always good I think to have someone able to challenge and defend in discussions. Keeps one sharp. Look forward to being able to continue exchanges in future, but right now I must bow out.

[Gman]

There is just becoming more and more I disagree with, such that I don't know where to respond. Some of which has been covered and I could create another circle exchange, some new like all sin being the same level, which I was also taugh once upon a time, but anyone who sticks their head out to take real stock will see is a bunch of bolony.

I'm responding from my smartphone right now. And I won't have time to create my own response as need to get back to business so I can make a living for my family. But I'd encourage others to participate and share their thoughts.

Thanks for the exchange Chris... It's always good I think to have someone able to challenge and defend in discussions. Keeps one sharp. Look forward to being able to continue exchanges in future, but right now I must bow out.

Glad to see that you have your thinking cap on there K.

[Gman]

Uh yes, wrong assertions. Considering what I've read on Free Grace theology. Right off the get go, you fundementally fail to grasp the depth of grace.

Yes.. You fail to see what grace is.. Take away G-d's laws and you have no grace. In fact you have no definition of grace outside of G-d's commandments. If you think that laws are bad why don't you start taking down all the laws that run our country? From there fire all the police and judges that up hold the laws. Set all the prisoners free because of "free grace."

We will see how long your grace will last.

Now, you said that all sins are covered and there is nothing a person can do to keep their salvation. Yet it seems you've just said that if a person slips into agregious sin such as rape or murder, that they either can't have grace to begin with, or will have it removed. Which is it? Was David saved? What about Lot, who, although spoken of as righteous, continually went the wrong direction. Or perhaps Solomon who we know ended up far from God.

Again I will repeat myself again.. We follow G-d's commandments BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED. If you will notice about King David, he ALWAYS had a repentive heart when it came to G-d's commandments. Even when he broke them, and tried to stop sinning when he was confronted 2 Samuel 12:13. That is seeing G-d's grace.. Murder rape and stealing is not allowed in G-d's kingdom. If we claim to follow G-d, we do our best to uphold HIS commandments not to do such sins.

Or, maybe you are saying that we are advocating people keep sinning once they are saved. Either way, you are wrong.

Very funny... I have never advocated such.

Wow! thanks for the enlightenment. This is fruitful. No, progressive revelation doesn't flush anything. It only dictates what we apply. BTW, That's a strawman, and just an unloving debate tactic.
Absolutely, things still need to be fulfilled. Where did anyone say differently?

If you are advocating that G-d's commandments are done away with, we are in complete disagreement. If that is what you mean by PR.

OK then, where does Paul instruct Gentile believers to follow the Law? Dude, he wrote an entire book telling them just the opposite. Galatians.

Where did Paul advocate that to follow G-d's commandments? In many many many places.. Here are just a few off the top of my head. Galations DOES NOT go against G-d commandments as I have explained many times before.

Romans 2:13, “for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.”

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God’s Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin’s “Torah.”

1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the Torah is good, provided one uses it in the way the Torah itself intends.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and recalling too how from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which can give you the wisdom that leads to deliverance through trusting in Yeshua the Messiah. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living; 17 thus anyone who belongs to God may be fully equipped for every good work.

You might as well reject the ministry of Paul. Christ earthly ministry was for apostate Israel. He instructed his disciples to NOT go the way of the Gentiles. Is it possible that not everything spoken to Israel in that time is applicable for us today?

Couple of problems here in how you use this verse. Did you know the SOM never mentions faith once. Do you think it's an instruction on how to get saved today? And it says that even those who break them will be called least "IN" the Kingdom. Where are they? Oh, "IN" the Kingdom.

Christ said "heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-19 Has Christ come back yet to restore His Kingdom yet to Israel?

So, are you claiming to be perfect? This is about salvation. Are you claiming you must be perfect to be saved? What are you trying to argue here?

No... Christ in Matthew 5:48 said to BE PERFECT.. Why would Christ command us to be perfect if we already were perfect?

Purpose for this proof text?

Because they weren't following G-d's laws...

Rape and murder??

Sure we are forgiven for our sins... But that doesn't mean that we have a license to sin anymore.

Sure, I just wish you quit saying differently. Your preaching back door, works salvation.

Like I said before, faith will have works that comes with the package deal.. What works? The ones written in the Bible....

Because you are redefining faith as something it isn't. Jac already addressed this way back.

Jacs faith and the way I'm conveying it is completely the opposite. He believes that any commandment given to us by G-d is automatically legalism.. He believes that the Bible is legalism.

G, you are saying a REAL believer WILL produce works. Therefore, they are necessary for salvation.

No I believe that good works are the result of salvation. Therefore we keep G-d's commandments BECAUSE we are saved. We don't follow them because we have to. We follow them because we want to.

Of course not. But you have said over and over that works are the evidence of salvation. You obviously believe that you have works. So, I can only assume that your assurance of salvation is based on your behavior.

Our behavior won't always match up to G-d's word. Our willingness to change should however as evidence of the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't answer the question and you know it.

You don't even know what questions you are asking...

So faith is following the commandments?

Faith is wanting to follow G-d's commandments. What does James say again about faith and works?

James 2:17-24, “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

What if I'm compelled to challenge you that what you present is a false Gospel, and that all this Messianic activity is of no value?

Be my guest...

Uh, that's a condition. I'm sorry you can't see it.

That is simply silly.. Saying that a reaction out of faith is a condition.. So in your book, every reaction to faith is conditional?

I recommend to anyone, that they read J. Michael Cocoris' paper on John MaCarthur's Lordship Salvation.
Very similar view to Gman. It's a lengthy read, but it really gets to the meat of why this view ultimately fails.
http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf

So we should destroy G-d's commandments in the Bible simply because we will never be able to follow them? Brilliant... You are missing the entire point of the Bible..

[Jac3510]

Jacs faith and the way I'm conveying it is completely the opposite. He believes that any commandment given to us by G-d is automatically legalism.. He believes that the Bible is legalism.

That's absolutely absurd. It's ridiculous how much you lie about what I believe. And that's really all it is. Lying. It's despicable, but I've come to expect nothing else from you. The greater shame is that you libel is constantly tolerated.

[Gman]

Jacs faith and the way I'm conveying it is completely the opposite. He believes that any commandment given to us by G-d is automatically legalism.. He believes that the Bible is legalism.

That's absolutely absurd. It's ridiculous how much you lie about what I believe. And that's really all it is. Lying. It's despicable, but I've come to expect nothing else from you. The greater shame is that you libel is constantly tolerated.

Jac I have never witnessed someone's theology such as yourself that is completely TERRIFIED whenever confronted with following G-d commandments. Following G-d's commandments are not legalistic rubbish as your wacky free grace theology proposes.

Please keep me away from your "free grace" demonic influence.. It's repulsive to me.

[Jac3510]

Jac I have never witnessed someone's theology such as yourself that is completely TERRIFIED whenever confronted with following G-d commandments. Following G-d's commandments are not legalistic rubbish as your wacky free grace theology proposes.

More lies and libel. Since you want to be under the law, here's one for you: Exod 20:16, "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Please keep me away from your "free grace" demonic influence.. It's repulsive to me.

Matt 12:37. You know who callings the gospel demonic, right?

And again, the fact that a board administrator is so hateful in his speech? Wow. Just wow. It would be amazing if it were not so typical of you.

[Gman]

More lies and libel. Since you want to be under the law, here's one for you: Exod 20:16, "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor."

I would rather live under G-d's law than the "free grace" demonic law.

Matt 12:37. You know who callings the gospel demonic? Satan.

Jac.. If your belief system separates the believer from G-d's commandments then you are not teaching the Gospel. Beware of that...

[Jac3510]

Okay, G. As I said, Matt 12:37. You've lied about what I believe REPEATEDLY, and you've called the gospel demonic. There's absolutely nothing left to say between the two of us. Say whatever you like, but say it for other readers' benefit, because I won't see it. Rest assured, that I won't see a single one of your posts anymore. We're done.

[Gman]

Okay, G. As I said, Matt 12:37. You've lied about what I believe REPEATEDLY, and you've called the gospel demonic. There's absolutely nothing left to say between the two of us. Say whatever you like, but say it for other readers' benefit, because I won't see it. Rest assured, that I won't see a single one of your posts anymore. We're done.

Again.. You don't have the Gospel.. You are here to promote your "Free Grace" gospel which is devoid of any Biblical commandments given by G-d Almighty which you teach as legalism. Therefore you create your own morals and commandments given by your "free grace" which are SEPARATE of G-d's commandments.

[RickD]

Well, seeing this thread has taken a turn right down the crapper, it is now locked.

[Byblos]

Well, seeing this thread has taken a turn right down the crapper, it is now locked.

No it's not, not for me at least. You guys need to check our profiles (us old schoolers). I still have access to locked threads and ability to approve posts.

[RickD]

Well, seeing this thread has taken a turn right down the crapper, it is now locked.

No it's not, not for me at least. You guys need to check our profiles (us old schoolers). I still have access to locked threads and ability to approve posts.

That's because you're still a moderator. We just want you to think you're not. Byblos, it's kinda like the moderator mob. Once you join, there's only one way out...

Byblos, you could always just pretend you don't still have super moderator powers. Just "Clark Kent" it for a while. Then if the God and Science world needs you, you can hop in the phone booth and rescue us.

[Byblos]

Well, seeing this thread has taken a turn right down the crapper, it is now locked.

No it's not, not for me at least. You guys need to check our profiles (us old schoolers). I still have access to locked threads and ability to approve posts.

That's because you're still a moderator. We just want you to think you're not. Byblos, it's kinda like the moderator mob. Once you join, there's only one way out...

Byblos, you could always just pretend you don't still have super moderator powers. Just "Clark Kent" it for a while. Then if the God and Science world needs you, you can hop in the phone booth and rescue us.

Impossible. I've been kryptonited.

[RickD]

Well, seeing this thread has taken a turn right down the crapper, it is now locked.

No it's not, not for me at least. You guys need to check our profiles (us old schoolers). I still have access to locked threads and ability to approve posts.

That's because you're still a moderator. We just want you to think you're not. Byblos, it's kinda like the moderator mob. Once you join, there's only one way out...

Byblos, you could always just pretend you don't still have super moderator powers. Just "Clark Kent" it for a while. Then if the God and Science world needs you, you can hop in the phone booth and rescue us.

Impossible. I've been kryptonited.

I think "emasculated" is a better term.