Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:I'm going to ignore your other snide remarks as we're finally getting to the point.

Revolutionary wrote:In an infinite endless void where mass is neither created nor destroyed concerning the conservation of mass.... Mass and all it's physical properties display that it's always been there in one form or another. That simply means that within an infinite void, it embodies a perpetual/eternal nature.... The only way of displaying that it didn't always exist (seeing as the conservation of mass tells us otherwise) is if the arena that contains it (whatever form it might be) is not infinite.

That's a very nice assertion. Now all you have to do is show some evidence of it.

No I don't, which is precisely the point.... This entire discussion arose from someone claiming that you can't prove infinity, which in the logical world is not how it operates.... Infinity lacks the tangible, finite points by which we define everything else in existence, THAT is exactly what makes it infinite!
This is the most rudimentary, elementary, basic concepts to logical thinking surrounding our cosmos.... It's sensible, it's reasonable, it's intelligent; you have to prove a finite point because it's simply the only possible way it makes any sense whatsoever.

Rudimentary, elementary and basic.... Hopefully, I will not need to repeat this for the next four pages!

YOU need to prove a finite point, otherwise you've only proven your ability for conducting circular arguments and avoidance.... End of story!

Revolutionary wrote:

Byblos wrote:I'm going to ignore your other snide remarks as we're finally getting to the point.

Revolutionary wrote:In an infinite endless void where mass is neither created nor destroyed concerning the conservation of mass.... Mass and all it's physical properties display that it's always been there in one form or another. That simply means that within an infinite void, it embodies a perpetual/eternal nature.... The only way of displaying that it didn't always exist (seeing as the conservation of mass tells us otherwise) is if the arena that contains it (whatever form it might be) is not infinite.

That's a very nice assertion. Now all you have to do is show some evidence of it.

No I don't, which is precisely the point.... This entire discussion arose from someone claiming that you can't prove infinity, which in the logical world is not how it operates.... Infinity lacks the tangible, finite points by which we define everything else in existence, THAT is exactly what makes it infinite!
This is the most rudimentary, elementary, basic concepts to logical thinking surrounding our cosmos.... It's sensible, it's reasonable, it's intelligent; you have to prove a finite point because it's simply the only possible way it makes any sense whatsoever.

Rudimentary, elementary and basic.... Hopefully, I will not need to repeat this for the next four pages!

YOU need to prove a finite point, otherwise you've only proven your ability for conducting circular arguments and avoidance.... End of story!

Oh so is that your point? Well then we're all educated, thank you very much. To summarize, your point is to argue for an infinite void, full of indestructible mass (which applies only to closed systems, by the way, not to infinite ones), with no proof or evidence or theory of any kind as to where it came from, which at some point and for no apparent reason, said mass coalesces into a singularity and bang, here we are. Got it, thanks for the discussion.

I'll stick to science, thank you.

Byblos wrote:

Revolutionary wrote:

Byblos wrote:I'm going to ignore your other snide remarks as we're finally getting to the point.

Revolutionary wrote:In an infinite endless void where mass is neither created nor destroyed concerning the conservation of mass.... Mass and all it's physical properties display that it's always been there in one form or another. That simply means that within an infinite void, it embodies a perpetual/eternal nature.... The only way of displaying that it didn't always exist (seeing as the conservation of mass tells us otherwise) is if the arena that contains it (whatever form it might be) is not infinite.

That's a very nice assertion. Now all you have to do is show some evidence of it.

No I don't, which is precisely the point.... This entire discussion arose from someone claiming that you can't prove infinity, which in the logical world is not how it operates.... Infinity lacks the tangible, finite points by which we define everything else in existence, THAT is exactly what makes it infinite!
This is the most rudimentary, elementary, basic concepts to logical thinking surrounding our cosmos.... It's sensible, it's reasonable, it's intelligent; you have to prove a finite point because it's simply the only possible way it makes any sense whatsoever.

Rudimentary, elementary and basic.... Hopefully, I will not need to repeat this for the next four pages!

YOU need to prove a finite point, otherwise you've only proven your ability for conducting circular arguments and avoidance.... End of story!

Oh so is that your point? Well then we're all educated, thank you very much. To summarize, your point is to argue for an infinite void, full of indestructible mass (which applies only to closed systems, by the way, not to infinite ones), with no proof or evidence or theory of any kind as to where it came from, which at some point and for no apparent reason, said mass coalesces into a singularity and bang, here we are. Got it, thanks for the discussion.

I'll stick to science, thank you.

No, this is just you twisting everything I have said, projecting your own misconceptions, conducting circular arguments and avoidance and then claiming you are adhering to a science..... It is tiring, do you actually enjoy it?

Infinity doesn't contain an argument, there is no defined point to argue about; AGAIN, that is precisely what makes it infinite.... Where we CAN argue is when we begin grappling with finite points, I've practically begged you to display just one within this discussion.

Revolutionary wrote:Infinity doesn't contain an argument, there is no defined point to argue about; AGAIN, that is precisely what makes it infinite.... Where we CAN argue is when we begin grappling with finite points, I've practically begged you to display just one within this discussion.

Lol, there you have it folks, all you have to do is claim infinity then no argument or evidence or proof is required. You could be contrary to current inflationary models, proposed by such brilliant minds as Alan Gouth who is the father of inflationary theory, which postulates a beginning for every single type of universe one could think of. But I guess they missed this one.

Seriously rev, thank you for the entertainment.

Byblos wrote:

Revolutionary wrote:Infinity doesn't contain an argument, there is no defined point to argue about; AGAIN, that is precisely what makes it infinite.... Where we CAN argue is when we begin grappling with finite points, I've practically begged you to display just one within this discussion.

Lol, there you have it folks, all you have to do is claim infinity then no argument or evidence or proof is required. You could be contrary to current inflationary models, proposed by such brilliant minds as Alan Gouth who is the father of inflationary theory, which postulates a beginning for every single type of universe one could think of. But I guess they missed this one.

Seriously rev, thank you for the entertainment.

I pointed to a beginning to every universe as well, what's your point? Even a beginning to every universe doesn't need a creator if it's a perpetual state such as one that is synonymous with the conservation of mass ..... We've exhausted that already

It's not simply claiming infinity, which you should know by now.... It's infinite when there are no finite points to prove otherwise, THAT is the very definition of infinity folks.

Round and round and round it goes, not me directing it.

Revolutionary wrote:And here we are right back to the very thing I posted pages and pages ago.....

Revolutionary wrote:Let me explain something about the world of logic..... You don't define infinity, infinity does not contain the finite tangible points by which we give everything else definition.... When it lacks these defining points, that's when we know it's infinite.

All fields of science and logic do not place the burden on proving infinity for very obvious reasons, they place the burden on proving a finite point which shows that it is not.
This is how infinity operates in the world of science and logic!

So, where are these finite points?

And there it is again, right back to the beginning

Do you think you're going to bury me in circular arguments and avoidance until I give up, or are you hoping someone will lock down the thread to simply hide it away....

Seriously, I can't come up with any other explanation of the ridiculousness going on here

Revolutionary wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Revolutionary wrote:Infinity doesn't contain an argument, there is no defined point to argue about; AGAIN, that is precisely what makes it infinite.... Where we CAN argue is when we begin grappling with finite points, I've practically begged you to display just one within this discussion.

Lol, there you have it folks, all you have to do is claim infinity then no argument or evidence or proof is required. You could be contrary to current inflationary models, proposed by such brilliant minds as Alan Gouth who is the father of inflationary theory, which postulates a beginning for every single type of universe one could think of. But I guess they missed this one.

Seriously rev, thank you for the entertainment.

I pointed to a beginning to every universe as well, what's your point? Even a beginning to every universe doesn't need a creator if it's a perpetual state such as one that is synonymous with the conservation of mass ..... We've exhausted that already

It's not simply claiming infinity, which you should know by now.... It's infinite when there are no finite points to prove otherwise, THAT is the very definition of infinity folks.

Round and round and round it goes, not me directing it.

The law of conservation of mass applies to closed, not open systems, and certainly not to infinite voids. Have you published your theory in any scientific journals? Why don't you present it to Arvind Borde, Alexander Vilenkin, and Alan Guth, and see what they have to say about it.

Byblos wrote:

Revolutionary wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Revolutionary wrote:Infinity doesn't contain an argument, there is no defined point to argue about; AGAIN, that is precisely what makes it infinite.... Where we CAN argue is when we begin grappling with finite points, I've practically begged you to display just one within this discussion.

Lol, there you have it folks, all you have to do is claim infinity then no argument or evidence or proof is required. You could be contrary to current inflationary models, proposed by such brilliant minds as Alan Gouth who is the father of inflationary theory, which postulates a beginning for every single type of universe one could think of. But I guess they missed this one.

Seriously rev, thank you for the entertainment.

I pointed to a beginning to every universe as well, what's your point? Even a beginning to every universe doesn't need a creator if it's a perpetual state such as one that is synonymous with the conservation of mass ..... We've exhausted that already

It's not simply claiming infinity, which you should know by now.... It's infinite when there are no finite points to prove otherwise, THAT is the very definition of infinity folks.

Round and round and round it goes, not me directing it.

The law of conservation of mass applies to closed, not open systems, and certainly not to infinite voids. Have you published your theory in any scientific journals? Why don't you present it to Arvind Borde, Alexander Vilenkin, and Alan Guth, and see what they have to say about it.

You're not seeing a simple point, I gave you an example (postulate) of a 'closed' yet also infinite model....
Can you give me an example of a closed system vs an open system as it relates to the universe?
Then we will continue.... I hope.... A discussion.....

I am published yes, I will not share that information because anonymity is an important aspect of my life and what I choose to share on this board.

Rev wrote:
I am published yes, I will not share that information because anonymity is an important aspect of my life and what I choose to share on this board.

Just show us what you published, but change the name. That way we won't know it's you.

I would love to see some evidence for this "infinite void", I don't believe there is anything existing outside the universe, there is no time, no space, no matter, no nothing.................just God, an un-embodied mind.

I am reading through this at the moment if anyone is interested http://noetic.org/noetic/issue-two-sept ... s-forever/

Edit* it seems the source I was reading has now been removed from that website, how interesting....................

Revolutionary wrote: I can't even begin to fathom why God would need personal parts

Sorry my bad, parts is the wrong word, I meant attributes (God doesn't have parts, he just IS). God wouldn't create personal beings unless he is personal himself.

No really, was it your plan to jump in here, not respond to anything I have said; not understand the numerous times that I have said how infinity is a lack of finite points which have the only physical 'characteristics' to even begin defining; that it has never been the focus to define infinity beyond that lack of finite points, which nobody has been able to substantiate otherwise.... Have you bothered to understand that the lack of these defined finite points provide substantial evidence until someone can show otherwise?

I know infinite lacks finite point, God is infinite, he has no beginning and no end (eternal is probably a better word) and neither do his attributes have a beginning or end, they are infinite. So what you seem to be describing is some of nature of God, that he has no beginning and no end.

Was it your purpose to simply come on here and claim that I have failed, thinking you will gain any credibility in doing so?

No my purpose is to understand your position but so far you haven't really given it much substance.

The only credit you will receive for your actions is being an antagonist.... Do you think I'll fall for it?

Paranoid much?

BTW, take it to that thread that you have been reading and actually address something, it should be obvious that's where it belongs. This looks like you are trying to derail this thread and cover up the conversation going on here.... Makes me wonder why?

My post was a mistake/blunder on my part, however you have totally derailed my thread here, please explain to me how you are answering the topic I started.

Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I would love to see some evidence for this "infinite void", I don't believe there is anything existing outside the universe, there is no time, no space, no matter, no nothing.................just God, an un-embodied mind.

I am reading through this at the moment if anyone is interested http://noetic.org/noetic/issue-two-sept ... s-forever/

I indulge in thought quite a bit, not to prove anything but to merely expand it..... To me, the second we stop wondering and pushing it further and further is the moment we've lost our expression... Repeating words that have already been said and living a life that has already been lived, with only slight variations.... To me, infinity is a brilliance that I can't deny.

We take from the earth, consume of it... We perform ridiculous acts to obtain shiny trinkets and 'conveniences' soon to become landfill.... We're like a virus, a cancer, and it manifests in our physical form as well.

Every moment we spend should be composing the earth around us, every motion should be a well thought out work of art.... Money should be no object when it comes to the mind's ability to create. We don't need to chase ridiculous tokens around, we need to see our own beauty.

Imagine the inspiration available to the development of the mind if we began to set our own free to become such an expression..... Imagine entering a world where it was about expression and composition and you could spend lifetimes in your own 'backyard' and still not see all the nuances that had been created..... Imagine if you were told you could take anything that stirred your passion and become a part of it until you were ready to lead the way..... Imagine if you were told the passion you have stirred in others allows your expression to become grander than you could ever imagine because these young minds desire to learn from you and be a part of creating it.

We could begin that motion and realization right here, right now; to learn how to become that visionary.... But that's not what I wanted to discuss.... Imagine an infinite number of 'earths' when we leave this one here; available for every life to direct it's composition, to explore it's beauty and embellish upon it.... To get help and to help collaborate and explore other worlds as well.....

That is how I would love, and if someone told me this was possible, you wouldn't be able to stop me from giving all of myself to see it through.

But who am I? I'd imagine it would be far more loving and brilliant than I could ever dream up.

Revolutionary wrote:I indulge in thought quite a bit, not to prove anything but to merely expand it..... To me, the second we stop wondering and pushing it further and further is the moment we've lost our expression... Repeating words that have already been said and living a life that has already been lived, with only slight variations.... To me, infinity is a brilliance that I can't deny.

I totally agree the infinite is amazing and I also spend many hours in thought, pondering what it must be like for the infinite.

We take from the earth, consume of it... We perform ridiculous acts to obtain shiny trinkets and 'conveniences' soon to become landfill.... We're like a virus, a cancer, and it manifests in our physical form as well.

I also agree with this, God wants us focused on building relationships and loving one another and not just acquiring stuff.

Every moment we spend should be composing the earth around us, every motion should be a well thought out work of art.... Money should be no object when it comes to the mind's ability to create. We don't need to chase ridiculous tokens around, we need to see our own beauty.

This also I can agree with, the Bible tells us all these things.

Imagine the inspiration available to the development of the mind if we began to set our own free to become such an expression..... Imagine entering a world where it was about expression and composition and you could spend lifetimes in your own 'backyard' and still not see all the nuances that had been created..... Imagine if you were told you could take anything that stirred your passion and become a part of it until you were ready to lead the way..... Imagine if you were told the passion you have stirred in others allows your expression to become grander than you could ever imagine because these young minds desire to learn from you and be a part of creating it.

This is what I imagine it will be like to be in total commune with God and the creation.

We could begin that motion and realization right here, right now; to learn how to become that visionary....

We certainly can and Jesus has told us how too.

But that's not what I wanted to discuss.... Imagine an infinite number of 'earths' when we leave this one here; available for every life to direct it's composition, to explore it's beauty and embellish upon it.... To get help and to help collaborate and explore other worlds as well.....

This is how I imagine heaven, an endless creation for us to explore with God as our guide.

That is how I would love, and if someone told me this was possible, you wouldn't be able to stop me from giving all of myself to see it through.

Jesus (God) has told us this is all possible and has shown us how too, unfortunately it is us that is standing in the way.

But who am I? I'd imagine it would be far more loving and brilliant than I could ever dream up.

You are like me, a special creation, made by a loving infinite spirit. The mind of God is definitely more than anything that I could ever imagine and I find joy that one day I will be able to explore that mind more fully.

You know, I really don't think there is much difference between us, you believe in the infinite as do I, you are in wonder by it as am I, everything you have been saying has been talked about my theologians and philosophers for 1000's of years. The only difference I see is that you see a infinite void, impersonal and uncommunicative, where as I see a personal, loving, relational, creative being, who is interested in little old me in a very big way.

Dan