Evidence for God from Science

SkepticalSkeeter wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Do you, or do you not accept this definition? Or do you too believe in Atheist Christians too if say, for example, an infant is baptised at birth into the RCC?

The irony is that, you did not get a snarky emotion and condescending lecture, but rather Thad and I were able to agree on this definition. Then what do you do? You seem to get snarky and smack Thad for me/him being confused by your words. No wonder getting consensus is so daunting here when a definition is placed out, and then snatched away.

What on earth are you on about? I posted a dictionary definition that I found perfectly acceptable, and then Furstentum Liechtenstein replied that the dictionary definition was laughable, the only way to get an accurate definition was to pull it out of the Bible, and anyone who didn't do so was as ignorant as a mechanic without a cake pan, or some such. I also opted to stay completely out of your debate with Thad. Ease off the eggnog, sport. It's making your mind all fuzzy.

Look, you could have just quietly broke off... but since you've now pressed me here let's see who is the one not thinking clearly.

You tossed two different and contrary definitions around. The first one that would make many Atheists Christian (Google's).

This FL rejected this no doubt because it leads to such odd absurdities such as "Christian Atheist " in addition to ignoring Scripture (which ought to be quite a valid authority for many Christian issues don't ya think? More so than any bloody standard dictionary Google scraped from).

Now I respect some infant baptised Atheists may like self-describing themselves as a "Christian Atheist", but no doubt the far majority of Atheists out there would very much despise being associated as Christian in any way, shape or form.

But, nonetheless, you start taking jabs at FL and other Christians here, introducing the second Merriam-Webster definition that you also embraced (even though it contradicts your first definition!). This MW definition being: Christian : a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ

And then to put some icing on the cake, you get a little uptight with Thad for accepting your given MW definition, albeit in a paraphrased manner, but nonetheless the meaning is there, "follower of Christ".

Now I am puzzled what you believe "Christian" means. Especially since the two "dictionary" definitions you propose actually work against each other. But at least, I suppose, Thad and I came to a workable definition.

You keep your eggnog, and I'll get back to my beer. And if you don't like your feathers ruffled, then don't start ruffling the feathers of others.

Very much cheers to you.

Kurieuo wrote: Now I respect some infant baptized Atheists may like self-describing themselves as a "Christian Atheist", but no doubt the far majority of Atheists out there would very much despise being associated as Christian in any way, shape or form.

*Quickly raises hand* Quick post.

Um...that was me pointing out how the Roman Catholic Church would seem to view things. It had nothing to do with any definitions of who/what/etc was to be defined as Christian. ( OR actually atheists, for that matter.)

Again, I was just pointing out that once some one has been baptized into th Roman catholic Church, you're supposedly in there for good.

Also why i mentioned 'Apostasy' and 'Excommunication'.

Me thinks the speed of posts might be having people get their wires a tad crossed.

Much cheers to all.

Thadeyus wrote:Um...that was me pointing out how the Roman Catholic Church would seem to view things. It had nothing to do with any definitions of who/what/etc was to be defined as Christian. ( OR actually atheists, for that matter.)

You may have misunderstood the Catholic Church's position vis-a-vis infant baptism. While we profess one baptism for the forgiveness of sin (in other words the sacrament of baptism cannot be repeated), not all baptized are considered Christian since some may have become apostates.

Byblos wrote:You may have misunderstood the Catholic Church's position vis-a-vis infant baptism. While we profess one baptism for the forgiveness of sin (in other words the sacrament of baptism cannot be repeated), not all baptized are considered Christian since some may have become apostates.

*Nods* I did mention the 'Apostates' thing. It's been quite a few decades since school time.

Much cheers to all.

Kurieuo wrote:You tossed two different and contrary definitions around.

Good grief...

I suggested a definition. It was rejected by Furstentum Liechtenstein. I suggested a different definition. It was debated and eventually accepted by two people I wasn't talking to in a discussion that I opted not to join. Meanwhile Furstentum Liechtenstein stuck to his original position of "I have a definition of my own but I won't tell you what it is." Then you suddenly started yelling at me incoherently.

I still have no idea what you're on about, but I'd just as soon move on...

SkepticalSkeeter wrote:Good grief... I suggested a definition. It was rejected by Furstentum Liechtenstein. I suggested a different definition. It was debated and eventually accepted by two people I wasn't talking to in a discussion that I opted not to join. Meanwhile Furstentum Liechtenstein stuck to his original position of "I have a definition of my own but I won't tell you what it is."

I never said that I had ''a definition of my own'' of what constitutes a Christian. (To read exactly what I said, see page 5 of this thread; my post is the last one on that page.) Essentially, I told you that the definition of a Christian can be found in the Bible, to which you answered,

SkepticalSkeeter wrote:Either way, no, I'm not going to read the entire Bible just so that I can come back here and walk into your "No true Scotsman" argument. I have no trouble thinking on my own, and I don't see how learning to think like a Christian is going to make me any less dependent on others.

I never suggested that you ''learn to think like a Christian'' because that would be impossible. I certainly wasn't baiting you with ''No true Scotsman'' BS. I don't bait people; I'm forthright, I don't beat around the bush.

More than ever, I am convinced that you are just mouthing off the usual platitudes of modern atheists. Learn to think on your own, please! Read stuff by intelligent atheists (for example: Nathaniel Brandon, Will Durant, Leonard Piekoff) and avoid twisting the words of Christians in an attempt to make us look stupid.

You are forgiven. Carry on.

FL

Kurieuo wrote:Now I respect some infant baptised Atheists may like self-describing themselves as a "Christian Atheist", but no doubt the far majority of Atheists out there would very much despise being associated as Christian in any way, shape or form.

In some respects I find the term Christian Athiest helpful, or even the norm. In that, round these parts, atheism is largely a rejection of the Christian God. Discounting a few friends by far the majority of atheists I'm in contact with were already dismissive of other concepts of the divine and the leap to atheism was a rejection of specifically the Christian God. Christian athiest may also come into play when we are discussing people who, from a Christian pov have merely lost thier way, be it for a week or decades.

Western style Christianty seems to me one of the relgions in the world which is rather concentrated on logic, reason and evidence and thus accounts for much of the atheist reaction which demands evidence, reason & logic and finds little satisfaction with any evidence, reason or logic based explanations of the Christian position.

Guys,

I did start a thread on this for the express purpose of keeping the discussion on track.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 14&t=39034

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I never said that I had ''a definition of my own'' of what constitutes a Christian. (To read exactly what I said, see page 5 of this thread; my post is the last one on that page.) Essentially, I told you that the definition of a Christian can be found in the Bible...

Still on this, huh? Ok, fine.

If there's a definition of "Christian" in the Bible, you know what it is, and you prefer to use it in place of the definition in a dictionary then yeah, for the purposes of this conversation you have a definition of your own. And if you respond to my request for said definition with a bunch of nonsense about me needing to find it on my own lest I remain as ignorant as an organist without a trampoline, then no, for the purposes of this conversation you are most definitely not being forthright.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You are forgiven. Carry on.

When you forgive me for things that I didn't do it comes off as kinda passive-aggressive. I forgive you for that. (See?)

Can we move on now?

SkepticalSkeeter wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I never said that I had ''a definition of my own'' of what constitutes a Christian. (To read exactly what I said, see page 5 of this thread; my post is the last one on that page.) Essentially, I told you that the definition of a Christian can be found in the Bible...

Still on this, huh? Ok, fine.

If there's a definition of "Christian" in the Bible, you know what it is, and you prefer to use it in place of the definition in a dictionary then yeah, for the purposes of this conversation you have a definition of your own. And if you respond to my request for said definition with a bunch of nonsense about me needing to find it on my own lest I remain as ignorant as an organist without a trampoline, then no, for the purposes of this conversation you are most definitely not being forthright.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You are forgiven. Carry on.

When you forgive me for things that I didn't do it comes off as kinda passive-aggressive. I forgive you for that. (See?)

Can we move on now?

Still on this, huh.
As I mentioned, I have started a thread on this and provided a link. Discuss what defines a Christian until your blue in the face.

jlay wrote:

SkepticalSkeeter wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I never said that I had ''a definition of my own'' of what constitutes a Christian. (To read exactly what I said, see page 5 of this thread; my post is the last one on that page.) Essentially, I told you that the definition of a Christian can be found in the Bible...

Still on this, huh? Ok, fine.

If there's a definition of "Christian" in the Bible, you know what it is, and you prefer to use it in place of the definition in a dictionary then yeah, for the purposes of this conversation you have a definition of your own. And if you respond to my request for said definition with a bunch of nonsense about me needing to find it on my own lest I remain as ignorant as an organist without a trampoline, then no, for the purposes of this conversation you are most definitely not being forthright.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You are forgiven. Carry on.

When you forgive me for things that I didn't do it comes off as kinda passive-aggressive. I forgive you for that. (See?)

Can we move on now?

While we're all cynically discussing the definition of "Christian":

• athe-ism
  a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
  b : the doctrine that there is no deity
  
  Critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or divine beings. Unlike agnosticism, which leaves open the question of whether there is a God, atheism is a positive denial. It is rooted in an array of philosophical systems. Ancient Greek philosophers such as Democritus and Epicurus argued for it in the context of materialism. In the 18th century David Hume and Immanuel Kant, though not atheists, argued against traditional proofs for God's existence, making belief a matter of faith alone. Atheists such as Ludwig Feuerbach held that God was a projection of human ideals and that recognizing this fiction made self-realization possible. Marxism exemplified modern materialism. Beginning with Friedrich Nietzsche, existentialist atheism proclaimed the death of God and the human freedom to determine value and meaning. Logical positivism holds that propositions concerning the existence or nonexistence of God are nonsensical or meaningless.
  
  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Just adding something in regards to Kurieuo's post.

A-the-ism;

The non-belief in any deity.

The above best explains where my mind, at least, resides.

Thadeyus wrote:Just adding something in regards to Kurieuo's post.

A-the-ism;

The non-belief in any deity.

The above best explains where my mind, at least, resides.

What's that mean to you: non-belief in any deity?

Kurieuo wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:Just adding something in regards to Kurieuo's post.

A-the-ism;

The non-belief in any deity.

The above best explains where my mind, at least, resides.

What's that mean to you: non-belief in any deity?

Um...what I posted.

No beilef in any deity. Or plural, (Deities) if you like.

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:Just adding something in regards to Kurieuo's post.

A-the-ism;

The non-belief in any deity.

The above best explains where my mind, at least, resides.

What's that mean to you: non-belief in any deity?

Um...what I posted.

No beilef in any deity. Or plural, (Deities) if you like.

So you have no beliefs about God? Christian or otherwise?

I really wonder what "non-belief in" means.

For example, I believe in Christ, because I trust that Christ is the way to be saved from my deserved punishment from an all-righteous God.

To say that I have "non-belief in Christ" seems rather odd. But to say, "I do not believe Christ is God or as such saves" does make sense.

To use a different example. I believe fairies don't exist, but I do not have a non-belief in fairies. The latter seems odd.

So I really can't make sense of the definition you provide. I know you're trying to be careful, but do you mind restating the definition?