Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:

Bip: Now if someone knowingly rejects after knowing his word that is a different story . How can you reject what u never had a chance to know . Another classic example is a person that grows up in a fire and Brie stone church that teaches them that God is an angry tyrant that will vanquish you to hell for even the slightest sin. Is it this persons fault that he was taught the wrong understanding of God or his pastors or priests fault ?

Bippy, Romans 1 and 2 clearly show that ALL people have enough knowledge to know that God exists and that they can either reject God or want to know more beyond the basic things He has ALREADY shown them about Himself. They don't need to know about Jesus to reject God. They just don't know ALL about Him that they are rejecting. But Romans says THAT is enough to leave them without excuse. God honors ALL who seek Him, who want to know more! But pretending He doesn't exist, insisting that they can't know, that they don't want to know, avoiding Him, denying clear evidences of His existence - these are ALL forms of rejecting God. And when Paul talks of those doomed without the Gospel, it's instructive that He not once mentions their rejection of Christ as being the reason for their fate.

Philip I understand that fully , but I wasn't talking about atheists . I was talking about people that know God but grew up in another country with another faith , so I guess we do agree on this point

But as far as Nde's , they are used. Is toy to show evidence of the soul and afterlife , which the evidence is very strong for
Gary habermas basically said the same thing in his interview on skeptiko .

Audie wrote:SS, with regard to "Go with Christ instead", it depends on who is there.

Eternity with FL, bip, phil, jac or abc sounds like hell to.me.

Mwahhahahahahaha , imagine me being your ping pong opponent for all eternity ?

I did play the 1967 Indiana university ping pong champ in a tournament ....... In 1993 , and still lost lol

Bip: Mwahhahahahahaha , imagine me being your ping pong opponent for all eternity ?

I did play the 1967 Indiana university ping pong champ in a tournament ....... In 1993 , and still lost lol

Bip, I don't know about ping pong (I suck at it!), but it just occurred to me that heaven may be the first time we all get to meet up. Imagine THAT! All kidding and silliness aside, I sure hope Min will join us / will WANT to join us (of course, not for US) - she'll find that we're all likely a lot different than the mere wise guys she probably thinks we are.

Kurieuo wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Helluva lot of people is perhaps an understatement.Just like there is none but God who are good, likewise I think only God is not foolish.Thankfully God loves us fools anyway.

I have no clue about what you are rattling on about. The context of Ps 14:1 is clear: those who say there is no God are fools. The G is capitalized indicating that the deity referred to is the Real One, not Vishnu, or Allah or the Environment or

FL

I'm essentially agreeing with you, but going further.

Ps 14:1 says there is no one good, but Jesus said no one is good but God.
Ps 14:1 also says those who say there is no God are fools, but I think that all of us are fools except God.

*rattle* *rattle*

It seems to me that you are extrapolating out-of-context, like the Hassidim who need two sets of dinner plates because the Word says "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk". So, they don't put dairy and meat in the same plates, and think they must wait 6 hours after eating dairy before eating meat.

We are all lost, yes. we are all bad, yes, and none is good but God. We are not all fools because some of us know that God is. (I take it you mean fools in the human sense, in which case I agree with you.)

+ + +

Audie wrote:As you worship your "yec" god you may get to find out the virtues of false worship. Or the pitfalls. Get it? "Pit"? "Fall?"

Keep dancing around your totem pole, Chinadoll.

FL

The "I'm rubber, you're glue" defense, FL? Diabolically clever. But I dont do "totem poles".

And you, as a yec, have deliberately committed yourself to the worship of a false god.

A silly quip making it about someone else is more palatable than facing that, right?

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Helluva lot of people is perhaps an understatement.Just like there is none but God who are good, likewise I think only God is not foolish.Thankfully God loves us fools anyway.

I have no clue about what you are rattling on about. The context of Ps 14:1 is clear: those who say there is no God are fools. The G is capitalized indicating that the deity referred to is the Real One, not Vishnu, or Allah or the Environment or

FL

I'm essentially agreeing with you, but going further.

Ps 14:1 says there is no one good, but Jesus said no one is good but God.
Ps 14:1 also says those who say there is no God are fools, but I think that all of us are fools except God.

*rattle* *rattle*

It seems to me that you are extrapolating out-of-context, like the Hassidim who need two sets of dinner plates because the Word says "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk". So, they don't put dairy and meat in the same plates, and think they must wait 6 hours after eating dairy before eating meat.

That sounds like a good idea!
The two don't really mix well in my stomach.

FL wrote:We are all lost, yes. we are all bad, yes, and none is good but God. We are not all fools because some of us know that God is. (I take it you mean fools in the human sense, in which case I agree with you.)

I guess I had in mind 1 Cor 1:25.
Compared to God, well, we're quite foolish.

Anyway, I didn't mean to make a thing of it. Not really...

Philip wrote:

Bip: Mwahhahahahahaha , imagine me being your ping pong opponent for all eternity ?

I did play the 1967 Indiana university ping pong champ in a tournament ....... In 1993 , and still lost lol

Bip, I don't know about ping pong (I suck at it!), but it just occurred to me that heaven may be the first time we all get to meet up. Imagine THAT! All kidding and silliness aside, I sure hope Min will join us / will WANT to join us (of course, not for US) - she'll find that we're all likely a lot different than the mere wise guys she probably thinks we are.

I can do fine with "wise guys", what I didnt care for was your taking something I said, making it into something altogether different, and then jumping all over me, lots of bold font, for things you concocted.

There was no kidding or silliness involved. Harsh, mean spirited and ultimately only about your own issues.

As a modulator, I'd think your role in part at least would be to be fair minded.

You made no acknowledgement of my complaint about your post, take no responsibility for yourself. Imagine, as you would put it, THAT.

Sorry guys, watching Christianity in action here gives it very little appeal.

Audie wrote:

Philip wrote:

Bip: Mwahhahahahahaha , imagine me being your ping pong opponent for all eternity ?

I did play the 1967 Indiana university ping pong champ in a tournament ....... In 1993 , and still lost lol

Bip, I don't know about ping pong (I suck at it!), but it just occurred to me that heaven may be the first time we all get to meet up. Imagine THAT! All kidding and silliness aside, I sure hope Min will join us / will WANT to join us (of course, not for US) - she'll find that we're all likely a lot different than the mere wise guys she probably thinks we are.

I can do fine with "wise guys", what I didnt care for was your taking something I said, making it into something altogether different, and then jumping all over me, lots of bold font, for things you concocted.

There was no kidding or silliness involved. Harsh, mean spirited and ultimately only about your own issues.

As a modulator, I'd think your role in part at least would be to be fair minded.

You made no acknowledgement of my complaint about your post, take no responsibility for yourself. Imagine, as you would put it, THAT.

Sorry guys, watching Christianity in action here gives it very little appeal.

Audie,

Please stop making things up about Philip. He's not a modulator. He's a moderator.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:

Philip wrote:

Bip: Mwahhahahahahaha , imagine me being your ping pong opponent for all eternity ?

I did play the 1967 Indiana university ping pong champ in a tournament ....... In 1993 , and still lost lol

Bip, I don't know about ping pong (I suck at it!), but it just occurred to me that heaven may be the first time we all get to meet up. Imagine THAT! All kidding and silliness aside, I sure hope Min will join us / will WANT to join us (of course, not for US) - she'll find that we're all likely a lot different than the mere wise guys she probably thinks we are.

I can do fine with "wise guys", what I didnt care for was your taking something I said, making it into something altogether different, and then jumping all over me, lots of bold font, for things you concocted.

There was no kidding or silliness involved. Harsh, mean spirited and ultimately only about your own issues.

As a modulator, I'd think your role in part at least would be to be fair minded.

You made no acknowledgement of my complaint about your post, take no responsibility for yourself. Imagine, as you would put it, THAT.

Sorry guys, watching Christianity in action here gives it very little appeal.

Audie,

Please stop making things up about Philip. He's not a modulator. He's a moderator.

HA! IF he is, then WHERE is his stinkin' badge?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

The issue isn't "how" dead a person is when they have an NDE, the issue is if there is NO brain activity at all, then there can be no hallucinations or projected illusions.

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue isn't "how" dead a person is when they have an NDE, the issue is if there is NO brain activity at all, then there can be no hallucinations or projected illusions.

That sounds reasonable. Is it also reasonable to think that there is much still not known about neurophysiology?

No detectable activity is not necessarily the same as no activity.

They were on NPR the other day, something about a guy who was thought to be in a vegetative state..you know, brain activity and all.. and when he did come out of the coma, he said something about what a torture it had been to have had Barney the dinosaur on the tv playing constantly. About hearing his mother say she wished he'd just g o ahead and die.

I think its way premature to say "no brain activity".

With regard to "how dead" there is no more a bright line distinction between alive and dead than there is between day and night.

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue isn't "how" dead a person is when they have an NDE, the issue is if there is NO brain activity at all, then there can be no hallucinations or projected illusions.

That sounds reasonable. Is it also reasonable to think that there is much still not known about neurophysiology?

No detectable activity is not necessarily the same as no activity.

They were on NPR the other day, something about a guy who was thought to be in a vegetative state..you know, brain activity and all.. and when he did come out of the coma, he said something about what a torture it had been to have had Barney the dinosaur on the tv playing constantly. About hearing his mother say she wished he'd just g o ahead and die.

I think its way premature to say "no brain activity".

With regard to "how dead" there is no more a bright line distinction between alive and dead than there is between day and night.

True, there is much we still need to understand about the brain.
That said we do KNOW that if there is no brain activity, and by that I mean no bio-electrical activity, then there can be no neuron activity and if there is no neuron activity then, well, the brain is NOT working.

Vegetative state is, typically, NOT viewed as no brain activity but as no conscious activity.

A persistent vegetative state is a disorder of consciousness in which patients with severe brain damage are in a state of partial arousal rather than true awareness. It is a diagnosis of some uncertainty in that it deals with a syndrome.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue isn't "how" dead a person is when they have an NDE, the issue is if there is NO brain activity at all, then there can be no hallucinations or projected illusions.

That sounds reasonable. Is it also reasonable to think that there is much still not known about neurophysiology?

No detectable activity is not necessarily the same as no activity.

They were on NPR the other day, something about a guy who was thought to be in a vegetative state..you know, brain activity and all.. and when he did come out of the coma, he said something about what a torture it had been to have had Barney the dinosaur on the tv playing constantly. About hearing his mother say she wished he'd just g o ahead and die.

I think its way premature to say "no brain activity".

With regard to "how dead" there is no more a bright line distinction between alive and dead than there is between day and night.

True, there is much we still need to understand about the brain.
That said we do KNOW that if there is no brain activity, and by that I mean no bio-electrical activity, then there can be no neuron activity and if there is no neuron activity then, well, the brain is NOT working.

Vegetative state is, typically, NOT viewed as no brain activity but as no conscious activity.

A persistent vegetative state is a disorder of consciousness in which patients with severe brain damage are in a state of partial arousal rather than true awareness. It is a diagnosis of some uncertainty in that it deals with a syndrome.

But we dont know that there is no brain activity. The KISS solution on what the NDE is a about is that there is in fact brain activity.

Note your words there where you said about how things are typically viewed and an example of that view being incorrect.

Audie,
We do KNOW what constitutes brain activity, we do KNOW what is needed for there to be brain activity.
The KISS solution to NDE with no brain activity is not to say that there was brain activity BUT that no one realized it or that, somehow, it wasn't measured.
There is not simple about stating that there is brain activity when every instrument we have says there isn't because that means we have buried HOW MANY people because those very instruments said they had none?

Looks like you are grasping at straws trying to hold on to a view that is not sustained by evidence.


My comment on the vegetative state being viewed as typically one in which there is no conscious activity means just that, that a typical vegetative state is one in which a person has no consious activity BUT there brain is still active. A non-typical one is where the person has PARTIAL conscious activity, as the definition of vegetative state I posted shows.

Well nobody knows, and motives for non objectivity are not limited to any one pov.