When Did Adam Live?

[abelcainsbrother]

If you like 5000-6000 years ago, you'll probably like this....

As I've mentioned throughout this thread I am becoming more and more convinced that the historic Adam and Eve did live sometime around 5000 - 6000 BC. However, I do also subscribe to the standard scientific age of the universe of around 16 billion years.

When I started to consider the possibility that Genesis 1 and 2 were chronologically sequential instead of presuming that Genesis 2 was a recapitulation of Genesis 1 day 6, I realized that with the sequential model there are no internal Scriptural chronological indicators for the events that occurred between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 2:4.
This means that Scripture tells us nothing about when "God created the heavens and the earth" in Genesis 1:1, or even when "God created mankind in his image" in Genesis 1:26-27.

Scripture's internal chronological indicators begin with the appearance of the historical Adam in Genesis 2:5 in conjunction with Adam's presence in the geneological records in Genesis 5. And as I've noted before, Scripture's geneologies and extrascriptural Mesopotamian history both place the historical Adam in Mesopotamia somewhere around 5000 - 6000 BC.

So here are some key time frames that I am currently working with:
Genesis 1:1 - God creates the heavens and the earth (The Big Bang) - Around 16 billion years ago
Genesis 1:26-27 - God creates mankind in his image - there are two possibilities I'm considering
- The appearance of anatomically modern humans (species homo sapiens sapiens) - 150,000 - 200,000 years ago
- The appearance of behaviorally modern humans - 50,000 - 70,000 years ago
Genesis 2:15 - God places the historical Adam in the Garden of Eden - 5,000 - 6,000 BC

So that's where I'm currently at regarding the timing for some of the key events of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

I really think what messes a lot of people up is uniformitarianism but I can tell you just because the universe has been here for 16 billion years does not mean all things have gone on continually since the beginning of the creation and I believe when we reject uniformitarianism like scripture tells us to we have a much better understanding of God's word.Why must we accept uniformitarianism just because the earth is billions of years old?The only reason to is because of evolution.

[DBowling]

I really think what messes a lot of people up is uniformitarianism but I can tell you just because the universe has been here for 16 billion years does not mean all things have gone on continually since the beginning of the creation and I believe when we reject uniformitarianism like scripture tells us to we have a much better understanding of God's word.Why must we accept uniformitarianism just because the earth is billions of years old?The only reason to is because of evolution.

A couple of comments:
1. Nowhere does Scripture tell us to reject uniformitarianism, nor does Scripture indicate that God has changed the natural laws that he ordained since the beginning of creation... (that is a misrepresentation of 2 Peter 3:4-5)
2. Evolution is not the only reason for a scientific belief in billions of years. In fact the data supporting a 16 billion year old universe comes from multiple scientific disciplines... some of which have nothing at all to do with evolution. (See Chapter 9: Scientific Evidences for the Universe's Age - Creation and Time by Hugh Ross)
Another evolution 'myth' is that a 16 billion year old universe is somehow an adequate enabler for naturalistic evolution. The truth of the matter is... it's not. Macroevolution through random mutation and natural selection alone is impossible in a 6,000 year old universe and it is impossible in a 16 billion year old universe. 16 billion years is not adequate time to enable an impossible process.

It is God and God alone who created and ordained the laws of the universe. And there is no Scriptural evidence to support the assertion that God has changed the laws that he established at the beginning of creation.

[abelcainsbrother]

I really think what messes a lot of people up is uniformitarianism but I can tell you just because the universe has been here for 16 billion years does not mean all things have gone on continually since the beginning of the creation and I believe when we reject uniformitarianism like scripture tells us to we have a much better understanding of God's word.Why must we accept uniformitarianism just because the earth is billions of years old?The only reason to is because of evolution.

A couple of comments:
1. Nowhere does Scripture tell us to reject uniformitarianism, nor does Scripture indicate that God has changed the natural laws that he ordained since the beginning of creation... (that is a misrepresentation of 2 Peter 3:4-5)
2. Evolution is not the only reason for a scientific belief in billions of years. In fact the data supporting a 16 billion year old universe comes from multiple scientific disciplines... some of which have nothing at all to do with evolution. (See Chapter 9: Scientific Evidences for the Universe's Age - Creation and Time by Hugh Ross)
Another evolution 'myth' is that a 16 billion year old universe is somehow an adequate enabler for naturalistic evolution. The truth of the matter is... it's not. Macroevolution through random mutation and natural selection alone is impossible in a 6,000 year old universe and it is impossible in a 16 billion year old universe. 16 billion years is not adequate time to enable an impossible process.

It is God and God alone who created and ordained the laws of the universe. And there is no Scriptural evidence to support the assertion that God has changed the laws that he established at the beginning of creation.

We agree a lot more than you may realize so let's discuss it in a respectful brother in Christ way.

Let's examine 2nd Peter 3:3-5 I don't know which translation you use but it doesn't seem to matter much.
2nd Peter 3:3-5 " Knowing the first,that there shall come in the last days scoffers\ mockers,walking after their own lusts,And saying,Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep,all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was,being overflowed with water perished:

OK First off we are taught exactly this in these last days " for since the fathers fell asleep\died all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" .We are taught today that we are related to the hominids that are our fathers who died millions of years ago first,but then we are taught that since the big bang all things have continually gone on since the beginning for billions of years and millions of years on this earth.This is uniformitarianism. But notice what Peter says after that,he says they are ignorant of a time when both the heavens that were of old and the earth were flooded which caused the former world to perish.Peter is saying they are ignorant of this and this means that all things have not gone on since the beginning.

However this does not mean the earth is young,it is not, as science shows,it does not make the universe young just because uniformitarianism is wrong.We are both old earth creationists.

Also we actually have the evidence in the earth the earth is millions of years old,the evidence does not lie.

I agree with you evolution is not the reason to believe in billions of years for it was discovered the earth was old by Christians before Charles Darwin wrote his book in 1859 ,the truth is Charles Darwin made or came up with evolution using the known scientific evidence of the time.Young earth creationists ignore this history and teach that millions of years is because of evolution.I'm not a YEC.

I also reject evolution as you seem to except that to me micro-evolution is just what plant and animal breeders were aware of long before Charles Darwin and dogs bread from wolves is a good example as we see variation in the genes but you still only have a dog,or like roses they can breed for specific traits but it is still a rose and so this has absolutely nothing to do with evolution or evidence for evolution as it is just reproduction with variety which is normal and nothing evolves.
Macro-evolution has never been demonstrated and this is what would actually prove or demonstrate life evolves.

This is why I do not look at the evidence in the earth from an evolution perspective but I see evidence for a lost world,a Lord of the rings" type world that existed on this earth that perished before God created this world we live in now since Adam and Eve.

This is what the evidence of a 3.5 billion year old earth prove,not evolution.I do not ignore the scientific evidence that shows the universe to be 16 billion years old,I just do not look at the evidence from an uniformitarianism and evolution point of view as the evidence proves something else true.

[DBowling]

We agree a lot more than you may realize so let's discuss it in a respectful brother in Christ way.

Well said

Let's examine 2nd Peter 3:3-5 I don't know which translation you use but it doesn't seem to matter much.

To get the complete context of the passage (which is extremely important) here's 2 Peter 3:3-9 in NIV
... you are correct translation is not an issue here ...

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The context of this passage is laid out in verse 4 "Where is this coming he promised?"

The phrase "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" has nothing to do with uniformitarianism. It is simply the observation by scoffers who do not believe that Jesus will return that 'life goes on as it always has'.

Jesus makes the same point in his Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. Jesus even relates his return to the time of the Flood just like Peter does here in 2 Peter 3.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus equivalent statement to Peter's "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" is shown in verse 38...
"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage"

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is not telling us to reject uniformitarianism...
He is telling us the same thing that Jesus tells us in Matthew 24.
"Be prepared for the return of Jesus"
Just because life goes on the way it always has with people eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, don't jump to the false conclusion that Jesus won't return. Be prepared for Jesus' return. Don't be surprised like the people in Noah's time who assumed that life would continue to go on the way it always had and were destroyed by the great Flood.

The message of 2 Peter 3 is not to reject uniformitarianism.
The message of 2 Peter 3 is to be prepared for the return of Jesus.

In Christ

[abelcainsbrother]

We agree a lot more than you may realize so let's discuss it in a respectful brother in Christ way.

Well said

Let's examine 2nd Peter 3:3-5 I don't know which translation you use but it doesn't seem to matter much.

To get the complete context of the passage (which is extremely important) here's 2 Peter 3:3-9 in NIV
... you are correct translation is not an issue here ...

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The context of this passage is laid out in verse 4 "Where is this coming he promised?"

The phrase "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" has nothing to do with uniformitarianism. It is simply the observation by scoffers who do not believe that Jesus will return that 'life goes on as it always has'.

Jesus makes the same point in his Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. Jesus even relates his return to the time of the Flood just like Peter does here in 2 Peter 3.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus equivalent statement to Peter's "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" is shown in verse 38...
"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage"

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is not telling us to reject uniformitarianism...
He is telling us the same thing that Jesus tells us in Matthew 24.
"Be prepared for the return of Jesus"
Just because life goes on the way it always has with people eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, don't jump to the false conclusion that Jesus won't return. Be prepared for Jesus' return. Don't be surprised like the people in Noah's time who assumed that life would continue to go on the way it always had and were destroyed by the great Flood.

The message of 2 Peter 3 is not to reject uniformitarianism.
The message of 2 Peter 3 is to be prepared for the return of Jesus.

In Christ

The context of this passage is laid out in verse 4 "Where is this coming he promised?"

The phrase "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" has nothing to do with uniformitarianism. It is simply the observation by scoffers who do not believe that Jesus will return that 'life goes on as it always has'.

What do we hear today from scoffers?I think is the question,we hear things like what was God doing for billions of years? You mean it took Jesus millions of years for God to send Jesus? And it is because of uniformitarianism that we hear this and this is why people scoff at us,it doesn't seem to make sense.

OK read the passage you posted again and ask yourself when was the earth formed out of water? Because the NIV is translated a little different but it still says "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."

So we must ask yourself when was the earth formed out of water? Was it after Noah's flood? No,in Noah's flood Noah stepped off the earth into the ark then stepped back out of the ark on to the same earth and the earth was not formed out of water,so Peter is describing something else,a time when the earth was formed out of water.

But also Peter says " By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."

Has this world we live in now went on continually since Adam and Eve? Yes,every Christian knows it has,so Peter cannot be talking about Noah's flood and is instead taking us back to Genesis 1 where the earth was formed out of water,if you read Genesis 1 you will see in verse 2 the earth is flooded and frozen and God says " Let there be light" on the first day,then on the 2nd day God divides the waters from the waters he places water both below and above the firmament,firmament being all three heavens or the cosmos.
Now in this context it makes sense when Peter says " By these waters also the world of that time wascdeluged and destroyed" but then goes on to say " By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." This is referring to the present heavens and earth since Adam and Eve,it is because of Adam and Eve that we are born into a fallen world so that we had to be redeemed by Jesus.

So it is clear to me there was a former world that perished for which we see the evidence of it in the earth that cannot be denied but then some time after the the former world perished God formed the earth out water in Genesis 1 to make and create this world we live in now.

As far as Matthew 24 I agree with Jesus that this world we live in now has went on continually since Adam and Eve including Noah's flood that Jesus refers to.

[DBowling]

To get the complete context of the passage (which is extremely important) here's 2 Peter 3:3-9

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What do we hear today from scoffers?I think is the question,we hear things like what was God doing for billions of years? You mean it took Jesus millions of years for God to send Jesus?

We hear all kinds of things from scoffers... but 2 Peter 3:4 gives us the context for the particular scoffing this passage is dealing with...
“Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?"

And we hear the same thing today from scoffers...
"It's been 2000 years and Jesus still hasn't returned..."
"We eat, drink, and get married... just like we always have"
"Life goes on... just like it always has"
"If Jesus hasn't returned by now, after 2000 years, why should we expect him to ever return?"

OK read the passage you posted again and ask yourself when was the earth formed out of water?

Genesis 1:9-10
I believe the continental land masses first began to appear around 2.7 billion years ago. Prior to that earth was almost totally covered by water.

But also Peter says " By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."

I believe this is clearly a reference to Noah's Flood.
And at the time of Noah (around 3,000 BC) the "world at that time", that was deluged and destroyed by water, was the land of Mesopotamia.

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is following the same basic pattern that his Rabbi, Jesus, followed when discussing the same topic in the Olivet Discourse.
The judgement of Noah's Flood is a representative type of the judgement that will accompany the return of Jesus.

I'll beat this dead horse again...
The message of 2 Peter 3 has nothing to do with uniformitarianism.
The message of 2 Peter 3 has everything to do with the return of Jesus.

"Jesus will return"
"Be prepared"
"Don't assume that 'life will go on like it always has' and be destroyed"

"Even so come, Lord Jesus"

[abelcainsbrother]

To get the complete context of the passage (which is extremely important) here's 2 Peter 3:3-9

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What do we hear today from scoffers?I think is the question,we hear things like what was God doing for billions of years? You mean it took Jesus millions of years for God to send Jesus?

We hear all kinds of things from scoffers... but 2 Peter 3:4 gives us the context for the particular scoffing this passage is dealing with...
“Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?"

And we hear the same thing today from scoffers...
"It's been 2000 years and Jesus still hasn't returned..."
"We eat, drink, and get married... just like we always have"
"Life goes on... just like it always has"
"If Jesus hasn't returned by now, after 2000 years, why should we expect him to ever return?"

OK read the passage you posted again and ask yourself when was the earth formed out of water?

Genesis 1:9-10
I believe the continental land masses first began to appear around 2.7 billion years ago. Prior to that earth was almost totally covered by water.

But also Peter says " By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."

I believe this is clearly a reference to Noah's Flood.
And at the time of Noah (around 3,000 BC) the "world at that time", that was deluged and destroyed by water, was the land of Mesopotamia.

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is following the same basic pattern that his Rabbi, Jesus, followed when discussing the same topic in the Olivet Discourse.
The judgement of Noah's Flood is a representative type of the judgement that will accompany the return of Jesus.

I'll beat this dead horse again...
The message of 2 Peter 3 has nothing to do with uniformitarianism.
The message of 2 Peter 3 has everything to do with the return of Jesus.

"Jesus will return"
"Be prepared"
"Don't assume that 'life will go on like it always has' and be destroyed"

"Even so come, Lord Jesus"

What makes you think I reject the coming of Jesus? And what makes you assume that I assume that life will go on like it always and be destroyed? I never said that or believe that as I know Jesus will return and not all life will be destroyed.I realize that I can't change your mind about 2nd Peter 3:3-5 not having to do with Noah's flood.

But what I think is being overlooked is how 2nd Peter 3:3-7 is a fulfilled bible prophecy happening right before our eyes like I explained about evolution and uniformitarianism,happening right before our eyes and yet we must ignore it all to believe Peter was talking about Noah's flood when based on a close reading reveals to us that it cannot be talking about Noah's flood.

And yet I agree with you the continental land masses first began to appear around 2.7 billion years ago. Prior to that earth was almost totally covered by water. Can you explain how Genesis 1:9-10 is not God forming the earth out of water like Peter said? And can you explain when the earth was formed after Noah's flood?
It seems to me that you are skimming over details for some reason but you accept uniformitarianism and I can't based on the details Peter gives. I don't understand how anybody can deny in these last days that we are taught that since the beginning all things have gone on continually since the beginning,and this is true,just like Peter said for the last days which is why I reject it.

I cannot accept uniformitarianism based on evolution.

[DBowling]

To get the complete context of the passage (which is extremely important) here's 2 Peter 3:3-9

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What makes you think I reject the coming of Jesus?

I don't...
In fact I have no reason to doubt that we both have the same hope in the return of Jesus

And yet I agree with you the continental land masses first began to appear around 2.7 billion years ago. Prior to that earth was almost totally covered by water. Can you explain how Genesis 1:9-10 is not God forming the earth out of water like Peter said?

As I said in my post above I do believe that 2 Peter 3:5 is referring to the events of Genesis 1:9-10

And can you explain when the earth was formed after Noah's flood?

I never claimed it was...

Based on your two questions I think you must have misunderstood part of my previous post.
Here's what I think Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3:5-6
- In 2 Peter 3:5, Peter is referring to the events described in Genesis 1:9-10... which I believe took place around 2.7 billion years ago
- In 2 Peter 3:6, Peter is referring to Noah's Flood (Genesis 6-9)... which I believe took place around 3,000 BC
Hope that clears things up

[abelcainsbrother]

To get the complete context of the passage (which is extremely important) here's 2 Peter 3:3-9

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What makes you think I reject the coming of Jesus?

I don't...
In fact I have no reason to doubt that we both have the same hope in the return of Jesus

And yet I agree with you the continental land masses first began to appear around 2.7 billion years ago. Prior to that earth was almost totally covered by water. Can you explain how Genesis 1:9-10 is not God forming the earth out of water like Peter said?

As I said in my post above I do believe that 2 Peter 3:5 is referring to the events of Genesis 1:9-10

And can you explain when the earth was formed after Noah's flood?

I never claimed it was...

Based on your two questions I think you must have misunderstood part of my previous post.
Here's what I think Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3:5-6
- In 2 Peter 3:5, Peter is referring to the events described in Genesis 1:9-10... which I believe took place around 2.7 billion years ago
- In 2 Peter 3:6, Peter is referring to Noah's Flood (Genesis 6-9)... which I believe took place around 3,000 BC
Hope that clears things up

Thanks for the discussion about this,we really don't disagree much.It comes down to uniformitarianism or not.

[DBowling]

If you like 5000-6000 years ago, you'll probably like this.... http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=53 ... the uniform timeline distinction of Adam.

It All Starts From Adam

The question we’re left with is, how long ago did the Big Bang creation occur? Was it, as the Bible might imply, fewer than 6,000 years, or was it the 14 billions of years that are accepted by the scientific community? The first thing we have to understand is the origin of the biblical calendar.

The biblical calendar age of the universe is calculated by adding up the generations since Adam. This reaches a number slightly under 6000 years. Additionally, there are six days (actually the biblical text gives 5 and a half days) from the creation of the universe to the creation of the first human, that is the first being with the soul of a human (not the first hominid, a being with human shape and intelligence, but lacking the soul of humanity, the neshama). We have a calendar that begins with Adam. The six pre-Adam days are separate from this. The Bible has two calendars, two clocks. This is no modern rationalization. The Talmud already discussed this 1600 years ago.

The reason the six pre-Adam days (Genesis 1:1 – 27) were taken out of the calendar is because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis. There the passage of each day is described as “There was evening and morning” with no relationship to human time. Once we come to the progeny of Adam, the flow of time is totally in human terms. Adam and Eve live 130 years before having Seth. Seth lives 105 years before having Enosh, etc. (Genesis chapter 5). From Adam forward, the flow of time is totally human-based, earth -based. But prior to that time, it’s an abstract concept: “Evening and morning.” It’s as if the Bible is looking at those events of Genesis One from a viewpoint other than the earth, a cosmic view of time. What might be the Biblical perception of the timing of those events prior to Adam relative to our earth-based measurements?

and the "timely" rest of the history of the universe and why.

Well I finally got a chance to read through the link in your post as well as the presentation you sent me.

There was some material there that I was familiar with, but there was also some interesting information that I had not seen before, so Thanks! I really appreciate the information.

I was very interested to find out that the idea that time is handled differently in Scripture before Adam than it is after Adam is a very ancient idea, that dates back over 1500 years. I may have some differences with the article on the precise nature of those differences, but it shows that the fundamental premise is not a new one.

One of the most fascinating aspects of the article dealt with nature of pre-adamic time. There was discussion in the article and the presentation regarding relativity, time dilation, and the effect of God's perspective which acts outside the time constraints of our universe. While I found this discussion interesting I just don't think it is necessary.

The issue at the center of the Genesis 1 debate is how long is a Genesis 1 day.
Two of the 'literal' definitions of the Hebrew 'yom' are:
1. 24 hours
2. A long but finite period of time

Both of these definitions are literal definitions, but the traditional interpretation for Genesis 1 has usually been 24 hours. And I am inclined to go with the traditional definition unless a good reason presents itself to examine the other literal definitions.

That said, I do believe that Genesis 2:4 presents an extremely persuasive reason to conclude that within the context of the Genesis creation account 'yom' does not mean 24 hours.

Here's the NASB translation of Genesis 2:4 (translation does matter in this case, and NASB is pretty 'literal')

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

Note that in Genesis 2:4 (which is within the immediate context of the Genesis 1 creation account) all six Genesis creation days are collectively referred to as one day. And if within the context of the Genesis creation account 6 days can equal 1 day, that tells us that the "24 hour" day interpretation 'yom' is excluded within that context.

Which brings us to the other 'literal' definition of 'yom'
"A long but finite period of time"

Once we realize that Genesis 2:4 tells us that the "days" of the Genesis 1 creation account are long but finite periods we don't have to try to jump through hoops to figure out how time dilation can make 24 hours into 14 billion years.

My .02

[EssentialSacrifice]

D wrote:
Which brings us to the other 'literal' definition of 'yom'
"A long but finite period of time"
Once we realize that Genesis 2:4 tells us that the "days" of the Genesis 1 creation account are long but finite periods we don't have to try to jump through hoops to figure out how time dilation can make 24 hours into 14 billion years.

I haven't done near the research you guys have in this topic, but I can see where Yom can work out. Is it possible both the Yom and dilation of time are both correct. It feels like the literal definition of Yom being a long but finite period of time fits on well with the dilation. The dilation theory simply gives Yom a more scientific, mathmatical definition in today's idea of time, not from a sundial but more towards the atomic clock.

[abelcainsbrother]

Genesis 2:4 " These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."

Here is how I see this first off I notice the words " made" and " create" which have two different meanings.When God creates,nothing is there and he creates it but when God made things the material is already there and he makes it.
Now in this context let's re-read this verse and we notice generations of the heavens and earth when they were created.This was in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,but then he also made the earth and the heavens that would be this present heavens and earth he made and Genesis 1 reflects this too.

This is often overlooked but from Genesis 1: 1 except in verse 1 where the word " create" is used the word " made" is used and all the way until verses 21-27 we see the word "made" when God is working on the earth and heavens and then we see the word "create" on the 5 th and 6 th day when God creates whales and man but before them days we only see the word " made".It is important when you read Genesis 1 to notice when the word " made" is used and the word " create" is used. Now read Genesis 1.

Now when you read Genesis 2:4 in this context the words " create" and " made" refer to specific things and the verse makes more sense,it does not make much sense if you think or assume the words " create" and " made" mean the same thing.

Now Genesis 2:4 makes more sense " These are the generations of the heavens and earth when they were created,in the day the LORD God made the earth and heavens."
This suggests there were generations of the heavens and earth God created then he made this earth and heavens.
So we already have an old heavens and earth by God's word.
So I think we can trust science when it tells us they are billions of years old. IMO it confirms God's word true.

If I wanted to I could really flesh this out more adding in science to flesh it out more but for now I won't as I think people should understand this first.

[abelcainsbrother]

Exodus 20:11 same thing,notice the words " create" and " made" " For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,the sea,and all that in them is,and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day,and hallowed it."

We see the word " made" and not " create" that refers to the six days of this heaven and earth.

[DBowling]

Here is how bara (create) and asah (make) are used in Genesis 1 and some of the other verses mentioned in the above posts.

Genesis 1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 In the beginning God created (bara) the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made (asah) the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made (asah) the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made (asah) the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21 God created (bara) the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25 God made (asah) the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make (asah) man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created (bara) man in His own image, in the image of God He created (bara) him; male and female He created (bara) them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made (asah) , and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created (bara) and made (asah ).

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created (bara) , in the day that the Lord God made (asah) earth and heaven.

Exodus 20:8-11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made (asah) the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

[jpbg33]

I don't have time to read the whole post but would like to pot a comment

Adam lived in the beginning of time 6 days after time as we know it started.

The bible says to let God be true and all men to be a liar

The bible is Gods word and it says that He created man on the 6th day, so as a Christian I am to consider anything other that that as a lie.

So Adam was created on day 6 which would be 6000 to 8000 years ago maybe a little longer depending on how long that him and Eve were in the Garden.