Christians: Would you be pro-gay if you weren't a christian?

[Philip]

This is true: whether Sin A, B, C or Z - they are all sin. And we all have "letters" of the alphabet correlating to our favorite sins. Just don't ever try to justify ANY of them by asserting "God made me this way, and so my inclinations for whatever sin are perfectly okay and natural." And also don't assert Christians aren't supposed to ever draw attention to condemn a particular sin. HOWEVER, focusing ONLY upon the sin, beyond when it may be appropriate to call attention to it, is typically counter-productive, particularly when dealing with non-Christians. We must use discernment and be motivated in love. But to pretend or completely ignore sinful behaviors is to also send a message that it's no big deal. So, there is a balance of when to and when not to draw attention to a sin.

When we recognize something as sinful, we are also giving witness that we bow in authority to God, Whose standard and sensibilities for our behavior are important to Him, and thus, to us. But to become hyper-focused on anyone's sin as opposed to having compassion and love for them is simply wrong. And yet, to see the immense harm an ongoing sin may be causing someone, and yet to act as if it is of no consequence, is far from loving. Again, there is a balance that requires discernment and the seeking of God's guidance, as to what we should say! As well as when we should say nothing about the sinful behavior. One can go to a harmful extreme, either way, without these.

[Storyteller]

Better to offend, challenge, and get the delivery wrong than to not try at all.

The reason we go this far is becaue it matters.

[melanie]

But Annette to get the delivery wrong is paramount to the message being heard at all.
It wasn't necessarily the message Jesus had, as prolific as it was, but it was the manner in which he delivered it. It was the wisdom, Grace, love and mercy that made people flock and listen.
He was criticised, mocked and ridiculed for the fact that He preached to the sinners. By preached I mean, He hung out with them and called them His friends. The religious elite shunned Jesus because He dared see people devoid of the religious condemnation but saw past their sin and loved them first. By loving them, He was able to preach to them.

That is why I have stated before the church as it stands has put the horse before the cart.

When we speak of homosexuals, theological arguments are put forward but we are talking about people.
We are talking about children.
We are talking about teenagers.
And we are talking about Christians.
Who are hurting, they are confused. They are being shunned by their families, their church, and their safe places.
They learn very early to lie or flee usually into the gay community or conform (not authentically) or to die.
That sounds very hyperbolic but homosexual youth are committing suicide at an alarming rate, with stats rising within the Christian community.
I want those kids within the church.
I don't want them being lost without Christ because they are dejected and embraced by a gay community that teaches them Christ and homosexuality are incompatible which by all the research I have done I don't really blame them.
There are countless homosexual Christians.
A whole community that perhaps we are unaware of.
They exist.

Do they not know what the church thinks of them?
Has their sin not been pointed out and used to define the embodiment of their identity?
They live it everyday.
They struggle with it everyday.
They are challenged on their Christianity and thier salvation constantly by the church that never quits to lovingly remind them they are an abomination.

There is a whole faction within the Christian gay community that identifies as side A, or side B.
Side A thinking that thier sexual orientation is not a sin and welcomes gay marriage under the sanctity of God and side B remaining celibate but still identifying as gay.
All the while they are trying to remain faithful to God and struggling with thier sexuality.
They know that regardless of what position they hold what is thought of them, Within mainstream Christianity. They have lived through struggles, condemnation, humiliation, ostracism and inner spiritual battles that makes our struggles often pale in comparison.
But they persevere. They hold strong to their faith.
Against a church that often rejects them and a gay community that often ridicules them for standing strong in the Lord.

Thats faith.
To hold strong inspite and despite the fiercest opposition from all sides, but to remain a believer in Jesus.

This topic is personal to me.
I have a gay nephew.
Whom I adore.
I watched him being picked on and bashed and ostracised in school. Long before he indentified as gay. I knew he was different.
As did his mother. But she has an idiotic partner that called him a [homosexual] and a queer. He was 12.
I had him cry on my shoulder due to being bullied so badly and tell me that he would never fit in.
I promised that child that I would love and protect and cherish and accept him always without question. That he was so wonderful and awesomely beautiful exactly the way he was.
At the time I suspected he may be gay but I couldn't be sure.
His mum found his journal that had loads of thoughts of suicide and self hatred.

My nephew is now 19. And recently came here on holiday.
We spoke long into the night of God, Religion, existence, Jesus, spirituality and the ultimate purpose of life.
My focus was to tell Him how loved and cherished he was.
We didn't speak of his sexuality because when your nephew is sitting infront of you, it's not about a theological perspective but a beloved member of your family, a child of God, that needs to know the message of the Gospel. That he is loved. Beyond measure and by that love Christ died for him.
When he was younger he once told me, God hated him.

They know what the 'church' thinks of them.
My job as his Aunt and a Christian is to assure him he is loved.
When he secures himself in that love, God will work within him according to his will.
Challenge comes in many ways, the biggest challenge for many is not admitting they are sinful but realising how magnificently they are loved.
When that realisation comes then miracles happen.

[Kurieuo]

You've taken this full circle Melanie, but really, my last two replies to Neo-X more than adequately cover.

I'll just say here... If I lay down in the Sun and get burnt, it won't help rubbing healing creams and the like on if I continue to remain uncovered in the Sun. Such might afford me some relief and healing benefit, but unless I get out of the Sun I'll continue getting cooked.

I'd hope if I didn't see the Sun burning me, someone would tell me so that I suffer less down the track. Having them feel sympathy for me while they walk on by, such isn't going to do me much good. If they stop and bend down to compassionately give me refreshing cool drink before just departing without a word of my lobster red skin, such isn't really very compassionate or loving at all.

Better to warn me of the Sun and I'm being burnt. If I insist I'm alright, hold a mirror up to me so I can see. If I scream at you and yell at you to take a hike, I'M ALRIGHT!... imagine how frustrated you would feel if others then rushed to my side giving me nice cool drink while you're treated as the enemy, "Look, can't you see he's hot and hurt! Get lost will you!"

It is very disheartening. This is how I see God often feels with us, and indeed it captures how I feel about this whole issue. You love people your way Melanie, and I'll love them mine.

[melanie]

Indeed K.
Love manifests itself in differing ways.
Like with your example.
I have small children and older children.
With my youngsters I can dictate and apply 'sunscreen' as I wish.
Teenagers are different. Force becomes anti productive.
The lesson is being burnt.
That's life.
Despite our best intentions,
Sometimes they just have to work it out for themselves.
It may take one time for some kids, other kids they take being burnt multiple times before any message sinks in. It may take third degree burns, or a trip to the hospital.
It may take several third degree burns for some.
It may take scars.

But all we can do is teach them the importance of sunscreen.
Then they will be stubborn. Young. Know better. Ingnore. Burn and Scar.
Then eventually come back and teach their kids exactly what we taught them.
Not because they are supremely intelligent. But because they have lived, made mistakes and realised not through intelligence but through experience that maybe we were right.

People have the right to work out their sunscreen application and and the ultimate consequence that may prevail.
Otherwise what is the alternative.
Forcibly make them apply.
That does nothing to instill any real benefit.
Make them comply.
Then the real lesson is lost.
We need not be so afraid of letting people learn, grow and accept on their own terms.
Because forced conformity has a really shabby history of longevity and/or success

[Nessa]

This is how I see it.

There is our responsibility in telling the truth. And the other persons responsibility for what they do with it. Forcing anything upon another should not come into it.

Once we place the truth in another's hands, then it's up to them what they do with it.

I think of Ezekiel 3:18 and think there is an application to be made there.

If we with hold the truth in the name of love then we should not think we will not be made held accountable. We are accountable for telling the truth (in love).

What can happen if we dont do this is that they may come to believe a lie. They may take God's loving and accepting them one step too far. Enter pro gay churches and movements.

The church can have a fire and brimstone approach to issues like homosexuality but the other extreme is to just love and accept (not saying that this is what you are doing mel).

Let me give an example.
I had a friend who lived in a messy filthy disgusting house. I am not judging. It is a true fact.
As soon as you would go into the house, the smell would hit you. Mould everywhere. It was foul. It was the worse house I have ever been in. And I am not a clean freak either.

Now my friend would tell me how people were so mean to her. Say nasty things. No love, just judgement. Then she would tell me I was the only nice one.

So who was the most loving? Not me. I felt too awkward to say anything. Didnt want to be rude and unloving especially since so many people had hurt her feelings. Easier to be quiet. But she had kids and it was an extremely unhygienic place for them. The mould alone could do damage.

Our other friend had offered to come round and help clean. Now this made my friend feel very awkward and embarrassed but she could at least see some kindness I think. And to me that is telling her the truth in love. He looked for a way he could be loving while telling her the truth

God leaves the truth telling to us but its to be said in love. Also with Godly wisdom and insight.

I'm not sure this is actually my post. It's really long compared to my usual ones

[PaulSacramento]

Jesus loved His followers, deeply BUT he had no problem in rebuking them when they did or said things that were wrong or not in the best interest of others.

[RickD]

Jesus loved His followers, deeply BUT he had no problem in rebuking them when they did or said things that were wrong or not in the best interest of others.

Yes Paul. Good point.

Jesus found no one to judge the woman caught in adultery, because they all had sinned.

But let's not forget that Jesus also told the woman to go and sin no more. He didn't tell the woman it was ok to commit adultery because she had a rough childhood, was abused by her father, or was born with an addictive personality.

So, while we can certainly empathize with others, and shouldn't hypocritically judge them, we also need to warn them of their sin.

Sugar coating sin is never a good idea.

[Philip]

Rick: Jesus found no one to judge the woman caught in adultery, because they all had sinned.

The point Rick is making is true. But I'd be very careful of using the Adulteri passage to make it - as it is likely not Scriptural.

[RickD]

Rick: Jesus found no one to judge the woman caught in adultery, because they all had sinned.

The point Rick is making is true. But I'd be very careful of using the Adulteri passage to make it - as it is likely not Scriptural.

Huh?

I'm not following you Philip.

[Philip]

Huh? I'm not following you Philip.

Rick, it's because - and I was shocked back when I learned of it - but this passage of John 8:1-11 is not found in any of the oldest manuscripts. Virtually all study Bibles have a footnote that references this, warning to not make any doctrinal understandings based upon it. A similar and footnoted issue is with the ending of the Gospel of Mark - handling snakes, drinking poison, etc. - not in the originals. This is why textual criticism is so important, as it reveals not only what was (with the highest possible certainty), in the originals, but also helps weed out any possible additions to what was in the originals. The enormous number and wealth of ancient manuscript copies, from around the world, makes this possible.

Yes, this one is a shocker, as it just sounds so JESUS-like.

D.A. Carson writes:

Despite the best efforts of Zane Hodges to prove that this narrative was originally part of John's Gospel, the evidence is against him, and modern English versions are right to rule it off from the rest of the text (NIV) or to relegate it to a footnote (RSV). These verses are present in most of the medieval Greek miniscule manuscripts, but they are absent from virtually all early Greek manuscripts that have come down to us, representing great diversity of textual traditions. The most notable exception is the Western uncial D, known for its independence in numerous other places. They are also missing from the earliest forms of the Syriac and Coptic Gospels, and from many Old Latin, Old Georgian and Armenian manuscripts. All the early church Fathers omit this narrative: in commenting on John, they pass immediately from John 7:52 to John 8:12. No Eastern Father cites the passage before the tenth century. Didymus the Blind (a fourth-century exegete from Alexandria) reports a variation on this narrative, not the narrative as we have it here. Moreover, a number of (later) manuscripts that include the narrative mark it off with asterisks or obeli, indicating hesitation as to its authenticity, while those that do include it display a rather high frequency of textual variants. Although most of the manuscripts that include the story place it here (i.e. at 7:53-8:11), some place it instead after Luke 21:38, and other witnesses variously place it after John 7:44, John 7:36 or John 21:25. The diversity of placement confirms the inauthenticity of the verses. Finally, even if someone should decide that the material is authentic, it would be very difficult to justify the view that the material is authentically Johannine: there are numerous expressions and constructions that are found nowhere in John, but which are characteristic of the Synoptic Gospels, Luke in particular."[/color]

Bruce Metzger weighs in: http://textualcriticism.scienceontheweb ... tzger.html

Sorry, back to the thread.

[melanie]

This is how I see it.

There is our responsibility in telling the truth. And the other persons responsibility for what they do with it. Forcing anything upon another should not come into it.

Once we place the truth in another's hands, then it's up to them what they do with it.

I think of Ezekiel 3:18 and think there is an application to be made there.

If we with hold the truth in the name of love then we should not think we will not be made held accountable. We are accountable for telling the truth (in love).

What can happen if we dont do this is that they may come to believe a lie. They may take God's loving and accepting them one step too far. Enter pro gay churches and movements.

The church can have a fire and brimstone approach to issues like homosexuality but the other extreme is to just love and accept (not saying that this is what you are doing mel).

Let me give an example.
I had a friend who lived in a messy filthy disgusting house. I am not judging. It is a true fact.
As soon as you would go into the house, the smell would hit you. Mould everywhere. It was foul. It was the worse house I have ever been in. And I am not a clean freak either.

Now my friend would tell me how people were so mean to her. Say nasty things. No love, just judgement. Then she would tell me I was the only nice one.

So who was the most loving? Not me. I felt too awkward to say anything. Didnt want to be rude and unloving especially since so many people had hurt her feelings. Easier to be quiet. But she had kids and it was an extremely unhygienic place for them. The mould alone could do damage.

Our other friend had offered to come round and help clean. Now this made my friend feel very awkward and embarrassed but she could at least see some kindness I think. And to me that is telling her the truth in love. He looked for a way he could be loving while telling her the truth

God leaves the truth telling to us but its to be said in love. Also with Godly wisdom and insight.

I'm not sure this is actually my post. It's really long compared to my usual ones

The thing is Ness. She already knows her house is a pig sty.
She told you how mean and judgmental people had been. It didn't make her clean it up. It would have made not an iota of a difference if you have been another person telling her it was unhygienic. This approach had obviously been tried many times by others and the result was feeling hurt, and continuing to live in a messy house. She would stop having those people over and alienate herself.
The reason people live like that is much more complicated than just being lazy. Functioning, together, balanced, whole people don't live like that. A house is our home. It's our comfort zone. If that is the manifestation of her outwardly world, I would like to know what's going on on a much deeper level.
I would have done what your friend did and offered to help. I wouldn't have said your house is filthy and I'm going to help you fix it. I would have worded it with tact and diplomacy. But I would also try and be a loving and insightful friend and try to work out what was going on internally and manifesting itself in this way. To take no pride in your home at all, may convey a person who has takes no pride in themselves. Really low self-esteem ect. Otherwise her house would be cleaned up, but resort back to how it was pretty quickly. (My mum had a friend who was much the same. She would go and clean it up but then it would go back to how it was.)
I say this also because my eldest sister had always been clean. Nothing extreme, but normal.
As she got more overweight, she got more depressed, more self loathing ect. Her home reflected it. It was really untidy and I had never seen that from her. The lower she sank, the worse her house got. Now that she has lost weight, dealing with the resulting depression, her house is back to being a place she takes pride in.

People are quick to look at the outside and make judgments. Think them lazy or whatever. Even offer to clean up the outside. But I think to be really loving is to take the time, to ask the questions and really listen to what is going on inside.
The most loving thing to do is to really care. Be kind. Listen and build up not knock down.

[Nessa]

This is how I see it.

There is our responsibility in telling the truth. And the other persons responsibility for what they do with it. Forcing anything upon another should not come into it.

Once we place the truth in another's hands, then it's up to them what they do with it.

I think of Ezekiel 3:18 and think there is an application to be made there.

If we with hold the truth in the name of love then we should not think we will not be made held accountable. We are accountable for telling the truth (in love).

What can happen if we dont do this is that they may come to believe a lie. They may take God's loving and accepting them one step too far. Enter pro gay churches and movements.

The church can have a fire and brimstone approach to issues like homosexuality but the other extreme is to just love and accept (not saying that this is what you are doing mel).

Let me give an example.
I had a friend who lived in a messy filthy disgusting house. I am not judging. It is a true fact.
As soon as you would go into the house, the smell would hit you. Mould everywhere. It was foul. It was the worse house I have ever been in. And I am not a clean freak either.

Now my friend would tell me how people were so mean to her. Say nasty things. No love, just judgement. Then she would tell me I was the only nice one.

So who was the most loving? Not me. I felt too awkward to say anything. Didnt want to be rude and unloving especially since so many people had hurt her feelings. Easier to be quiet. But she had kids and it was an extremely unhygienic place for them. The mould alone could do damage.

Our other friend had offered to come round and help clean. Now this made my friend feel very awkward and embarrassed but she could at least see some kindness I think. And to me that is telling her the truth in love. He looked for a way he could be loving while telling her the truth

God leaves the truth telling to us but its to be said in love. Also with Godly wisdom and insight.

I'm not sure this is actually my post. It's really long compared to my usual ones

The thing is Ness. She already knows her house is a pig sty.
She told you how mean and judgmental people had been. It didn't make her clean it up. It would have made not an iota of a difference if you have been another person telling her it was unhygienic. This approach had obviously been tried many times by others and the result was feeling hurt, and continuing to live in a messy house. She would stop having those people over and alienate herself.
The reason people live like that is much more complicated than just being lazy. Functioning, together, balanced, whole people don't live like that. A house is our home. It's our comfort zone. If that is the manifestation of her outwardly world, I would like to know what's going on on a much deeper level.
I would have done what your friend did and offered to help. I wouldn't have said your house is filthy and I'm going to help you fix it. I would have worded it with tact and diplomacy. But I would also try and be a loving and insightful friend and try to work out what was going on internally and manifesting itself in this way. To take no pride in your home at all, may convey a person who has takes no pride in themselves. Really low self-esteem ect. Otherwise her house would be cleaned up, but resort back to how it was pretty quickly. (My mum had a friend who was much the same. She would go and clean it up but then it would go back to how it was.)
I say this also because my eldest sister had always been clean. Nothing extreme, but normal.
As she got more overweight, she got more depressed, more self loathing ect. Her home reflected it. It was really untidy and I had never seen that from her. The lower she sank, the worse her house got. Now that she has lost weight, dealing with the resulting depression, her house is back to being a place she takes pride in.

People are quick to look at the outside and make judgments. Think them lazy or whatever. Even offer to clean up the outside. But I think to be really loving is to take the time, to ask the questions and really listen to what is going on inside.
The most loving thing to do is to really care. Be kind. Listen and build up not knock down.

In this situation she did not realise how bad her house was. She was in denial. She saw nothing wrong. Sure she knew it was messy but as she said 'No one is perfect' and that was what she would say to me often. It was her excuse.

I totally agree to get along side her and be a real friend but she needed the truth cos you know what happened? She got her kids taken away. The child protection services crashed her place and took them. I cant explain to you how bad it was. It may sound like I should be quiet and just take care of my own house but she needed the truth. As well as someone to just listen and try to understand what was going on inside of her like you say.

She needed actual help to tidy up. Theres a time to sit down and listen but there is a time to say
'Hey, as a friend please know I love you but this is not ok'

Her kid had serious health issues - life and death with breathing. And hes living in a place that is hazardous to his health. We need to take on board the seriousness of the situation. The gentle approach can be lethal.

[melanie]

That is actually really sad, clearly she had many issues.
I don't know how it works in NZ but my sister has been a child protection case worker for 20 years and a case manager for the last 5.
She has been to countless homes and removed over the years hundreds of children. She has told me before that a child is never removed because of the state of a house. It can be an indication of a break down in family structure, resulting in possible abuse. But when the court order for removal is taken to a magistrate, a really messy house isn't enough grounds. They would usually order for a clean up, several times before just taking away children. And then there would have to be other circumstances.
I'm quite sure your friend would have been warned by community services before removal, and there quite possibly were other factors involved.
Clearly a lady out of control in her life.

Even the friends who judged and criticised her, the ones who kept silent, the ones who offered to clean it up for her, made no difference in the end to her situation.
Sad story

[Nessa]

That is actually really sad, clearly she had many issues.
I don't know how it works in NZ but my sister has been a child protection case worker for 20 years and a case manager for the last 5.
She has been to countless homes and removed over the years hundreds of children. She has told me before that a child is never removed because of the state of a house. It can be an indication of a break down in family structure, resulting in possible abuse. But when the court order for removal is taken to a magistrate, a really messy house isn't enough grounds. They would usually order for a clean up, several times before just taking away children. And then there would have to be other circumstances.
I'm quite sure your friend would have been warned by community services before removal, and there quite possibly were other factors involved.
Clearly a lady out of control in her life.

Even the friends who judged and criticised her, the ones who kept silent, the ones who offered to clean it up for her, made no difference in the end to her situation.
Sad story

Her sister reported her neglect. Aint family grand. She was being a cow. It was not out of love. I knew the sister and lets just say she was a cow to me too.

She had no food in her cupboards I think which added to the kids being taken. Apparently she hadnt unpacked groceries or still needed to shop. Cant remember.

The truth is that it doesnt matter if it would help or not. We cant control the outcome. Or people's choices. But she needed the truth. That is our part to play. The truth being said in love. Not judgement.