Evidence for God from Science

Oh, and one more, this needs to be spelled out:

Matthew 23:3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men.

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.


Yet Matthew 6 says we are to not make a show of our works, or prayer, or charity. The people out there actually doing work for God aren't the ones who show evidence. They're the ones that hide the evidence!

SoCalExile wrote:

DBowling wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:Therefore humans can judge one another?

People do make personal judgements about one another... all the time
Is Donald really a conservative?
Is Bernie really a democrat?
People draw many different conclusions.
Sometimes those judgements are correct, sometimes they aren't.

It is within this context that Jesus says
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Here, Jesus recognizes that the world will make 'judgments' about his disciples based on how his disciples behave.

These judgments of the world have nothing to do with whether or not someone is actually a disciple.
These judgments of the world have to with whether the behavior of a person enables the world to recognize that person as a disciple of Christ.

In Christ

Good Lord, you've downright ignored the scripture I posted, to the point of cutting it out because it contradicts your point.

That's nonsense...
I looked up the Scriptures you posted... and then cut them out because they had nothing at all to do with the context or point I was making.

I assumed that your response was an indication that you were totally missing my point.
So my response to you spelled out my point in detail, and included a Scripture to help you understand my point.

Let me spell it out:
Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

If it makes you feel better I fully agree with everything in the Scripture you post above without reservation.

Better??

In Christ

DBowling wrote:

RickD wrote:DBowling,

Please define disciple. And, can one be a believer(be saved) without being a disciple?

I define disciple as a follower of Jesus
I define a believer as a person who has put their trust in Jesus.

I personally consider the two terms to be equivalent.
My dad considers 'disciple' to be a level of commitment beyond that of a believer.

In Christ

Ok, that's kinda what I thought. You tow the LS line on that.
I think that's another mistake you're making, which has an influence on how you're interpreting scripture. Your Dad is right. One becomes a believer when one trusts in Christ. Then, if one decides to follow Christ, live by the spirit, etc., then one begins to become a disciple of Christ.

I notice that a lot of the scripture you're quoting, and how you're interpreting it, shows you're conflating believer and disciple. It's a lot of the same verses that people use to claim the bible says one can lose salvation. Many of those I've spoken with who are against OSAS, also conflate believer and disciple, which really makes the bible seem like it contradicts itself.

Since you've said that someone is saved when he trusts Christ, I'm curious about how you'd answer a question. But first let me preface that by saying that it may be rare or even very rare, that once one trusts Christ, there's no change in that person. But we need to take our beliefs to their logical conclusion. So, that's why I'm saying that even if(BIG IF) someone has trusted Christ, but then doesn't grow as a disciple, he is still saved. With LS, once one trusts Christ, that isn't enough. There has to be some kind of fruit. LS wouldn't say that person lost salvation, but was never actually saved to begin with. Now, there's a real problem with that because it contradicts scripture. Scripture says, trust Christ, have eternal life. LS says the person lied, and never trusted Christ, because LS can't say the person lost salvation. Do you see the issue with that? It takes away "trusting Christ" as the means through which one is saved.



1) if someone trusts Christ for salvation, but through whatever circumstances, doesn't grow as a disciple(show good works), is that person STILL saved?

SoCalExile wrote:Oh, and one more, this needs to be spelled out:

Matthew 23:3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men.

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

And again I fully agree with everything Jesus says above without reservation.

Yet Matthew 6 says we are to not make a show of our works, or prayer, or charity. The people out there actually doing work for God aren't the ones who show evidence. They're the ones that hide the evidence!

That is not quite accurate. Jesus says that we are not to do works to to be seen by men for the purpose of drawing attention to ourselves and building ourselves up.

We are absolutely to go out into the world and show the world what a follower of Christ looks like to point to Christ and give glory to Christ.

In Christ

RickD wrote: 1) if someone trusts Christ for salvation, but through whatever circumstances, doesn't grow as a disciple(show good works), is that person STILL saved?

I think I answered a similar question earlier, but I'll try again (hopefully I give the same answer )
If someone puts their trust in Christ to save them from their sins, then they are saved... period. Nothing can change that.
And they are still saved even if they don't display what others might expect to see in the area of Spiritual growth.

However, the position of LS (and myself) is that if a person never performs any works at all (and this is a thing that only God can know for sure) it is an indicator that that person never put their trust in Christ, which means they never were regenerated and never received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Again works don't contribute to a person's salvation. They are the result of a person's salvation.

In Christ

I think that, at times, the issue may be one of how someone interprets salvation.
What I mean is this:
Salvation means to be saved, of course, but saved from who or what?

It isn't death since, of course, we all die ( that is the price of mortality).
Some say it is being saved from Hell and IF by that they mean the final judgment then yes, they are correct.

Our Faith in Christ, His Grace, saves us from judgment.

John 5:
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [f]the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So, if our salvation in Christ is salvation of judgment, judgment of what?
In what, of what, will those that do not have faith in Christ, be judged with/by?

Matthew tells us that by our OWN measure of how we judge others will we be judged.

So, as we see in the parable of Goat and Sheep and John and in Matthew, there are those that will not be judged ( believers that have put their faith in Christ) and those that WILL be judged ( those that have NOT put their faith in Christ) and those that will be judged will be judged by how THEY judge others and, as per the parable of Goats and Sheep, what the INTENT behind their deeds was AND to WHOM they did those things too ( or didn't do).

I think some people , perhaps subconsciously, can't put their faith 100% in what ANOTHER has done ( even Christ), they seem to NEED some way to "evaluate" if they are saved or at least if they are doing enough good to deserve being saved.

However, the position of LS (and myself) is that if a person never performs any works at all (and this is a thing that only God can know for sure) it is an indicator that that person never put their trust in Christ, which means they never were regenerated and never received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

And how on earth can anyone KNOW what a person has done? and more importantly, why?

PaulSacramento wrote:

However, the position of LS (and myself) is that if a person never performs any works at all (and this is a thing that only God can know for sure) it is an indicator that that person never put their trust in Christ, which means they never were regenerated and never received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

And how on earth can anyone KNOW what a person has done?

The most basic answer is a person can only know what they have experienced, observed, or been told.

and more importantly, why?

because that is how God created us

I don't think I understand what you are getting at with your second part.

I've already acknowledged that it is not the job of believers to judge other believers.
I have already acknowledged that God is the one who will judge the works of all men.
I've submitted that the behavior of believers is relevant in showing the world what it means to be a follower of Christ.

I think I've covered all the bases, but let me know what base you are trying to cover, and I'll give it a shot.

In Christ

PaulSacramento wrote: I think some people , perhaps subconsciously, can't put their faith 100% in what ANOTHER has done ( even Christ), they seem to NEED some way to "evaluate" if they are saved or at least if they are doing enough good to deserve being saved.

Perhaps... but that is not the stated position of LS.

Your comment does bring to mind a verse that may clarify things or possibly muddy them up even more
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

The interesting thing here is that Paul calls us to examine and test ourselves, not other believers.
Which is consistent with Jesus command to focus on the log in our eye before we worry about the splinter in the eye of our brother.

In Christ

I agree that we are to test ourselves, to evaluate ourselves and that is, quite possibly, the truest sign of the HS in us:
The understanding that the redemptive process is underway.
I just couldn't care less what anyone ELSE things about what I do.
See, I don't care if other people see me as charitable enough or loving enough or preaching enough.
I care if I AM loving enough to those I love, I care if I AM giving enough to those I KNOW need it and I care if Our Lord feels I am "preaching enough".
I care because the HS sekas to me and guides me and leads me on the path that HE has chosen for me.
That path is MINE, it isn't yours or anybody else's, it is mine.
It got me HERE and will take me THERE in MY time, in MY way.

See, I follow Christ, not man so man's view means very little to me.

I understand the need to set an example to others of "good christian behaviour" and agree that acts are crucial BUT I disagree that we can use them as a barometer of sorts to "measure" to what degree one has the HS.

I've already acknowledged that it is not the job of believers to judge other believers.
I have already acknowledged that God is the one who will judge the works of all men.
I've submitted that the behavior of believers is relevant in showing the world what it means to be a follower of Christ.

What acts can a believer so to show the world that he/she is a follower of Christ?
It can't be acts of charity or compassion because believers and nonbelievers alike can demonstrate those.
It can't be preaching door-to-door the word of God since Mormons and JW's do that and, well, their gospels is not Our Lords.
It can't be Taking care of those in need because believer and non-believers alike do that.
So, what are they?

DBowling wrote:

RickD wrote: 1) if someone trusts Christ for salvation, but through whatever circumstances, doesn't grow as a disciple(show good works), is that person STILL saved?

I think I answered a similar question earlier, but I'll try again (hopefully I give the same answer )
If someone puts their trust in Christ to save them from their sins, then they are saved... period. Nothing can change that.
And they are still saved even if they don't display what others might expect to see in the area of Spiritual growth.

However, the position of LS (and myself) is that if a person never performs any works at all (and this is a thing that only God can know for sure) it is an indicator that that person never put their trust in Christ, which means they never were regenerated and never received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Again works don't contribute to a person's salvation. They are the result of a person's salvation.

In Christ

You kinda danced around the answer. On one hand, you said if someone puts their trust in Christ, then they are saved...period.

And on the other hand, you said if someone never performs any works at all, it is an indicator that that person never put their trust in Christ, which means they never were regenerated and never received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1)When you say that if someone "puts" their trust in Christ, does "puts" have to be an ongoing thing? Or do you mean, that once someone trusts Christ once, he is saved?

2)I'm asking a specific question. Let's say that Joe was presented with the gospel. He immediately believed that Jesus Christ is God, Jesus was crucified and rose on the third day. And Jesus Christ's sacrifice atoned for the sins of the world. Joe realized that he is a sinner, and trusted in Christ's sacrifice for Joe's salvation. You'd agree that at the moment Joe trusted Christ, the Holy Spirit indwelt Joe, and he has eternal life? But after that, Joe went home, had no Believers around him to help Joe become a disciple for Christ. So, Joe goes on with his life without growing in Christ.

Years later Joe died. What was Joe's eternal destination?

PaulSacramento wrote:

I've already acknowledged that it is not the job of believers to judge other believers.
I have already acknowledged that God is the one who will judge the works of all men.
I've submitted that the behavior of believers is relevant in showing the world what it means to be a follower of Christ.

What acts can a believer so to show the world that he/she is a follower of Christ?

The most basic one is
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

In Christ

RickD wrote:

DBowling wrote:

RickD wrote: 1) if someone trusts Christ for salvation, but through whatever circumstances, doesn't grow as a disciple(show good works), is that person STILL saved?

I think I answered a similar question earlier, but I'll try again (hopefully I give the same answer )
If someone puts their trust in Christ to save them from their sins, then they are saved... period. Nothing can change that.
And they are still saved even if they don't display what others might expect to see in the area of Spiritual growth.

However, the position of LS (and myself) is that if a person never performs any works at all (and this is a thing that only God can know for sure) it is an indicator that that person never put their trust in Christ, which means they never were regenerated and never received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Again works don't contribute to a person's salvation. They are the result of a person's salvation.

In Christ

You kinda danced around the answer. On one hand, you said if someone puts their trust in Christ, then they are saved...period.

And on the other hand, you said if someone never performs any works at all, it is an indicator that that person never put their trust in Christ, which means they never were regenerated and never received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1)When you say that if someone "puts" their trust in Christ, does "puts" have to be an ongoing thing? Or do you mean, that once someone trusts Christ once, he is saved?

Yes... that is my position and the position of LS

2)I'm asking a specific question. Let's say that Joe was presented with the gospel. He immediately believed that Jesus Christ is God, Jesus was crucified and rose on the third day. And Jesus Christ's sacrifice atoned for the sins of the world. Joe realized that he is a sinner, and trusted in Christ's sacrifice for Joe's salvation. You'd agree that at the moment Joe trusted Christ, the Holy Spirit indwelt Joe, and he has eternal life? But after that, Joe went home, had no Believers around him to help Joe become a disciple for Christ. So, Joe goes on with his life without growing in Christ.

Years later Joe died. What was Joe's eternal destination?

Based on your description above Joe's eternal destination would be the new heaven/new earth.

in your scenario the keys are Joe trusted in Christ and Joe received the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Therefore, even though Joe had no external support, he had the Indwelling Holy Spirit to prod and guide him along in life.
And since Joe trusted in Christ IMHO that would make him a disciple of Christ by definition.

In Christ

DBowling wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

I've already acknowledged that it is not the job of believers to judge other believers.
I have already acknowledged that God is the one who will judge the works of all men.
I've submitted that the behavior of believers is relevant in showing the world what it means to be a follower of Christ.

What acts can a believer so to show the world that he/she is a follower of Christ?

The most basic one is
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

In Christ

So all people that love each other are in Christ?

See, that's the problem right there, isn't it?

Believers and non-believers alike can demonstrate the very things that only believers ,supposedly, demonstrate as signs of the HS.