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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:08 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:11 am
PaulSacramento wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:16 am
Kenny wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:39 pm
RickD wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:42 pm
Kenny wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:26 pm
If cells have always existed, I can see it as only a matter of time before they can join and evolve into an intelligent being.
Ken,

I'm curious...what do you think caused these eternally existing cells to change?
Again; all I can give you are guesses. Perhaps the expansion of the Singularity allowed them to change this way.
So, here is the thing.
You agree that the elements or properties of intelligence MUST have existed in the universe, correct?
They didn't just come from nowhere.
So the quantum singularity from which the universe expanded from, must have contained these elements, correct?
Something caused these elements to come together and "form" intelligence, correct?
This is where things end for me; I cannot assume something else caused these elements to come together, because then the question becomes how did this “something else” form intelligence; and being an atheist and all; I can’t presuppose it as God thus exempt from all logical rules cells and everything else must adhere to, so I have to admit to not having an answer
Where did you get 'God" from?
What do you mean by "God"?
Science, both observable an theoretical are leading us somewhere, to something, why resist?
And why would this "God" you are referring to be exempt from Logic ??

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:22 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:11 am
PaulSacramento wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:16 am
Kenny wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:39 pm
RickD wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:42 pm
Ken,

I'm curious...what do you think caused these eternally existing cells to change?
Again; all I can give you are guesses. Perhaps the expansion of the Singularity allowed them to change this way.
So, here is the thing.
You agree that the elements or properties of intelligence MUST have existed in the universe, correct?
They didn't just come from nowhere.
So the quantum singularity from which the universe expanded from, must have contained these elements, correct?
Something caused these elements to come together and "form" intelligence, correct?
This is where things end for me; I cannot assume something else caused these elements to come together, because then the question becomes how did this “something else” form intelligence; and being an atheist and all; I can’t presuppose it as God thus exempt from all logical rules cells and everything else must adhere to, so I have to admit to not having an answer
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:08 am Where did you get 'God" from?
You spoke of an eternally existing intelligent being; what else could you possibly be talking about???
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:08 am What do you mean by "God"?
Really??? C'mon! You jokin' right???
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:08 am Science, both observable an theoretical are leading us somewhere, to something, why resist?
If I were resisting something, it definitely wouldn't be science.
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:08 am And why would this "God" you are referring to be exempt from Logic ??
That's what I've been saying all along! Looks like we agree on something.

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:44 pm
by PaulSacramento
You spoke of an eternally existing intelligent being; what else could you possibly be talking about???
Indeed, Christians call something that is eternal, all powerful, all knowing and all present God, but what do YOU call it?

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:04 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:44 pm
You spoke of an eternally existing intelligent being; what else could you possibly be talking about???
Indeed, Christians call something that is eternal, all powerful, all knowing and all present God, but what do YOU call it?
If I met someone who were eternal, all powerful, knew everything, and present everywhere, how would I know they were, unless I was? Am I just supposed to just take their word for it?

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:38 pm
by Philip
Ken: If I met someone who were eternal, all powerful, knew everything, and present everywhere, how would I know they were, unless I was? Am I just supposed to just take their word for it?
:pound:

Oh, you’ll know!

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:46 pm
by Kurieuo
Kenny, I'm wondering, do you consider a cell to be life?

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:53 pm
by Kenny
Kurieuo wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:46 pm Kenny, I'm wondering, do you consider a cell to be life?
I guess so. Unless it's a dead cell; why do you ask?

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:59 pm
by Nicki
Kenny wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:15 pm
Philip wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:16 pm
Ken: "If cells have always existed, I can see it as only a matter of time before they can join and evolve into an intelligent being."
Ken, I love your casual use of the word "if." And a simple cell could not have evolved to become such. As at its most basic design and functionality, it is already MASSIVELY complex - more so than any machine man has ever built! ALL of it's components must be in place, at one time, for it to function as a cell. And, of course, as a biological component, the perfect conditions for the cell also had to pre-exist it. But the point is, a cell, the basis of all life, is already massively complex and works intelligently. And blind, random things can't produce such a thing. So, you're right back to what you believe blind, non-intelligent things can produce - or even have the potential to become - as even that first cell requires an unfathomable explanation of it not being created, designed, produced, and given just the right conditions to exist and live! That's one astounding and mathematically improbable "if."
Actually the "IF" I used was under the assumption of cells (plural) not cell (singular). Your response was under the assumption I was speaking of a single cell always existing.
Maybe I missed something, but why are you all talking about cells having always existed? Cells are part of living beings (or living beings in themselves), which are not supposed to have existed until a long time after the origin of the universe, right?

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:55 pm
by Kenny
Nicki wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:59 pm
Kenny wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:15 pm
Philip wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:16 pm
Ken: "If cells have always existed, I can see it as only a matter of time before they can join and evolve into an intelligent being."
Ken, I love your casual use of the word "if." And a simple cell could not have evolved to become such. As at its most basic design and functionality, it is already MASSIVELY complex - more so than any machine man has ever built! ALL of it's components must be in place, at one time, for it to function as a cell. And, of course, as a biological component, the perfect conditions for the cell also had to pre-exist it. But the point is, a cell, the basis of all life, is already massively complex and works intelligently. And blind, random things can't produce such a thing. So, you're right back to what you believe blind, non-intelligent things can produce - or even have the potential to become - as even that first cell requires an unfathomable explanation of it not being created, designed, produced, and given just the right conditions to exist and live! That's one astounding and mathematically improbable "if."
Actually the "IF" I used was under the assumption of cells (plural) not cell (singular). Your response was under the assumption I was speaking of a single cell always existing.
Maybe I missed something, but why are you all talking about cells having always existed? Cells are part of living beings (or living beings in themselves), which are not supposed to have existed until a long time after the origin of the universe, right?
We were just discussing the possibility of life always existing.

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:17 pm
by Kurieuo
Kenny wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:53 pm
Kurieuo wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:46 pm Kenny, I'm wondering, do you consider a cell to be life?
I guess so. Unless it's a dead cell; why do you ask?
Because if you cells are life, and you believe cells have always existed, then you also believe life has always existed. While there's much more to be had, it seems to me like you're not really too far away from also believing intelligence has always existed. I mean why not?

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:38 am
by Philip
K: Because if you cells are life, and you believe cells have always existed, then you also believe life has always existed. While there's much more to be had, it seems to me like you're not really too far away from also believing intelligence has always existed. I mean why not?
And THAT has been my recent point with Ken, as he's ventured to realizing there had to be something which is both eternal and intelligent, as what exists, even at its most elemental, is astonishingly complex and requires an intelligence. Now, he doesn't have to believe that is God, but it's a start to realizing that something with at least some of the attributes of God must exist. Of course, there are other evidences to consider, when one ponders the candidates and identity of the Source.

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:40 am
by Kenny
Kurieuo wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:17 pm
Kenny wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:53 pm
Kurieuo wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:46 pm Kenny, I'm wondering, do you consider a cell to be life?
I guess so. Unless it's a dead cell; why do you ask?
Because if you cells are life, and you believe cells have always existed, then you also believe life has always existed. While there's much more to be had, it seems to me like you're not really too far away from also believing intelligence has always existed. I mean why not?
You mean like intelligent cells within the singularity that expanded during the Big Bang? Yeah if cells existed within it, perhaps intelligent cells.

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:54 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:04 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:44 pm
You spoke of an eternally existing intelligent being; what else could you possibly be talking about???
Indeed, Christians call something that is eternal, all powerful, all knowing and all present God, but what do YOU call it?
If I met someone who were eternal, all powerful, knew everything, and present everywhere, how would I know they were, unless I was? Am I just supposed to just take their word for it?
Do you think that, IF you met an Omnipotent being you wouldn't know?

That aside, My question still stands, what would you call something ( a force, energy, whatever) that has always existed, that effects everything, all the time, that, without it, nothing would exist?

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:14 am
by Kenny
Kenny wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:04 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:44 pm
You spoke of an eternally existing intelligent being; what else could you possibly be talking about???
Indeed, Christians call something that is eternal, all powerful, all knowing and all present God, but what do YOU call it?
If I met someone who were eternal, all powerful, knew everything, and present everywhere, how would I know they were, unless I was? Am I just supposed to just take their word for it?
PaulSacramento wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:54 amDo you think that, IF you met an Omnipotent being you wouldn't know?
That is correct; I would have no way of knowing.
PaulSacramento wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:54 amThat aside, My question still stands, what would you call something ( a force, energy, whatever) that has always existed, that effects everything, all the time, that, without it, nothing would exist?
If it were only a force or energy, I would call it a force or energy. If it were intelligent and able to communicate with me, I would call it whatever it wants to be called.

Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:33 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:14 am
Kenny wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:04 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:44 pm
You spoke of an eternally existing intelligent being; what else could you possibly be talking about???
Indeed, Christians call something that is eternal, all powerful, all knowing and all present God, but what do YOU call it?
If I met someone who were eternal, all powerful, knew everything, and present everywhere, how would I know they were, unless I was? Am I just supposed to just take their word for it?
PaulSacramento wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:54 amDo you think that, IF you met an Omnipotent being you wouldn't know?
That is correct; I would have no way of knowing.
PaulSacramento wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:54 amThat aside, My question still stands, what would you call something ( a force, energy, whatever) that has always existed, that effects everything, all the time, that, without it, nothing would exist?
If it were only a force or energy, I would call it a force or energy. If it were intelligent and able to communicate with me, I would call it whatever it wants to be called.
Great and we Christian, choose to call that, GOD.
Why? Because the term refers, in classical theism, to something that has those attributes.

So, Would you agree, going over all that was discussed here:
Things that come into being require something to cause them or act upon them to come into being?
Things that move/change from on state to another, require something outside themselves to act on them to do so?