Evidence for God from Science

neo-x wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:12 am

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:00 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 10:58 am There you proved my point. The reason we don't need to follow the law is because we can simply love. But love is the fulfillment of law, obeying the law isn't love. For you can obey the law in fear of punishment without actually changing. But love goes beyond the law. And does what sadly law can never do. I don't murder, not because I need to follow the law but because being in Christ makes me a new person. That love is what makes law obsolete for as Paul himself argues that law is after all lawless people.

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 10:49 am Commandments 1-4 = How to love God

Commandments 5-10 - How to love your neighbor.

You're completely wrong again.
.
.

Yeah, grace is a totally irrational thing. It never makes sense.

Fwiw, When I first joined this forum I held the identical position as yours. Not only on the law but also on understanding eternal life.

So you are saying that paul is wrong when he says the law is for lawless people?

I noticed you don't deal with what I write/say, but with what you think I wrote/said.

What does the law have to do with grace? The law doesn't afford grace. The law exists for one purpose and one only...to point to sin. Therefore if you do not act according to the law, then you're probably not living in the Spirit, but in the flesh.

The law is for ALL people, including Christ Himself in that the law had no curse to blame Him for. Therefore if the law has no claim on Christ, He is righteous. The law is holy, righteous and good!

I don't see how anyone acknowledging the NT could think the Law is bad if it's clear it is holy, it is righteous and it is good!
.
.

warren631 wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:50 am Jesus said “If ye love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15). After all this heated discussion I will answer my own question with a definite YES! If I fail then Jesus will forgive me if I have faith and love Him. Anyway, keeping Saturday holy and not murdering anyone will not be too onerous for me.

Do you keep all of Saturday holy?

Do you keep any or all of another day holy?

BavarianWheels wrote:
What does the law have to do with grace? The law doesn't afford grace. The law exists for one purpose and one only...to point to sin.

The law pointed to sin. But the law, along with the entire OT, points to Christ. The 10 commandments point to sin, which points to our need for a redeemer.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:31 am Bav,

I know you have said multiple times, that observing the sabbath is not a requirement for salvation. In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?

“Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments.”

From “Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-Day Adventists” (1980), 18, cited in Seventh-day Adventists Believe…, 232.

As warren mentioned, the NT claims that Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commands." ( John 14:15 ) Is Jesus not the God of the OT? Is Jesus not the God that created the earth and cosmos? ( John 1:1-3 )

Christ is asked which is the greatest commandment in the law, to which his answer is LOVE. "All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. ( Matthew 22:34-40 Galatians 5:14 )

The 10 Commandments can easily be split into two Commands:

Love God - Commands 1-4

Love your neighbor - Commands 5-10

These two can then be summed into one word: LOVE

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:28 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
What does the law have to do with grace? The law doesn't afford grace. The law exists for one purpose and one only...to point to sin.

The law pointed to sin. But the law, along with the entire OT, points to Christ. The 10 commandments point to sin, which points to our need for a redeemer.

The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.

The only law that points to Christ is the ceremonial laws of the TEMPLE which the shedding of animal blood pointed to the ultimate shedding of the Lamb of God...Christ. He is the mediator of that covenant which was "new" ONLY on the fact that animal blood does not save. Only Christ's blood saves. ( Matthew 26:28 Luke 22:20 )

The OT, I will agree, points to a coming Messiah...and we know Him to be Jesus Christ.
.
.

Bav,

Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:

In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?

--------------------------------

BavarianWheels wrote:
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.

The OT, I will agree, points to a coming Messiah...and we know Him to be Jesus Christ.

Bav, you can't both agree and disagree at the same time.

1)The entire OT points to Christ, the Redeemer.

2) The 10 commandments are part of the OT

3) Therefore, the 10 commandments point to Christ, the Redeemer.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:14 pm Bav,

Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:

In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?

Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:14 pm Bav, you can't both agree and disagree at the same time.

1)The entire OT points to Christ, the Redeemer.

2) The 10 commandments are part of the OT

3) Therefore, the 10 commandments point to Christ, the Redeemer.

Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?

No, but on the whole, the OT speaks of a coming Messiah. It is the central theme/message.

So yes, it is possible to agree and disagree at the same time on this matter.

Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:02 pm The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.

.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:
Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?

Of course it does!

The law is for the lawbreaker. The rules point to a need for rules, because people are sinners. And what do sinners need? Redemption. Redemption through Christ.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:47 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?

Of course it does!

The law is for the lawbreaker. The rules point to a need for rules, because people are sinners. And what do sinners need? Redemption. Redemption through Christ.

It doesn't...it doesn't even mention a Messiah, much less redemption and/or Christ. You're using confirmation bias to make that leap.
.
.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,

Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?

BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.

I did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.

The law pointed to sin.

Sin points to the need for a redeemer.

The redeemer is Christ.

Therefore, the law pointed to Christ

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:54 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:47 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Oh? Leviticus 18:11-17 is part of the OT. Does this specifically point to Christ the Redeemer?

Of course it does!

The law is for the lawbreaker. The rules point to a need for rules, because people are sinners. And what do sinners need? Redemption. Redemption through Christ.

It doesn't...it doesn't even mention a Messiah, much less redemption and/or Christ. You're using confirmation bias to make that leap.
.
.

Confirmation bias? Come on Bav. What is the purpose of the OT?

Seriously Bav, this is Christianity 101. This is basic theology.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pm RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,

Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?

BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?

You tell me...if the commandments are fulfilled in love and love is the fruit of the Spirit...then...as the texts I point to that said the Law is fulfilled in Love and Galatians lists love as a fruit of the Spirit.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.

I did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.

The law pointed to sin.

Sin points to the need for a redeemer.

The redeemer is Christ.

Therefore, the law pointed to Christ

Again, you're not showing me where in the Decalogue it points to Christ, the redeemer.

You're offering confirmation bias as to "show" me...that's not showing me.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 2:01 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pm RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,

Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?

BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?

You tell me...if the commandments are fulfilled in love and love is the fruit of the Spirit...then...as the texts I point to that said the Law is fulfilled in Love and Galatians lists love as a fruit of the Spirit.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.

I did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.

The law pointed to sin.

Sin points to the need for a redeemer.

The redeemer is Christ.

Therefore, the law pointed to Christ

Again, you're not showing me where in the Decalogue it points to Christ, the redeemer.

You're offering confirmation bias as to "show" me...that's not showing me.
.
.

And this is why people don't want to have a conversation with you.

You answered my question with a non answer, deflecting back to me, to answer a question that is a significant question to a practicing SDA.

And then, you ask me to show you where the Decalogue points to Christ, and I made a syllogism showing you how it points to Christ, and you tell me I didn't show you where. IT IS RIGHT IN THE VERY WORDS OF THE COMMANDMENTS THEMSELVES!!!

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 2:07 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 2:01 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pm RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm
Bav,

Since you didn't actually answer my question, I'll ask it again:
In your opinion, is observing the sabbath and other OT commandments the fruit one who is saved, shows?

BavarianWheels wrote:
Are you suggesting that love is not a fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22,23 It's the first one, for crying out loud.
--------------------------------
Why can't you answer my question? Is sabbath observance, fruit that is shown by one who is saved?

You tell me...if the commandments are fulfilled in love and love is the fruit of the Spirit...then...as the texts I point to that said the Law is fulfilled in Love and Galatians lists love as a fruit of the Spirit.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:56 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 4:02 pm
The Decalogue does not point to redemption! Show me where it does.

I did answer. I told you that the law points to sin. And sin shows that we need a redeemer. The law doesn't point to sin, just to point to sin! The law didn't point out sin just to show that people are worthless sinners with no hope.

The law pointed to sin.

Sin points to the need for a redeemer.

The redeemer is Christ.

Therefore, the law pointed to Christ

Again, you're not showing me where in the Decalogue it points to Christ, the redeemer.

You're offering confirmation bias as to "show" me...that's not showing me.
.
.

And this is why people don't want to have a conversation with you.

You answered my question with a non answer, deflecting back to me, to answer a question that is a significant question to a practicing SDA.

And then, you ask me to show you where the Decalogue points to Christ, and I made a syllogism showing you how it points to Christ, and you tell me I didn't show you where. IT IS RIGHT IN THE VERY WORDS OF THE COMMANDMENTS THEMSELVES!!!

I showed you the text(s) that show the commandments to be fulfilled in LOVE.

Then I showed you that one of the fruits of the Spirit IS LOVE.

Therefore that answers your question.

But you haven't shown me where the Decalogue's words point to Christ, the redeemer. If your point is that love is the central theme of the Decalogue ( and I would agree ) that doesn't point me to Christ the redeemer, but to God the Creator and how He wants us to engage/interact/love Him and how we should love one another.

That you equate love with Jesus, the redeemer is a confirmation bias. It's not shown in the words of the Decalogue, but an implication, by bias.
.
.

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:18 pm

warren631 wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 11:50 am Jesus said “If ye love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15). After all this heated discussion I will answer my own question with a definite YES! If I fail then Jesus will forgive me if I have faith and love Him. Anyway, keeping Saturday holy and not murdering anyone will not be too onerous for me.

Do you keep all of Saturday holy?

Do you keep any or all of another day holy?

Yes, I will try to keep all my Saturdays (24 hours New York time) holy and free from unnecessary work as the Father and the Son commands. That will be my only Sabbath day to show my love for God for making such a wonderful universe. I will also try to not make and worship any graven images, try to stop murdering people, love my dam neighbor (or try to tolerate him), and to stop lusting after the old lady next door. If I fail and sin then I will ask Jesus to forgive me and I will try not to sin again.

BTW, who on this board has a PhD in Christian Theology from a well respected college (not the on-line ones)?

warren631 wrote:
Yes, I will try to keep all my Saturdays (24 hours New York time)

Shame, shame, shame. You changed the sabbath to your own liking.

That's not acceptable.



Edit:

I'm trying to show you the irony in the fact that you think the sabbath is binding on yourself, yet you changed it. Which means that the sabbath not only isn't binding, but you are no different than anyone who decides a different day is their sabbath.