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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:17 pm
by PaulSacramento
What do you think "eternal" means ken?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:08 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:31 pm
Basically my replies were:
*How do you know there can only be one eternal thing,
*How do you know that which is eternal cannot be material
Byblos wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:11 am I know because you have proven time and again that you have no concept of what logic is even though you pretend otherwise. From time to time I engage in your threads hoping to benefit other readers. A long time ago I lost hope of having a rational conversation with you. It is sad but true.
So once again, for the benefit of others:
*How do you know there can only be one eternal thing,
I (or any aristotelian/classical/scholastic philosopher) never said there can only be one eternal. In fact, Aquinas' five ways are predicated on this very assumption, that it CANNOT be shown from reason alone that the universe (i.e. matter and energy) is not eternal. That is precisely why he formulated his 5 ways from the perspective of essentially ordered causal series (here and now), rather than accidentally ordered causal series (temporal).
So you agree the possibility of multiple first causes? If so, that is the only point I was trying to make.
Byblos wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:11 am - Can matter and energy be eternal? YES (insomuch as it cannot be shown otherwise from reason alone)
- Does that change the fact that the unmoved more must be one and only one? NO
Which fits into my scenario of multiple eternal things moved by each other.( Though this would eliminate the need of an unmoved mover.)
Byblos wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:11 am *How do you know that which is eternal cannot be material
I've already explained that matter and energy cannot be shown from reason alone NOT to be eternal but that's not what you meant to ask. What you meant to ask is more fundamental, i.e. if matter is eternal, why can't it be the unmoved mover?
No my question was as I asked it, because multiple things acting upon each other does not require an unmoved mover.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:09 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:17 pm
What do you think "eternal" means ken?
In the context of this conversation; always existing. What do you think it means?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:07 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:09 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:17 pm
What do you think "eternal" means ken?
In the context of this conversation; always existing. What do you think it means?
I don't think eternal requires a context but I know what you mean.
Eternal, by definition, means everlasting, without end OR beginning.
Do you know any material thing that falls into that category?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:02 am
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:07 am
Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:09 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:17 pm
What do you think "eternal" means ken?
In the context of this conversation; always existing. What do you think it means?
I don't think eternal requires a context but I know what you mean.
Eternal, by definition, means everlasting, without end OR beginning.
Do you know any material thing that falls into that category?
No.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:08 am
by PaulSacramento
So something eternal can NOT be material, yes?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:32 am
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:08 am
So something eternal can NOT be material, yes?
If we are going to assume that because I have never heard of it, therefore it does not exist; then we must dismiss the possibility of anything outside of the material world as well; to include your spiritual world. Are you sure this is the direction you want to take this?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:53 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:32 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:08 am
So something eternal can NOT be material, yes?
If we are going to assume that because I have never heard of it, therefore it does not exist; then we must dismiss the possibility of anything outside of the material world as well; to include your spiritual world. Are you sure this is the direction you want to take this?
Nope, we are basically stating what we KNOW to be factual, which is that something material can't be eternal. You know why, right?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:27 am
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:53 am
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:32 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:08 am
So something eternal can NOT be material, yes?
If we are going to assume that because I have never heard of it, therefore it does not exist; then we must dismiss the possibility of anything outside of the material world as well; to include your spiritual world. Are you sure this is the direction you want to take this?
Nope, we are basically stating what we KNOW to be factual, which is that something material can't be eternal. You know why, right?
No; that's what you are saying. I'm saying just because I have never witnessed it, doesn't mean it is impossible. However; if you know for a fact that material cannot be eternal, by all means; please present your facts.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:35 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:27 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:53 am
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:32 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:08 am
So something eternal can NOT be material, yes?
If we are going to assume that because I have never heard of it, therefore it does not exist; then we must dismiss the possibility of anything outside of the material world as well; to include your spiritual world. Are you sure this is the direction you want to take this?
Nope, we are basically stating what we KNOW to be factual, which is that something material can't be eternal. You know why, right?
No; that's what you are saying. I'm saying just because I have never witnessed it, doesn't mean it is impossible. However; if you know for a fact that material cannot be eternal, by all means; please present your facts.
Material is made up of what?
Are those things eternal?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:42 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:35 am
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:27 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:53 am
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:32 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:08 am
So something eternal can NOT be material, yes?
If we are going to assume that because I have never heard of it, therefore it does not exist; then we must dismiss the possibility of anything outside of the material world as well; to include your spiritual world. Are you sure this is the direction you want to take this?
Nope, we are basically stating what we KNOW to be factual, which is that something material can't be eternal. You know why, right?
No; that's what you are saying. I'm saying just because I have never witnessed it, doesn't mean it is impossible. However; if you know for a fact that material cannot be eternal, by all means; please present your facts.
Material is made up of what?
Are those things eternal?
I don’t know the answer to your question however seems to me something has to be eternal right right?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:59 pm
by Philip
Ken: ... however seems to me something has to be eternal right right?
Unless you think things can pop into existence uncaused.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:12 pm
by Kenny
Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:59 pm
Ken: ... however seems to me something has to be eternal right right?
Unless you think things can pop into existence uncaused.
The idea that material has existed eternally sounds reasonable to me. Do you agree?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:52 pm
by Philip
Ken: The idea that material has existed eternally sounds reasonable to me. Do you agree?
Define "material."
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:37 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:42 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:35 am
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:27 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:53 am
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:32 am
If we are going to assume that because I have never heard of it, therefore it does not exist; then we must dismiss the possibility of anything outside of the material world as well; to include your spiritual world. Are you sure this is the direction you want to take this?
Nope, we are basically stating what we KNOW to be factual, which is that something material can't be eternal. You know why, right?
No; that's what you are saying. I'm saying just because I have never witnessed it, doesn't mean it is impossible. However; if you know for a fact that material cannot be eternal, by all means; please present your facts.
Material is made up of what?
Are those things eternal?
I don’t know the answer to your question however seems to me something has to be eternal right right?
Something, yes BUT as you mentioned ( not aware of any material thing that is eternal), there is no evidence that this "something" is material.