Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

[DBowling]

I am still waiting on an answer to the Matthew 4:10 because trinity is not an answer to that one...

I've already answered that one.
According to Matthew 4:10 "the Lord your God" is the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

According to Matthew 14:33
Jesus is a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?
And the Son of God a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

Therefore, according to Scripture (Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33)...
the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)? is "the Lord your God" = Jesus = the Son of God

Plus since yall still want to use John 1:1 stating that he was with God from the Beginning, which by the way, it says was with and not God...

You are misrepresenting Scripture... again.
Here is the text of John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:1-3 makes three explicit statements about the Word (Jesus)

1. The Word (Jesus) was WITH God
2. The Word (Jesus) WAS God
3. All things were made through the Word (Jesus)

All three of these Scriptural claims about Jesus are true.
You can't just pick and choose and disregard Scriptures just because they conflict with your personal opinions.

[RickD]

DBowling,

Surely you can see that this guy has no intention of having an honest conversation?

It's one thing to have patience with unbelievers, but there comes a point when we need to realize that some people just don't want to learn anything if it disagrees with their worldview.

[DBowling]

Definition

to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
to the Jewish high priests
to God
to Christ
to heavenly beings
to demons

Pay Homage not worship if you had used the correct meaning of the word then my answers would be different....lol... you gotta do better than that because I happen to have quite a collection of Lexicons here at the house... which would you like me to use???... I also have copies of the various codexes as well... you see I don't go in half cocked when I go into a discussion this serious...

Well if you don't think that proskuneó means worship then you have no clue what you are talking about...
Here's a link that should get you on the right track
https://biblehub.com/greek/4352.htm

[DBowling]

DBowling,

Surely you can see that this guy has no intention of having an honest conversation?

It's one thing to have patience with unbelievers, but there comes a point when we need to realize that some people just don't want to learn anything if it disagrees with their worldview.

Of course I am praying that Lonnie will come to see and understand the truth.

But I am not doing this just for Lonnie.
There are a lot of people out there who, like Lonnie, deny that Jesus is God.

I am spending time on this so I can help Lonnie and others who are reading this thread to understand what Scripture says about who Jesus is and how the truth of Scripture can be used to rebut the claims of those who would deny that Jesus is God.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan, Jesus responded to Satan with Scripture.
Jesus' example is a good one for Christians to follow when we encounter those who deny Jesus Christ.

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
Of course I am praying that Lonnie will come to see and understand the truth.

ive been praying the same. But Lonnie has to want to see and understand. God's not going to force him.

But I am not doing this just for Lonnie.
There are a lot of people out there who, like Lonnie, deny that Jesus is God.

Sure, and maybe some who are reading, actually want to understand. Good point.

I am spending time on this so I can help Lonnie and others who are reading this thread to understand what Scripture says about who Jesus is and how the truth of Scripture can be use to rebut the claims of those who would deny that Jesus is God.

I think you've done a great job with posting great scripture references, as well as thoroughly explaining the meaning of the scripture that you've posted.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan, Jesus responded to Satan with Scripture.
Jesus' example is a good one for Christians to follow when we encounter those who deny Jesus Christ.

The only difference between Satan and Lonnie, in this comparison, is that Satan knew that Jesus was God incarnate.

I had a friend in high school who had an older brother who was a paranoid schizophrenic, that believed everyone was involved in a conspiracy to get him. His conversations were based more in reality, than Lonnie's.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

I am still waiting on an answer to the Matthew 4:10 because trinity is not an answer to that one...

I've already answered that one.
According to Matthew 4:10 "the Lord your God" is the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

According to Matthew 14:33
Jesus is a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?
And the Son of God a valid object of worship (proskuneó)?

Therefore, according to Scripture (Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33)...
the ONLY valid object of worship (proskuneó)? is "the Lord your God" = Jesus = the Son of God

Plus since yall still want to use John 1:1 stating that he was with God from the Beginning, which by the way, it says was with and not God...

You are misrepresenting Scripture... again.
Here is the text of John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:1-3 makes three explicit statements about the Word (Jesus)

1. The Word (Jesus) was WITH God
2. The Word (Jesus) WAS God
3. All things were made through the Word (Jesus)

All three of these Scriptural claims about Jesus are true.
You can't just pick and choose and disregard Scriptures just because they conflict with your personal opinions.

So you deny the meaning of the actual definiton according to ancient greek???

Since you have chosen to not acknowledge that God called Jesus his son and the fact that Jesus cried out asking why God had forsaken him, and still maintain that Jesus is God why bother keeping the discussion going???

Not being mean but when I study I take in all aspects, regardless how much you call me wrong because none of you have answered my questions about those specific verses?

You cannot attribute the Trinity to either and you cannot use "caused a rift" because a rift is a division and a house divided cannot stand...

Seems to me that you won't answer because you can't answer because until you can answer you can not claim Jesus is God because to claim such you would have to beable to prove it with all scripture not just a few verses...

As for wanting to learn, how can I learn when you are ignoring scripture that specifically refutes the belief that Jesus is God and in God's own word and Christ's own word...

So before you go judging me you need to beable to explain the scripture that refutes ypur beliefs that Christ was God, because with the scripture you have given then I compare then to the words of Christ and of God as well as the conversation between Christ and Satan, I cannot in good conscience come to the same conclusion...

So forgive me if I do not cave to your beliefs...

And Bible hub I will never use to translate because I found too man incorrect translations from both Hebrew and ancient Greek... Always good to have actual lexicon and friends and relatives who are fluent in ancient Greek and Hebrew and they don't agree with me on most things but they always treat me with respect... Just about everyone I know, their denominations range from Roman Catholic to southern Baptist... No Mormon of JW...

Wanna talk about having an intelligent discussion, a respectful person would actually make a conscious effort to look at thibgs from all angles before passing judgement .... Even the one priest who absolutely does not like me is honest with me when I ask him a question...

So I ask again. Explain those verses I asked about??? Please ans thank you...

[Philip]

Interesting, Jesus accepted worship, because He was God.

Others were told not to bow to an angel or a mere man!

Revelation 19:10

Acts 10: 25-26

[DBowling]

So you deny the meaning of the actual definiton according to ancient greek???

Not at all...
I'm not the one who denied that proskuneó means worship

Since you have chosen to not acknowledge that God called Jesus his son

That's not true...
I have stated many times that Jesus is the Son of God

and the fact that Jesus cried out asking why God had forsaken him,

That's another false assertion...
I not only acknowledged that Jesus cried out that God had forsaken him, but I offered an explanation as to why I thought he did so.

Blatant dishonesty will not help you out at all

As for wanting to learn, how can I learn when you are ignoring scripture that specifically refutes the belief that Jesus is God and in God's own word and Christ's own word...

Like I said, I believe I have responded to every Scripture that you have quoted.
If I somehow overlooked one... just let me know

So before you go judging me you need to be able to explain the scripture that refutes ypur beliefs that Christ was God

You have yet to present any Scriptures that refute my position.
You have made a lot of unScriptural assertions and misrepresentations about my position, but you have yet to produce any Scriptures that contradict the doctrine that Jesus is God.

And Bible hub I will never use to translate because I found too man incorrect translations from both Hebrew and ancient Greek...

That statement says more about you than it does about Bible Hub

So I ask again. Explain those verses I asked about??? Please ans thank you...

Ok... let me know which verses you want me to go over again, and I will be happy to copy/paste my responses from earlier in this thread...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Ok then I guess we are at an impass because a rift is a division and a divided house cannot stand ... So since a divided gouse cannot stand then there could bot be a rift on the Cross now could there... As for the meaning of proskuneó other than Bible hub, which by the way I did check out, of all the lexicons I have checked and a couple that I have that are very old... proskuneó means to pay homage, to express respect...so what part of that means worship???

[LonnieOwesn1973]

In the theological community we match the definition with the context in which a word is being use ... Oh wait that is also common reading comprehension as well... My bad... We will start with matther 27:46..

[LonnieOwesn1973]

So in Matthew 27:46 God died on the cross??? Because you maintain Jesus is God and God cannot die... And before you mention the resurrection read what Paul says Romans 8:11 if Jesus was God then, why did paul mention God resurrecting him from the dead?

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Sorry just go with the Matthew verse first... Sorry was just thinking output....

[DBowling]

Ok then I guess we are at an impass because a rift is a division and a divided house cannot stand ... So since a divided gouse cannot stand then there could bot be a rift on the Cross now could there....

If Jesus was submitting to the will of the Father when he became "sin for us" then there is no divided house, so your logic fails.
But whether my explanation is correct or not has zero impact on the teaching of Scripture that Jesus is God.

It's an interesting subject to ponder, but it is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the meaning of proskuneó other than Bible hub, which by the way I did check out, of all the lexicons I have checked and a couple that I have that are very old... proskuneó means to pay homage, to express respect...so what part of that means worship???

On the other hand, the meaning of proskuneó in Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33 is very relevant to the topic at hand, because when Jesus accepted worship (proskuneó) that validates the teaching of Scripture that...
"the Lord your God" = Jesus = the Son of God

So... I did a quick search of lexicons too... and I didn't find a single lexicon that didn't list worship under proskuneó, so I have difficulty believing that you were able to find a lexicon that did not even mention worship.

That said... let's go back to Mat 4:10

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship (proskuneó) the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

Do you believe that worship is an accurate translation for proskuneó in Mat 4:10?

Do you believe that according to Mat 4:10...
the Lord our God is the ONLY valid object of "proskuneó"?

[DBowling]

So in Matthew 27:46 God died on the cross???

Yes... Jesus' physical body died on the cross.
Just like our physical bodies will eventually die some day.

Jesus' Spirit was reunited with a resurrection body when he rose from the dead.
Just like our spirits will be reunited with a resurrection body in the future when Jesus Returns.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Ok then I guess we are at an impass because a rift is a division and a divided house cannot stand ... So since a divided gouse cannot stand then there could bot be a rift on the Cross now could there....

If Jesus was submitting to the will of the Father when he became "sin for us" then there is no divided house, so your logic fails.
But whether my explanation is correct or not has zero impact on the teaching of Scripture that Jesus is God.

It's an interesting subject to ponder, but it is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the meaning of proskuneó other than Bible hub, which by the way I did check out, of all the lexicons I have checked and a couple that I have that are very old... proskuneó means to pay homage, to express respect...so what part of that means worship???

On the other hand, the meaning of proskuneó in Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33 is very relevant to the topic at hand, because when Jesus accepted worship (proskuneó) that validates the teaching of Scripture that...
"the Lord your God" = Jesus = the Son of God

So... I did a quick search of lexicons too... and I didn't find a single lexicon that didn't list worship under proskuneó, so I have difficulty believing that you were able to find a lexicon that did not even mention worship.

That said... let's go back to Mat 4:10

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship (proskuneó) the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

Do you believe that worship is an accurate translation for proskuneó in Mat 4:10?

Do you believe that according to Mat 4:10...
the Lord our God is the ONLY valid object of "proskuneó"?

The LORD our God yes but the Son of God no....
I copied and pasted the definition lol for you... No,mention of worship in it ... And according to your lexicon search what are the other possible uses for the word???

Jesus didn't resurrect himself, if he did then Paul is a liar for sure...