Evidence for God from Science

Fliegender wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:00 am Here is what I think, distilled down to it’s essence:

1. You believe the Covid19 vaccine is dangerous.
2. You believe the illness caused by Covid19 isn’t dangerous for most people.

We are not that far apart because,

1. I don’t believe the vaccine is dangerous.
2. I believe the illness caused by Covid19 isn’t dangerous for most people.

This is the biggest problem: the illness caused by Covid19 is sufficiently serious to have tied up hospital beds around the world. This in turn has led to overworked medical staff with all that implies for the treatment of other problems people go to a hospital for. The illness has also hastened the deaths of the frail and the very old.

Personal risk is not the only (or even primary for that matter) reason for getting the Covid vaccine.

The most obvious threat from the covid pandemic is to the nation wide and world wide community.
To date, 2.72 million people have died world wide and 543,000 people have died in the US.
The pandemic has also wreaked havok on health systems and economies across the globe.

The only way to defeat this pandemic and for the lives of the community at large to return to 'normal' is to reach herd immunity within that community.
And the only way to reach herd immunity without millions more people dying needlessly is for people to get vaccinated.

All the metrics available indicate that the covid vaccine is safe and effective
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... vents.html

And the covid vaccines are actually working.
They are saving human lives and the US is slowly making progress towards the herd immunity which will enable economic recovery and allow people who have been financially devastated during the pandemic to go back to work.

This is not just a personal risk decision. This is also a 'love your neighbor' decision.

DBowling,

Do you sincerely believe that there is no risk from mRNA Covid vaccines? Do you sincerely believe that not a single person has been harmed by these vaccines?

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:50 am

Fliegender wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:00 am Here is what I think, distilled down to it’s essence:

1. You believe the Covid19 vaccine is dangerous.
2. You believe the illness caused by Covid19 isn’t dangerous for most people.

We are not that far apart because,

1. I don’t believe the vaccine is dangerous.
2. I believe the illness caused by Covid19 isn’t dangerous for most people.

This is the biggest problem: the illness caused by Covid19 is sufficiently serious to have tied up hospital beds around the world. This in turn has led to overworked medical staff with all that implies for the treatment of other problems people go to a hospital for. The illness has also hastened the deaths of the frail and the very old.

Personal risk is not the only (or even primary for that matter) reason for getting the Covid vaccine.

The most obvious threat from the covid pandemic is to the nation wide and world wide community.
To date, 2.72 million people have died world wide and 543,000 people have died in the US.
The pandemic has also wreaked havok on health systems and economies across the globe.

The only way to defeat this pandemic and for the lives of the community at large to return to 'normal' is to reach herd immunity within that community.
And the only way to reach herd immunity without millions more people dying needlessly is for people to get vaccinated.

All the metrics available indicate that the covid vaccine is safe and effective
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... vents.html

And the covid vaccines are actually working.
They are saving human lives and the US is slowly making progress towards the herd immunity which will enable economic recovery and allow people who have been financially devastated during the pandemic to go back to work.

This is not just a personal risk decision. This is also a 'love your neighbor' decision.

I agree with everything you wrote, above. I got Covid19 and recovered as did my wife. Presumably, we have immunity. The only reason for us to get the vaccine is to have proof of vaccination - and therefore immunity - when crossing an international border.* We are frequent fliers and will be visiting the Czech Republic next autumn.

For those who have some sort of objection to the Covid19 vaccines, no one is forcing them to get it. I really think such people are imprudent but if they are hermits living in a treehouse with no ladder or rope to get down, I understand.

I would just like to repeat that Prophet Trump (pbuh) has recommended vaccines to everybody including to His disciples. Prophet Trump (pbuh) is a genius (He said so Himself) so I’m pleased that He has validated the worldwide chorus of leaders and healthcare professionals in recommending everyone get vaccinated.



*at the moment we get a piece of paper indicating the date of our Covid19 vaccinations, and the type administered.

Fliegender wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:16 pm I would just like to repeat that Prophet Trump (pbuh) has recommended vaccines to everybody including to His disciples. Prophet Trump (pbuh) is a genius (He said so Himself) so I’m pleased that He has validated the worldwide chorus of leaders and healthcare professionals in recommending everyone get vaccinated.

I think most people would acknowledge that Trump has an abundant obsession with his own wellbeing and self-interest.

I think you may have pointed this out in a previous post, but I found it very telling that...
- After Trump had contracted the Covid-19 virus
- And after he had fully recovered from the Covid-19 virus
- And after he already had Covid-19 antibodies in his body
Trump and his wife (who had also recovered from Covid-19) chose to receive the Covid vaccine before he left office.

Now since Trump did not make it publicly known when he received the covid vaccine, I think we can rule out any altruistic motivation such as providing a good example.
Someone or something must have convinced Trump that it was within his own best interest to receive the covid vaccine...
... even though he had already recovered from covid-19 and had the antibodies.

I wonder what could have motivated Trump to get secretly vaccinated before he left office

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:11 pm
... I found it very telling that...

- After Trump had contracted the Covid-19 virus
- And after he had fully recovered from the Covid-19 virus
- And after he already had Covid-19 antibodies in his body
Trump and his wife (who had also recovered from Covid-19) chose to receive the Covid vaccine before he left office.

Now since Trump did not make it publicly known when he received the covid vaccine, I think we can rule out any altruistic motivation such as providing a good example.
Someone or something must have convinced Trump that it was within his own best interest to receive the covid vaccine...
... even though he had already recovered from covid-19 and had the antibodies.

I wonder what could have motivated Trump to get secretly vaccinated before he left office

A very interesting observation you made, above. Prophet Trump (pbuh) was very sick with Covid19 (by His own admission), received an experimental treatment, got better and was vaccinated before He left office even though He had the antibodies. I never realized this until you brought it up.

(There may be a good reason for someone with Covid19 antibodies to be vaccinated anyway.)

DBowling,

Do you sincerely believe that there is no risk from mRNA Covid vaccines? Do you sincerely believe that not a single person has been harmed by these vaccines?

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:36 am DBowling,

Do you sincerely believe that there is no risk from mRNA Covid vaccines? Do you sincerely believe that not a single person has been harmed by these vaccines?

There’s no such thing as “no risk”. Everything we do involves risk to varying degrees. I don’t know for sure but driving your car to the supermarket probably involves orders-of-magnitude more risk than mRNA vaccines. Take the bus!

(Oh, yeah...you could encounter a crazed shooter at the supermarket. Order pizza from Pizza Hut instead. Stay safe!)

Fliegender wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:13 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:11 pm
Someone or something must have convinced Trump that it was within his own best interest to receive the covid vaccine...
... even though he had already recovered from covid-19 and had the antibodies.

I wonder what could have motivated Trump to get secretly vaccinated before he left office

(There may be a good reason for someone with Covid19 antibodies to be vaccinated anyway.)

I asked my wife why someone who had suffered from Covid19 would want/need a vaccine. She said that the vaccination acts as a booster shot, as a “second vaccination” so to speak for people who have had the disease. The protocol is that those who have been tested positive for Covid19 (with or without symptoms) only get one dose of the vaccine.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:36 am DBowling,

Do you sincerely believe that there is no risk from mRNA Covid vaccines? Do you sincerely believe that not a single person has been harmed by these vaccines?

Here's what the data says...
Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... cines.html

What you need to know
- COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.
- Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring in U.S. history.
- CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as you are eligible.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... vents.html

What you need to know
- COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.
- Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines, and these vaccines will undergo the most intensive safety monitoring in U.S. history.
- CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as you are eligible.
- Adverse events described on this page have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS).
- VAERS accepts reports of any adverse event following vaccination, even if it is not clear the vaccine caused the problem.
- CDC, FDA, and other federal partners will continue to monitor the safety of the COVID-19 vaccines.

126 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through March 22, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,216 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS.

Fliegender wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:53 am

Fliegender wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:13 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:11 pm
Someone or something must have convinced Trump that it was within his own best interest to receive the covid vaccine...
... even though he had already recovered from covid-19 and had the antibodies.

I wonder what could have motivated Trump to get secretly vaccinated before he left office

(There may be a good reason for someone with Covid19 antibodies to be vaccinated anyway.)

I asked my wife why someone who had suffered from Covid19 would want/need a vaccine. She said that the vaccination acts as a booster shot, as a “second vaccination” so to speak for people who have had the disease. The protocol is that those who have been tested positive for Covid19 (with or without symptoms) only get one dose of the vaccine.

Ah... that makes sense...
Thanks

DBowling,

Is there a reason why you won’t answer my questions? I asked you what YOU believe.

Again:


Do you sincerely believe that there is no risk from mRNA Covid vaccines? Do you sincerely believe that not a single person has been harmed by these vaccines?

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:07 pm DBowling,

Is there a reason why you won’t answer my questions? I asked you what YOU believe.

I believe what the data and science say...
... hence the many links in my posts

But here's my understanding of the data and science:
1. Deaths - "A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed NO evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths"
==> There is currently no documented risk of death from the covid vaccine

2. Allergic Reactions - "Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare and occurred in approximately 2 to 5 people per million vaccinated in the United States based on events reported to VAERS."
Documented allergic reactions to the covid vaccine are non-zero, but extremely rare.
The 15 to 30 minute waiting period after after receiving the vaccine allows for a quick response in the rare case of an allergic reaction.
==> There is a non-zero but extremely small risk for an allergic reaction to the covid vaccine, just like there is a non-zero risk for an allergic reaction to just about anything.

3. Side Effects - "Results from monitoring efforts are reassuring. Some people have no side effects. Many people have reported mild side effects after COVID-19 vaccination"
Side effects (as I have personally witnessed) can be unpleasant or even miserable, but they are not dangerous.
Side effects are evidence that the immune system is responding to the vaccine.
==> Since side effects are not harmful or dangerous, they pose no risk to a person's health.

That is what I believe (because that is what the Science and data say)
But what I believe is really irrelevant.

People should NOT be making decisions about whether or not to get vaccinated based on what someone says on the internet.

If someone wants to know...
... Is the Covid Vaccine safe and effective?
Ask your doctor.

If someone wants to know...
... Is the Covid Vaccine safe for my particular medical situation?
Ask your doctor.

If people go to their doctors to answer their questions and concerns about covid vaccinations instead of relying on politicians and internet conspiracy theories, then we can reach herd immunity and defeat this horrible pandemic.

DBowling,

So going by the stats that you choose to find credible, which say that there have been cases(however few) of people being harmed or injured from the mRNA vaccines, am I right in saying that you do believe:
1)there is a risk involved when getting one of these vaccines

And

2) people have been harmed by theses vaccines

In your opinion, are 1 and 2 correct?


DBowling wrote:

People should NOT be making decisions about whether or not to get vaccinated based on what someone says on the internet.

This is just another example of how self-defeating your logic is. You post cdc articles from the Internet, use them to back your argument, then tell people not to base their vaccination decisions on what someone says on the internet.

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:43 pm

Philip,

Why must you focus on the negative?

While you look at this thread as beating a dead horse, I’d rather focus on the positive.

Let’s think of it as helping to keep a dead forum alive.