Evidence for God from Science

twoedgedsword, Thank you but I am not addressing /posting as if this were a "Debate", I am just sharing thats all. As I posted earlier I am but a Lay member of the LDS Faith/Church [ Formerly Baptized a Methodist as an infant, Recieved Jesus Christ as a young teenager in a local park here in So.C.A, and was Baptized in a Fundamentalist Independent Baptist Church as a young teenager, Became a LDS member while in High School ]. I have attended a number of Churches/ Bible studies since that time period [Catholic, E.O , Protestant, Baptist, Calvery Chapels, Non- Denominational, Churches Of Christ, UPC, J.W].
I have/hold no alphabet letters after my name in any catagory of Christian/Biblical studies. I am a Brain Injury survivor after entering a freeway onramp in the pouring rain in my company Bank truck, hydroplanning/flipping over and landing on all 4 of my tires and being hit broadsided by a fully loaded tractor trailor semi truck at 70 mph, almost dying, being in a coma for 6 weeks, waking up and surviving by the Grace of GOD. I still suffer from Physical/Psychological problems but my faith sustains me in THE LORD OF LIFE and MASTER CHRIST JESUS.
I am self taught on a computer [I type with2 fingers]. As to your comments I can only say they have been addresed in LDS/ non LDS material. I do know that the Smithsonian Institute is just as critical if not more of the Bible. They have a work paper that addresses there position. As to things of DNA nature I would refer you to the following :
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai195.html.
So what if they are LDS ?, does this mean there research is not valid ?, this is adhominem, and useless. Sands of the sea ?, are you up on this issue ?. Sorry but Smithsonian are not experts on pre-classic Meso/America, there have been a number of responses to there statement on The BoM. I must go, please take the time to read the perdinent material before commenting, thank you. May Grace rain on you this night, In His Debt, Tanyan.

For some reason the link above is not working, try http://www.fairlds.org

Once you get to the above web site go to the F.A.I.R hot spots on the left on the toolbar and look for DNA and the BOM, thanks.

Tanyan,

Sorry, I only have time to check here a few times a day. I don't have time to go to websites and dig through mountains of data. If you don't know, just say so.

I am not offended, Its just proper to call a person by there real name using a capitol for there first letter of there name "joe smith" should properly be "Joseph Smith" he is also Joseph Smith the 3rd. From my readings his friends called him "Joseph" not "joe". Thank you for your post. In His Debt, Tanyan.

In his debt...would that be joe smith's debt. That's what worries me about mormons, are you worshipping joe? He seems more important than Jesus and the writings of joe seem more important than those of Jesus, to you mormons.

Read over your posts and see how crazy you are about getting his name exactly the way you think it needs to be. You are almost a mirror image of the muslims who when they say mohhamed (or write it), they always says something like "Bless his holy name" or something like that.

And what about the 8th article of faith for mormons. Doesn't it pretty much put the book of mormon in front of the Bible. It says the Bible is correct with the qualification"as far as it is translated correctly" which leaves it open to anything joe wanted to change in it. Yet the book or moron is just plain ole correct. That worries me about mormonism.

Any organization that elevates a person equal to or above Jesus Christ our Lord, is a cult. Let's face it, in Christianity, it's ALL ABOUT JESUS, that's it, that's just not the way mormonism is.

I believe that joe really could have seen a personage or 2 in a vision and that he may have been re-visited many, many times as he wrote his works. But I believe those visitors were agents of satan, not of our Lord Jesus. The Holy Bible is complete, turn from your erroneous ways lest you spend eternity with your lord, joe smith, where there will be no light.

In all fairness, you may very well be a Christian, but the teachings of mormonism have lead many astray, and continue to be stumbling blocks for many.

In Christ's debt

Tanyan,

This is the Introduction in the Book of Mormon.

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and that a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book"

They clearly put the book of mormon abouve the Holy Bible, and that is heresy.

thanks

Countryboy, I am trying very hard to be Christlike/Charitable/Post in the Spirit of Love to you but it is difficult when you are coming across as the Charactor portrayed as "Biff" in the "Back To The Future" Movie series. My parting ending : "In His Debt" is in reference to THE LORD OF LIFE/MY MASTER JESUS CHRIST, Not Joseph Smith Jr. so please no more mind reading judgements on your part, you are not good at it . Joseph Smith Jr. is not more important than THE Master Christ Jesus in LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice, prat on if you so desire but the fact remains that you are incorrect in your assesment.
As to my supposed "craziness" regarding Joseph Smith Jr. name you have completly missed the point and trying to compare my request with mohammed is also a incorrect assesment.
It is the "Book of Mormon" not the Book of "moron". LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice are studied in both the Bible/BofM and are both used equaly. The Bible is true as far as it is translated correctly, there are dozens of versions on Christian bookshelves. Have you ever talked with a hard core KJV only proponent about any version you use outside the KJV ?, you would be in for the same treatment that you give LDS. Anyway once again I forgive your polemic, may thr spirit of Grace Rain and humble you. In His Debt, Tanyan. P.S, I would urge to go to the above referenced web address and learn somthing of our Faith before attacking/Criticizing. Have a Blessed day.

It is the "Book of Mormon" not the Book of "moron". LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice are studied in both the Bible/BofM and are both used equaly.

That's heresy enough. The Holy Bible has NO EQUAL.

That alone qualifies you as a CULT. Period. You need not go any further, The Book of Moron is just that!

I think I am being very Christlike is treating heritically teachings EXTREMELY harshly. There's no room for that heresy in Christianity. You, like other semi-bible using CULTS, mix in whispers of truth with your heritical teachings, trying to lure people with those half-truths is of your father SATAN. He is the master of lies and had a death grip on your god-man leader joe smith. Get the behind me SATAN! Please leave him and come to the Light!

In Christ name

Beeing shy and wimpy and letting people belief what they want isn't being Christlike, and CountryBoy is not being Biff. Jesus was forceful when necessary.

You both obviously did not read my last post or the ones previously very well [sigh]. Yes CountryBoy is being BIFF in an arrogant self rightious manner, Yes THE HOLY BIBLE contains the WORD OF GOD with that I have no problem, its when it gets to worship status is when problems arise. I worship HE who inspired the Biblical writers of scripture not the scripture itself. Yes Jesus got angry and was bold to those who's Hearts were controled by satan and were blind, but THE LORD OF LIFE did teach many who's Hearts/minds were open and willing to listen[ Humble, Meek, to his Teachings Born out of Love not sarcastic Hatred. In small way I feel what the original Prophets and Apostles went through along with Jesus THE MASTER Himself when confroted with the self rightious Pharissees, Saduccees, Zelots, who attacked them verbaly/physicaly 24/7. Thank you for reminding me once again why I am no longer a evangelical/fundamentalist of your world, its in chaos indeed. You may now attack me personaly again, please try and get over your SDS syndrom that you are suffering from, it would help. In His Debt, Tanyan.

Tanyan,

I would never attack you, my fellow brain-injury person, I love you to much. I attack your cult, that drags people to the depths of hell with it. You may somehow be a real Christian, you certainly know all of the right things to say, but mormonism is a CULT...period.

Maybe God has placed you there to learn enough of the cult of mormonisn to drag others out when your eyes have finally opened.

You've been very gracious in posting plenty of links, here's one I want you to read carefully, hopefully it will help you.

I fear for your very soul.

http://invitation.to/dance/cults-mormon.htm

Love in Christ

Tanyan, is this what you believe? These statements make me want to weep

IS MORMONISM CHRISTIAN?

CHRISTIANITY
God is Spirit. (John 4:24, 1Tim 6:15-16). He is not a man (Num 23:19), and He has always existed as God (Ps. 90:2, 93:2; Mal. 3:6).

MORMONISM
God the Father was once a man like us who progressed to become a God and has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine & Covenants 130:22). God himself has a father, and that god has a father, etc. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 373; Mormon Doctrine, pg. 577).

CHRISTIANITY
There is only one True and Living God and apart from Him there are no other Gods. (Deut. 4:35, 39; Isa. 43:10-11; 44:6,8; Mk. 12:29-34).

MORMONISM
There are many gods, and human beings can become gods and goddesses in the Celestial Kingdom (History of the Church, Vol. 6, pg. 306; Doctrine & Covenants 132:20-21). Those who achieve godhood will have spirit children who will worship and pray to them, just as we pray to God the Father (Gospel Principles, pg. 290).

CHRISTIANITY
Jesus is God and the Creator of all things (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:16).

MORMONISM
Jesus is Lucifer's brother and our elder brother as well. He progressed to godhood, having first been procreated as a spirit child of the Father and a heavenly mother, and later conceived physically by God the Father (Adam God) and an earthly mother (Gospel Principles, pp.15-16).

CHRISTIANITY
We are saved by Grace alone, apart from our own self-righteous works (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:27-28; Titus 3:5)

MORMONISM
We are saved by grace after all we can do (2 Nephi 25:23). Works are necessary for ultimate salvation, which comes by obeying LDS laws and ordinances (Gospel Principles, pp. 291-292).

CHRISTIANITY
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons within the on Triune Godhead.

MORMONISM
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 370; Mormon Doctrine, pg. 319 - 2nd Edition).

Brigham Young said: “Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test.” Journal of Discourses, 17:46

Apostle Orson Pratt: “...convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds.” The Seer, pages 15-16

When was the Priesthood Restored?

David Whitmer, who was a friend of Joseph Smith and one of his witnesses for the Book of Mormon, wrote some revealing information about the restoration of the priesthood:

“This matter of 'priesthood,' since the days of Sydney Rigdon, has been the great hobby and stumbling block of the Latter Day Saints. Priesthood means authority; and authority is the word we should use. I do not think the word priesthood is mentioned in the New Covenant of the Book of Mormon. Authority is the word we used for the first two years in the Church of Christ, and lineal priesthood of the old law being in the church, all originated in the mind of Sydney Rigdon. He explained these things to Brother Joseph in his way, out of the old Scriptures, and got Brother Joseph to inquire, etc. He would inquire, and as mouthpiece speak out the revelations just as they had it fixed in their hearts. As I have said before, according to the desires of the heart, the inspiration comes, but it may be the spirit of man that gives it...This is the way the High Priests and the 'priesthood' as you have it, was introduced into the Church of Christ almost two years after its beginning - and after we had baptized and confirmed about two thousand souls into the church.” (An Address to All Believers In Christ, by David Whitmer, page 64)

David Whitmer also make known that early revelations, purported to be from God, were later altered and changed by inserting the priesthood doctrine into them.

“You have changed the revelations from the way they were first given and as they are today in the Book of Commandments, to support the error of Brother Joseph in taking upon himself the office of Seer to the church. You have changed the revelations to support the error of high priests. You have changed the revelations to support the error of a President of the high priesthood, high counselors, etc. You have altered the revelations to support you in going beyond the plain teachings of Christ in the new covenant part of the Book of Mormon.” Ibid., Pg. 49

In order to see what changed in revelations David Whitmer was speaking of; it would be necessary to compare the original 1833 Book of Commandments with the present day Doctrine and Covenants. This is not so difficult, since the 1833 Book of Commandments has been republished by both the Mormon Church in Utah and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Independence, MO) and can be found in many Ward libraries or Institutes of Religion.

Doctrine and Covenants (D. & C.) Section 2 - this section is not found in the Book of Commandments. The fact that it was missing from the 1833 Book of Commandments indicates a pretentious revelation after the fact, to make it appear that Smith received an early revelation on it.

D. & C. Section 5 - verse 17 is not found in the book of Commandments. This verse predicts the coming priesthood, which if it was not in the original revelation, it was conveniently added to make it appear that God spoke early about the priesthood. (The subheading under Section 5 in the 1973 edition of D & C gives Section 13 as a cross reference to the ordination; showing this refers to the coming priesthood.)

D. & C. Section 7 — verse 5 was altered and verses 6 and 7 were added since 1833. These verses speak of Peter, James, and John possessing the keys of the ministry, which then was passed to Joseph Smith.

D. & C. Section 13 - this entire section is not found in the 1833 Book of Commandments. The date heading this revelation, May 15, 1829, makes an early date for the Aaronic Priesthood. This is what Whitmer said never occurred. This section was not published in the Doctrine and Covenants until 1876.

D. & C. Section 20 — verse 64 was altered and verses 65 through 67 were added since the 1833 edition. This section gives instructions concerning the ordination of church president and high priesthood.

D. & C. Section 27 — verse 5 was altered and verses 6 through 13 and 15 through 17 were added since 1833. All of these verses support the new priesthood that Whitmer said did not exist while he was in the leadership of the church.

CountryBoy, That last 2 posts were a little better, thank you. Once again I refer you to [ http://www.shields-research.org ] read the opening page and click "WEB LINKS" on the toolbar on the left. One of the links is F.A.I.R, you may wish to register on the message board and post your material there and watch what happens ! ] the material responds to all the attacks/criticisms/polemics that are on the site you posted and your comments about the Priesthood and all other polemics. This is how you learn, please do your homework. In His Debt, Tanyan.

the material responds to all the attacks/criticisms/polemics that are on the site you posted and your comments about the Priesthood and all other polemics.

It's an internal attack, then, because he was, in the second to last quotation, quoting from whatever you guys are supposed to believe in....

Read the material, go on the F.A.I.R message board and present your polemic there. In His Debt, Tanyan.