Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:Preterist doctrine lulls one asleep as everything has already happened that has happened.

Here is where I'll disagree. Preterism, when properly understood, promises victory for the church in this age. All other views teach it's defeat. According to these views, the world is going to Hell in a handbasket, and the church is powerless to stop it. The only hope for the church is to get "raptured" out of the mess. (They call this the "Blessed Hope"). Some hope? As one futurist author put it, "It doesn't make any sense to polish the brass on a sinking ship".

I reject any endtimes view that teaches the failure of the Great Commission. The Bible teaches it's success.

puritan lad wrote: Here is where I'll disagree. Preterism, when properly understood, promises victory for the church in this age. All other views teach it's defeat. According to these views, the world is going to Hell in a handbasket, and the church is powerless to stop it. The only hope for the church is to get "raptured" out of the mess. (They call this the "Blessed Hope"). Some hope? As one futurist author put it, "It doesn't make any sense to polish the brass on a sinking ship". I reject any endtimes view that teaches the failure of the Great Commission. The Bible teaches it's success.

It is as you stated, "Preterism, when properly understood..." is what I was getting at. Problem is, many do not properly understand it or how it correctly applies. This not understanding fully can lull many to sleep.

I am a former Preterist and had this view challenged. At one time, I was a prophecy-holoic. I am not a pre-trib, mid trib, post trib person either, which will sound strange to about everyone. Let me try to explain my position and please note, I am not trying to convert anyone over to my point of view here.

The best way to study bible prophecy is to look at all the fulfilled prophecies concerning Israel's first and second scatterings and re-gatherings and the prophecies concerning Jesus.

You will note that several of these passages are placed at random outside the context of a bible chapter — a single verse or several placed together. Other places — like Psalm's the entire Psalm is prophetic. Prophecy is much like a riddle. Ezekiel 17:2-24 gives a direct example of this as well as an interpretation; therefore, the study of prophecy is the exploring of riddles, parables, and enigma's.

Because it is so, I have come to the conclusion to be just a simple doer of the word of God with uncomplicated child like faith and when it comes to prophecy — the only passage that is clear to me of the end times is Luke 21:36.

The manner of escape is unknown to me, when it occurs is unimportant to me. I spent years searching these things out and know all the theories, pros and cons. The pros and cons are not important to me anymore. What is, is simply obeying the injunction from scripture to pray as Jesus said for us to do in Luke 21:36.

Some view this scripture from Luke does not apply as it only applied to an earlier time. No where do I discern that it refers to an earlier time, on the contrary, it seems to apply to all era's of time until it is fulfilled. Therefore, all should pray in the manner Jesus said too. What is wrong with that? So allow me my simple folly in obeying the word of God as best as I can.

I have had the Lord pull the rug out from under me in discipline too many times to be boastful concerning any particular view of end time prophecy. That is why I stick with what Jesus said to do and when examining end time prophecy, I explore these as riddles, parables, and enigmas: a little here and a little there, doing so opens the eyes as the Lord wills, when He so wills, and as He so wills.

Just call me an old fool for Christ
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It is as you stated, "Preterism, when properly understood..." is what I was getting at. Problem is, many do not properly understand it or how it correctly applies. This not understanding fully can lull many to sleep.

This may be true. I would argue that futurism has a tendency to lead to ineptness, becoming tasteless salt (Matthew 5:13). If you were the Devil and wanted to neutralize the church, what better plan could you come up with then to tell Christians that (a) the world is a lost cause, and (b) the end of the world is near? I'll say it has worked like a charm. Gary DeMar has correctly referred to it as "Last Days Madness".

Because it is so, I have come to the conclusion to be just a simple doer of the word of God with uncomplicated child like faith and when it comes to prophecy — the only passage that is clear to me of the end times is Luke 21:36.

I would hold that Luke 21:32 is pretty clear as well.

The manner of escape is unknown to me, when it occurs is unimportant to me. I spent years searching these things out and know all the theories, pros and cons. The pros and cons are not important to me anymore. What is, is simply obeying the injunction from scripture to pray as Jesus said for us to do in Luke 21:36.

This is the big problem today. Christians actually believe that they have to "escape", rather than obey the Great Commission. Oh, they'll minister to individuals, but the idea of an all-encompassing gospel that will "fill the earth...as the waters cover the sea" is foreign to them.

Some view this scripture from Luke does not apply as it only applied to an earlier time. No where do I discern that it refers to an earlier time, on the contrary, it seems to apply to all era's of time until it is fulfilled. Therefore, all should pray in the manner Jesus said too. What is wrong with that? So allow me my simple folly in obeying the word of God as best as I can.

You're certainly allowed, however, I hold that Luke 21:32 is clearly a scripture that "discern(s) that it refers to an earlier time".

I have had the Lord pull the rug out from under me in discipline too many times to be boastful concerning any particular view of end time prophecy. That is why I stick with what Jesus said to do and when examining end time prophecy, I explore these as riddles, parables, and enigmas: a little here and a little there, doing so opens the eyes as the Lord wills, when He so wills, and as He so wills.

We must "occupy till He comes".

PL - I guess it is how one defines escape. If I were to escape in the manner of Ploycarp, then I'd throw myself into the fire. Or as countless other Christians before me, tossed to the lions, or beheaded, I will gladly do so — if this were to be my escape — then Lord prepare me for such a task! Ah — that is the message of end time prophecy — is it not? And Jesus left us a message to pray that we escape and be counted worthy! Prophecy — who in revelations were counted worthy?

Whatever the manner of escape it is — God grant us all the strength to overcome and endure while we occupy till He comes. We are blessed to live in the Western World and not in China or an Islamic nation where Christians escape by various means to the world to come. Great is their testimony! May I be so prepare as they if my occupying cost me my temporary life here on earth!

That is the messure of my simple faith and what it may cost me. Is it yours? If not or if so - then pray to be counted worthy!
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B. W.,

This illustrates the biggest difference between us as far as prophecy goes, and why it is important. While I pray that my faith will hold in such tribulation, I do not expect to ever find out. You look forward to escape, I look forward to dominion.

Futurists look forward to a future Great Tribulation where the Devil takes over the world. They are disappointed when they find out the the Great Tribulation is past history and that the Devil was defeated at Calvary. I don't believe that we can just write off the clear time frame references and remain true to the scriptures.

Preterist look forward to the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Psalm 22:27-28), the conversion of both Jew and Gentile (Romans 11:25-26), followed by a time where the gospel permeates the earth (Habakkuk 2:14, Matthew 5:5) before the Second Advent (2 Peter 3:10), which will bring an end to History. On this last day will be a resurrection (John 6:39-40), and a final judgment (Matthew 25:46). We believe in one Second Advent, not two or three.

In short, preterists believe that the gospel will transform planet earth, that Jesus gave His church a commandment to "make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19). We believe that Christ died for the world, and will not settle for anything less than what He paid for. Futurists, however you slice it, believe that the church will fail in this task.

puritan lad wrote:We believe that Christ died for the world, and will not settle for anything less than what He paid for.

Erm, I thought you believed in Limited Atonement.

puritan lad wrote:B. W.,

This illustrates the biggest difference between us as far as prophecy goes, and why it is important. While I pray that my faith will hold in such tribulation, I do not expect to ever find out. You look forward to escape, I look forward to dominion.

Futurists look forward to a future Great Tribulation where the Devil takes over the world. They are disappointed when they find out the the Great Tribulation is past history and that the Devil was defeated at Calvary. I don't believe that we can just write off the clear time frame references and remain true to the scriptures.

Preterist look forward to the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Psalm 22:27-28), the conversion of both Jew and Gentile (Romans 11:25-26), followed by a time where the gospel permeates the earth (Habakkuk 2:14, Matthew 5:5) before the Second Advent (2 Peter 3:10), which will bring an end to History. On this last day will be a resurrection (John 6:39-40), and a final judgment (Matthew 25:46). We believe in one Second Advent, not two or three.

In short, preterists believe that the gospel will transform planet earth, that Jesus gave His church a commandment to "make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19). We believe that Christ died for the world, and will not settle for anything less than what He paid for. Futurists, however you slice it, believe that the church will fail in this task.

Great profound points PL and I agree! But Jesus also tells us to pray to escape. The manner of escape is the enigma of this prophecy: would it refer to death for the cause of Christ and escape into the loving kingdom of God? Could refer to my preferable manner of escape — old age — life lived full occupying till He comes in a nice Western County? Or the possible rapture at some point in time? I do not know. Jesus says to pray — so I will.

That's the enigma of this prophecy. It is best to obey Jesus and pray. The cost of occupation can be very high; however, I am more of an Evangelist at heart and prefer the offensive rather than occupation.

Occupation also runs the risk of a great temptation, the same which Jesus was tempted in Luke 4:5-8. “Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'” NKJV

I prefer to serve God and not go after the kingdoms of this world. Serving God permits me to seek after His elect for the true kingdom to come.

You see, I trust in the sovereign Lord of Host and commend my life into His hands: The hands of an ever kind providence. Though He may slay me — yet I shall praise him. May He desire for me to pass away from old age in a blest peaceful county — so be it. If He desires to wisk me away to safety in time of dire distress — so be it.

What ever He has for me in the future to come — I'll pray to be counted worthy for its task. I'll pray for His escape however He commands it to be and wills it to happen. I have a simple faith in the Lord. I am no coward. Cowards cannot trust in the hands of an ever kind providence. This is not hyper-Calvinistic fatalism either. God has granted us all many manners to escape to Him and perform His will while we are here upon this earth: that's the enigma - you even mentioned many of these in your discourse and I agree.

I have found great rest and comfort in Our Lord Jesus Christ that Petreism, dispensationalism, millennialism, pre-trib. Mid trib, post trib, and the other end time prophetic hypothesis cannot give. I found a rest in the Hands of God's ever-kind providence and will continue to pray to be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and to stand before the son of man however He leads and directs. I can do no more or no less. So please bear with this old fool for Christ! We are on the same side!
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couple of literal fulfillments of bible prophecy by Jesus

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zech 9:9

Matthew 21 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done, that it might be spoken by the prophet, ie Zech 9:9

Psalm 22

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and feet.

Are you going to say this is symbolism for destruction of a leader?

No it was literally fulfilled

Oops another one from 22
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Futurists look forward to a future Great Tribulation where the Devil takes over the world. They are disappointed when they find out the the Great Tribulation is past history and that the Devil was defeated at Calvary. I don't believe that we can just write off the clear time frame references and remain true to the scriptures.


Then if Devil was defeated at Calvary why does Revelation 17 say "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:We believe that Christ died for the world, and will not settle for anything less than what He paid for.

Erm, I thought you believed in Limited Atonement.

I do. I'm not a universalists, even after the "millennium".

Do you believe in a literal beast with literally 7 heads and literally ten horns literally rising out of a literal sea?

How about Christ with a sword literally defeating the nations with a literal sword sticking out of His mouth?

If you like everything literal, start with Matthew 24:34. Everything works pretty well from there.

puritan lad wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:We believe that Christ died for the world, and will not settle for anything less than what He paid for.

Erm, I thought you believed in Limited Atonement.

I do. I'm not a universalists, even after the "millennium".

So in fact you don't believe that Christ died for the world, and you believe that he is content to settle for considerably less than what he paid for.

I believe that the elect shall inherit the earth, that the earth will be filled with His knowledge. Those who are rebels will be cast into Hell.

Let me state these scriptures as reasons for my leaving the branch of Preterism I once followed:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Luke 4:5-8. “Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'” NKJV

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Pharisees; but now My kingdom is not from here.” NKJV

Luke 17:20-21 “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!': For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” NKJV

There are many prophecies that have not come to pass — they did not all end during 70 AD. The Church will not be defeated by the Devil because the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. The actual battle of Armageddon has not been fought yet. The wrath of God has not been poured out on the earth yet. Jesus Christ has not yet returned in physical form to reign.

God's prophetic purpose is not yet made as Isaiah 65:17 states, "I will create new heavens and a new earth. The things that have happened before will not be remembered.” NIV

Scripture Quotes wrote: Revelations 21:1 states, “I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth were completely gone. There was no longer any sea” NIV.

None of these things occurred in 70 AD. What I find as the error of Preterism I once believed is its hope of offering up the kingdoms of this world to Christ. The world will pass away and will be burnt with fire of God's wrath. This did not happen in 70 AD as 2 Peter 3:3-18 clearly states.

Scripture Quotes wrote: 2 Peter 3:3-13 “First of all, here is what you must understand. In the last days people will make fun of the truth. They will laugh at it. They will follow their own evil longings. They will say, "Where is this 'return' he promised? Everything goes on in the same way it has since our people of long ago died. In fact, it has continued that way since God first created everything.

Long ago, God's word brought the heavens into being. His word separated the earth from the waters. And the waters surrounded it. But those people forget things like that on purpose. The waters also flooded the world of that time. It was destroyed. By God's word the heavens and earth of today are being reserved for fire. They are being kept for the day when God will judge. Then ungodly people will be destroyed.

Dear friends, here is one thing you must not forget. With the Lord a day is like a thousand years. And a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow to keep his promise. He is not slow in the way some people understand it. He is patient with you. He doesn't want anyone to be destroyed. Instead, he wants all people to turn away from their sins.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar. Fire will destroy everything in them. God will judge the earth and everything in it. So everything will be destroyed. And what kind of people should you be?

You should lead holy and godly lives. Live like that as you look forward to the day of God. It will make the day come more quickly. On that day fire will destroy the heavens. Its heat will melt everything in them. But we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth. Godliness will make its home there. All of this is in keeping with God's promise.” NIV

Yes, we are all called to look forward to the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Psalm 22:27-28), the conversion of both Jew and Gentile (Romans 11:25-26), followed by a time where the gospel permeates the earth (Habakkuk 2:14, Matthew 5:5) before the Second Advent (2 Peter 3:10), which will bring an end to History. On this last day will be a resurrection (John 6:39-40), and a final judgment (Matthew 25:46). The gospel will transform planet earth, and Jesus gave His church a commandment to "make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19).

I do not believe the Devil will take over the world. Prophecy remains an enigma, parts do correlate to past events and others refer to the future. Because the past reference are clear does not mean all end time prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. What some people refer to as the great tribulation has not occurred for the simple fact that the earth has not been destroyed by fire and no new heaven's and earth currently exist. Evil still stalks the land. Ungodly and anti-Christ ideas and philosophies are intensifying, even in the peaceful Western Lands. Times will get rough but this does not mean the Church will be defeated. Yes, the old devil was defeated at the time of the cross but he still stalks about like a roaring lion.

The dominion promised by Preterism will come at a great cost when followers will awake someday in a time of great distress. Handing over the world to Christ is a pipe dream since Christ will destroy it. That is why I left the branch of Preterism I once espoused.

I am not telling anyone to leave their doctrine of Preterism as I did. All Preterist have the right to believe their doctrine of end time prophecy. Preterism, Full or Partial, Hyper or Moderate, is not an essential doctrine of the Christian church, nor are the other end time isms.

This is why it is best to trust the Lord Jesus Christ when He commands us all to pray as He does so in Luke 21:36 and to be found doers of the word and commend ourselves into the hands of the Lord's ever-kind providence in faith as Hebrews 11: 13-16 declares.

Scripture Quotes wrote: Hebrews 11:13-16 “All those people were still living by faith when they died. They didn't receive the things God had promised. They only saw them and welcomed them from a long way off. They openly said that they were outsiders and strangers on earth. People who say things like that show that they are looking for a country of their own. What if they had been thinking of the country they had left? Then they could have returned to it. Instead, they longed for a better country. They wanted one in heaven. So God is pleased when they call him their God. In fact, he has prepared a city for them.” NIV

I deeply apologize to all Preterist for not living up to your standards of end time prophecy; I seek a far better country waiting for us all who follow Christ. You will never convince me to convert to your views nor will I ever attempt to convert you to mine.

We are on the same side for the cause of Christ. He who is for us is not against us. Do not cast away fellow believers for minor non-essential end time doctrine and this goes for all sides of the end-time prophecy isms out there: don't desert your fellow members in the Body of Christ.

There are many members but not all have the same function. The eye should stop berating the hand because it doesn't have the views of the eye. Likewise the hand should stop scoffing at the eye because the eye does not handle things as a hand does. I Corinthians 12:11, 20-27
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B. W. wrote:There are many prophecies that have not come to pass — they did not all end during 70 AD. The Church will not be defeated by the Devil because the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. The actual battle of Armageddon has not been fought yet. The wrath of God has not been poured out on the earth yet. Jesus Christ has not yet returned in physical form to reign.

Let me address these...

1.) Preterism (not hyper-preterism) does not teach that ALL prophecies came to pass in 70 AD, only those of the Olivet Discourse and most of Revelation. There is no need to believe in a future tribulation period, future world dictator, future Jewish Temple, etc. When Jesus says that these prophecies would be fulfilled within that generation (Matthew 24:34), "shortly" (Revelation 1:1), were "near" (Revelation 1:3), and were "about to take place" (Revelation 1:19), we take Him seriously on those counts.

2.) The Battle of Armageddon was fought in 70 AD.

3.) The wrath of God was poured out on the "land" (Matthew 23:31-36)

4.) Christ is currently ruling and reigning. He does not need to reign from earthly Jerusalem. When He returns, History will end (2 Peter 3:10).

None of these things occurred in 70 AD. What I find as the error of Preterism I once believed is its hope of offering up the kingdoms of this world to Christ...The dominion promised by Preterism will come at a great cost when followers will awake someday in a time of great distress. Handing over the world to Christ is a pipe dream since Christ will destroy it. That is why I left the branch of Preterism I once espoused.

Sounds like you were a hyper-preterist. It is good that you left that branch. As for Christ having dominion on this earth, this is hardly a "pipe dream". It is a promise clearly spelled out in scripture and has been the dominant belief in the church until modern times. Do you pray the Lord's prayer? Do you mean it when you ask Him "Thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven"? How about these words?

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of his love.

Sounds like a wonderful promise, right? However, this is not about Christ's Second Advent, but about His First Advent. It's a verse to the well-known Christmas Carol "Joy To The World".

How about the prophecies in the Psalms (The hymnbook of the Historic Church)?

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. (Psalm 22:27)

For evildoers will be cut off,
But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the earth.
Yet a little while, and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place, and he will not be.
But the meek will inherit the earth,
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity. (Psalm 37:9-11)

Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought desolations in the earth.
He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariots with fire.
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth. (Psalm 46:8-10)

O clap your hands, all peoples;
Shout to God with the voice of joy.
For the LORD Most High is to be feared,
A great King over all the earth.
He subdues peoples under us,
And nations under our feet. (Psalm 47:1-3)

All the earth will worship Thee,
And will sing praises to Thee;
They will sing praises to Thy name. (Psalm 66:4)

He will rule from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
The nomads of the desert will bow before Him;
And His enemies will lick the dust.
The kings of Tarshish and of the islands will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba will offer gifts.
All kings will bow down before Him;
All nations will serve Him. (Psalm 72:8-11)

All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship be
fore Thee, O LORD;
And they shall glorify Thy name. (Psalm 86:9)

All the kings of the earth will give thanks to Thee, O LORD,
When they have heard the words of Thy mouth.
And they will sing of the ways of the LORD;
For great is the glory of the LORD. (Psalm 138:4-5)

Let the godly ones exult in glory;
Let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishment on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the judgment written;
This is an honor for all His godly ones.
Praise the LORD! (Psalm 149:5-9)

The purpose of the church is to be light and salt to the earth (Matthew 5:13) not to look to escape from some tribulation period that has already happened. The Kingdom of God is a present reality (Matthew 16:28). It will grow like leaven until the whole lump is leavened. (Matthew 13:33) It is like a rock, which will grow like a mountain until if fills the whole earth (Daniel 2:34-35) as the waters cover the sea (Habakkuk 2:14). This is the Bible's promise of the future, not the common, modern day "chicken little" doctrine.