marijuana/prostitution

[Canuckster1127]

I certainly wouldn't support it's legalization. I was merely saying "if". In response to Charlotte's post.

Sorry. Quick on the draw. But it is a legitimate general question for any who would support legalization. Decriminalization reduces crime only by changing the definition of crime. Legalized drugs and prostitution only makes the state a partner in unethical or immoral behavior and by reducing the barriers puts temptation in front of many who might not otherwise have fallen.

[charlottecowell]

hmm...I knew I'd be letting myself in for this, I don't think you even understood my comment as you seem to think I'm saying prostitution is a marvellous thing, when my main point in arguing for its legalisation was to protect the women who have to do it! Why be so quick to judge?

Nothing much was said about marijuana, I guess the hypocritical 'drugs are bad, alcohol is good' problem we have in society can be left aside for now. So, onto the whores:

First off, I view prostitutes as sad, ostracised people, controlled by pimps, not as something evil, and see things like lap dancing/porn as being more damaging for society as that is pure titillation and maybe leads to more sex crimes.

Secondly, I haven't said one thing that is anti men or disrespectful to them, I have no issues with men whatsoever and was amazed by that comment, I'm simply acknowledging that some people end up in very unhappy, sexless marriages and others never have the chance to experience closeness with another person. In my opinion a prostitute offers a service to these people and far be it from ME to judge what others need to get by in life, so long as they don't actually hurt anyone else.

As for adultery, I stand my original comment that a full-blown affair is far more damaging than a prostitute - I know what would be more likely to break my heart. Of course, in an ideal world, no-one would need or want to visit prostitutes, take drugs, drink themselves to death, feel alienated from society or other such things, but we don't live in an ideal world. Isn't that obvious, do I really need to spell that out??

Have any of you been to Thailand and seen how they take 8 or 9 year old girls from their parents' villages to be sold into sexual slavery for the benefit of Western tourists? I have - and sorry to be so blunt, but life isn't always beautiful - I would prefer to see those men serviced at home, not using a few developing countries as the brothels of the world.

I've also been to Holland (my partner is Dutch), where prostitution is legal and over 80 % of visitors to Amsterdam's red light district are tourists. The home population can hardly be bothered to go there - sex is no big deal, it is not considered dirty or taboo, so the pull of the red light district holds no mystery and little temptation. In fact, at the end of the day - so far as I can tell based on my male friends' views - most men do NOT feel like going to prostitutes full stop, and legalizing it wouldn't make it any the more tempting. To assume that it would is doing men a bigger dis-service than anything I've said.

I do not wish to comment on whether prostitution is morally right or wrong - I'm not a moraliser about anything, God is the judge, not me - simply that it occurs and to legalise it would help to bring it under control, take some of the violence out of it and offer the women some protection. Can you not see that unless they were desperate they wouldn't do this, with the possible exception of 'high class' (ie, expensive) hookers, who frankly are no worse than women who pretend NOT to be prostitutes but wouldn't actually have sex with any man (let alone marry him!!) unless he were rich?

I realise of course that we have a significant element of society that is dog eat dog and doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything, which acts mainly in accordance with their base instincts and abuses every privilege. Will legalising prostitution make a blind bit of difference to them, given that they couldn't care less about their 'spirits' anyway? Somehow I doubt it.

And what about Mary Magdalen - she became Jesus's most beloved disciple - what would you have done, spat in her face and called her a whore? Let's be honest here, did he care primarily about what she'd done with her body, or did he care about the beauty of her soul and ability to love him more than anyone? (I realise that there is no certainty as to whether Mary really was a prostitute, btw, but the fact remains that in our accepted bible she was portrayed as being so).

Prostitution is the oldest profession, but as far as I can tell, the institution of marriage has never been more under threat than it is today....where is the evidence to show that prostitutes 'undermine our families and society'?

You really don't need to 'remind' me about the body of Christ, I know as much and as little about that as anyone else...

[Canuckster1127]

hmm...I knew I'd be letting myself in for this, I don't think you even understood my comment as you seem to think I'm saying prostitution is a marvellous thing, when my main point in arguing for its legalisation was to protect the women who have to do it! Why be so quick to judge?

I understood your comment. I disagree with it. Judgement of sin and love for the sinner, as well as a recognition that we are all sinners and in need of God's Grace is an appropriate Biblical response.

Nothing much was said about marijuana, I guess the hypocritical 'drugs are bad, alcohol is good' problem we have in society can be left aside for now. So, onto the whores:

I understand the position on Marijauna and i understand the arguments related to alcohol. I think you're on better ground there perhaps although I don't believe that moral relativism in that regard is a sound argument. If alcohol is worse than pot, which is debatable, I'd be more inclined to see the argument for prohibition than license, but I understand the difficulties with both.

First off, I view prostitutes as sad, ostracised people, controlled by pimps, not as something evil, and see things like lap dancing/porn as being more damaging for society as that is pure titillation and maybe leads to more sex crimes.

I see every person involved as someone Christ's loves and in need of his Grace, just as I am.

Secondly, I haven't said one thing that is anti men or disrespectful to them, I have no issues with men whatsoever and was amazed by that comment, I'm simply acknowledging that some people end up in very unhappy, sexless marriages and others never have the chance to experience closeness with another person. In my opinion a prostitute offers a service to these people and far be it from ME to judge what others need to get by in life, so long as they don't actually hurt anyone else.

I see that statement as more refecetive of a post-modern viewpoint than a Biblical one.

As for adultery, I stand my original comment that a full-blown affair is far more damaging than a prostitute - I know what would be more likely to break my heart. Of course, in an ideal world, no-one would need or want to visit prostitutes, take drugs, drink themselves to death, feel alienated from society or other such things, but we don't live in an ideal world. Isn't that obvious, do I really need to spell that out??

I see God's plan for physical intimacy tied to marriage and anything outside of that as lust. We indeed do not live in an ideal world; we live in a "Sinful" one and Sin is the appropriate word for this situation.

Have any of you been to Thailand and seen how they take 8 or 9 year old girls from their parents' villages to be sold into sexual slavery for the benefit of Western tourists? I have - and sorry to be so blunt, but life isn't always beautiful - I would prefer to see those men serviced at home, not using a few developing countries as the brothels of the world.

This is a problem, however it is not just tourists who fuel that trade, there is internal demand as well and there is no strong corellative study that indicates the proposed course of action would solve that problem or stop at that solution. Many of the customers in that setting come from European countries with legalized services just such as you indicate and yet the trade continues.

I've also been to Holland (my partner is Dutch), where prostitution is legal and over 80 % of visitors to Amsterdam's red light district are tourists. The home population can hardly be bothered to go there - sex is no big deal, it is not considered dirty or taboo, so the pull of the red light district holds no mystery and little temptation. In fact, at the end of the day - so far as I can tell based on my male friends' views - most men do NOT feel like going to prostitutes full stop, and legalizing it wouldn't make it any the more tempting. To assume that it would is doing men a bigger dis-service than anything I've said.

What is the state of marriage as an institution in those same countries? Do you think there's a tie to any of the situations you've cited, even assuming the situation is as benign as you're attempting to represent it?

I do not wish to comment on whether prostitution is morally right or wrong - I'm not a moraliser about anything, God is the judge, not me - simply that it occurs and to legalise it would help to bring it under control, take some of the violence out of it and offer the women some protection. Can you not see that unless they were desperate they wouldn't do this, with the possible exception of 'high class' (ie, expensive) hookers, who frankly are no worse than women who pretend NOT to be prostitutes but wouldn't actually have sex with any man (let alone marry him!!) unless he were rich?

Prostitution is morally wrong. Appealing to other moral wrongs may be a fair statement and their certainly is a stigma in western civilization that appears irrational, but that doesn't require moral relativism and permissiveness in response by elevating tolerance above sound judgement.

I realise of course that we have a significant element of society that is dog eat dog and doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything, which acts mainly in accordance with their base instincts and abuses every privilege. Will legalising prostitution make a blind bit of difference to them, given that they couldn't care less about their 'spirits' anyway? Somehow I doubt it.

The primary issue in all of this is Man's sinful nature and public policy doesn't and can't address that, no doubt.

And what about Mary Magdalen - she became Jesus's most beloved disciple - what would you have done, spat in her face and called her a whore? Let's be honest here, did he care primarily about what she'd done with her body, or did he care about the beauty of her soul and ability to love him more than anyone? (I realise that there is no certainty as to whether Mary really was a prostitute, btw, but the fact remains that in our accepted bible she was portrayed as being so).

Christ did in fact model love for the Sin while still maintaining the standard he demonstrated in the case of the woman taken in adultery. Christ defended her but he also stated to her after her accusers left, "Go and sin no more."

Prostitution is the oldest profession, but as far as I can tell, the institution of marriage has never been more under threat than it is today....where is the evidence to show that prostitutes 'undermine our families and society'?

It's a complicated correlation but again I ask you, do you believe the institution of marriage is stronger or weaker in countries with legalized prostititution? Do you have hard evidence? I believe, the evidence is against it.

You really don't need to 'remind' me about the body of Christ, I know as much and as little about that as anyone else..

So, everyone knows the same?

[charlottecowell]

It's not about everyone knowing the same, I said that in response to the preaching tone someone used, which i can't stand, I find it so patronising and holier than thou, a few steps removed from public stoning - I'd say it's the main reason people fall away from the church, together with the hypocrisy (real or perceived).

Regarding the adultery issue (and I can see why this is an issue of course), there is the other point that not everyone going to a prostitute is married.... what about the single people? Are they not better off paying for sex (if they can't be celibate) than running lose 'defiling virgins', to put it crudely....

At the end of the day people do the best they can (one would hope) but now and again we all fall into sin to a greater or lesser degree depending on our characters and beliefs. Like it or not, there is a significant market for prostitution and I really don't think it is helpful for the well-being of the women involved (the slaves for heaven's sake!) to keep it as a criminal offence. I'd rather see a woman who's reached her own decision become a prostitute than a teenage girl trying to find food for her family in Russia and ending up kidnapped, locked in a bedsit in London to be beaten up, raped and otherwise abused because of people who can't and won't control their carnal desires.

From our happy, blessed lives where we have the luxury of being 'spiritual' then yes, the idea of prostitution is pretty alien and abhorrent. But what about everyone else? They don't see things in this way, they see a restrictive society where the church appears irrelevant to their lives - how can we expect them to listen to the word of God if it seems to them that God knows nothing about the world they have to live in? We have to find ways of speaking in a language they understand and high handed moralising simply is not it.

Whatever we think, there is obviously a huge market for prostitutes that will never go away - there's no point in denying it, we have to tackle it in a practical way to lessen the overall evil. We can shout and scream all we want that it's a sin, and in the meantime the porn mags will keep being made and the guys will want some action. No country, however draconian its laws, has succeeded in eradicating prostiution. Let's not sweep this under the carpet, let's take the matter in hand and adopt a rational attitude that non religious people can relate to and benefit from - let's remove the burden of shame which does so much to keep people in the dark. People are more likely to turn to God if they don't feel like criminals in their everyday lives, which just perpetuates a state of rebellion.

I'm not sure about the statistics for marriage / prostitution, but I do know that when it was legalised in Melbourne the streets became a lot 'cleaner'. Speaking for England, the instiution of marriage has never been in a worse state - people get married too quickly and then don't take their vows seriously. Some people marry the first person they ever sleep with then wonder later in life what they've been missing.....perhaps if they had an outlet for these natural but unsocial 'sinful' desires the marriages would, in the end, last longer?

There is also the issue of rape. Would legalising prostitution make rape less likely to occur? I think it would.

[Canuckster1127]

Charlotte,

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I understand some of your points and at the risk of sounding preachy I'll just summarize what I have to say here.

1. I agree this is an area where the Church doesn't do a great job and there are stigmas attached to these behaviors that are out of proportion with other forms of sin that apparently get a pass. Gluttony and greed for example are much more socially acceptable forms of sin.

2. I have some concern with recent Christian political movements that have sought to legislate morality in terms of seeking political power almost to the exclusion of spreading the gospel. I think God's prescribed method is to see a heart change bring about behavioral change and that requires reaching people with the Gospel and allowing the Holy Spirit to do His regenerative work. Political power is a very poor substitute for that.

3. Recognizing those two things above, I still think there is a danger in rationalizing away sin and in the context of a democracy, I believe Christians do have a responsibility to vote their consciences in accordance with the moral code they believe to be Biblical. The responsibility doesn't end there however. It's not enough to simply stand against sinful and self-destructive behavior. There needs to be constructive outreach to connect with and assist those people whose lives are ruined by the existence of these institutions, legal or not. Jesus spent his time with the people who were the outcasts. He certainly did especially love and reach out to those that the best religious people of his day shunned. I'm with you on that observation.

4. Governments are not Christian in the most narrow definition of that word. People are. I can accept that governments may legalize and categorize things in a manner different than Christianity espouses. I still believe in the context of a democracy that Christians have a responsibility to vote their consciences in this regard. Adopting a purely rational, (assuming such a thing is possible which is debatable in and of itself) to focus upon pragmatism is contrary to what I believe Christ has called us to be as salt and light in this world. We certainly need to avoid self-righteous phariseeism, but that doesn't mean we sanction sin. It's a difficult balance to strike, but we must attempt to stand for a Biblical moral standard in my opinion, or we're simply paying lipservice to the truth and not walking in it.

I'll try and see if I can find some corellative studies in terms of rape and legalized prostitution and see if the numbers match your hypothesis.

Regards,

Bart

[cslewislover]

Bart, I very much agree with you. Jesus gives people the power to not sin, as I've experienced in my own life. By legalizing so many things that God tells us are sinful, we are saying they're OK. If people think they're OK, then why would they ever repent of them to God? I think as Christians we are to love and help these people as much as possible, and hopefully they'll accept the Lord and other doors will be opened for them. There are things that are sinful that seem natural, like having multiple sex partners. God doesn't tells us it's OK to practice these natural urges because they're natural, instead, he tells us to repent of them. As Christians, we're not being hypocritcal or mean to say these things, since we're just repeating what God has told us. To make laws making it OK to sin is almost like denying people their free will. Remember, the Law originally given to Moses was given so that people would be aware of their sin. If they never repent of their sin and accept Christ as their savior, they won't be accepted by him into heaven. This would be a very unloving result. And Charlotte, I have been aware of the things you wrote about for quite some time.

[charlottecowell]

The 'problem' I think - perhaps - is that we all have free will and morality from a societal point of view is relative in the sense that it's subject to the moral code of the individuals and groups who make up that society. We might think our way is right - and maybe it actually is - but not everyone is in agreement on this point and this world belongs equally to us all. Peronally I would like nothing more (from a political stand point) than a Utopian state, but realistically, I'm fairly sure this won't happen for the forseeable future...no need to say why, I think we all know those answers.

I do totally see your point that it is essential to have a firm, agreed and institutional 'yes' and 'no' regarding certain things, which in general pertain to the 10 commandments. It is the job of the Church to take this stance, but to forgive and understand where individuals fall short of the ideal, provided people are not committing true atrocities, of course. And agreed, we cannot expect society ever to be Utopian unless we have a clear idea of what that entails, there does need to be a strong moral framework. In this respect - this ideal state - you would not have prostitutes or drug dealers - and that would be because no man or woman would feel the need or desire to use prostitutes or drugs. So yes, 'good', righteous laws based on a Christian moral code are to be upheld, but even more fundamental to a Utopian society is a population so in tune with the common goal, the worship of God and rightful living, that it needs no proscribed law. I think Jesus had issue with the law for a reason and again, I think we all know why. Right living needs to be voluntary and all people capable of self-policing - responsible, selfless, unashamed, content, peaceful, humble, hard-working, non-egotistical, rational without losing their passion and spiritual in outlook rather than materialistic. Totally loving and giving....angelic or saintly, even. Better than merely human.

How hard is it to be this way day in, day out for one person, let alone a whole world? I don't believe that I'm fundamentally an 'evil' person (beyond the fact we're all animals without the light of God's love) but I sure do have bad days, days where I do things I'm ashamed of or I knew I could have done differently, hurt people unnecessarily, said stupid things, been lazy, greedy, the lot - multiply that by several billion and bingo: welcome to Planet Earth! And while I understand that in this respect the Christian needs to turn the other cheek and rest assured that they are 'doing the right thing' even if no-one else is, personally I don't feel I can rest or feel happy in my 'enlightened' state unless I know that most of the rest of the world is safe as well....if that involves me getting off my cloud and trying to help them sort things out, then so be it - anything to prevent a total rift in society with the 'righteous' on one side and 'the rest' on the other. We can't live in this way - who would want a minority in paradise while the heaving throng exists in burning, hellish chaos beyond that? I guess it would be fine as long as you didn't go near the borders and had no opportunity to hear the others screaming, or maybe God has plans for us to forget....

Sometimes there is no option but to be pragmatic, and in this case we are talking about basic improvement, reducing overall impact of wrong-doings in the maximum number of areas, and I do think that prostitution is something we can turn a blind eye to for now, for want of a better way of putting it, there are greater ills to tackle. Achieving the ideal can be the next phase and the age-old, deeper than the oceans question of sexuality v spirituality can be the final debate; that is the real issue here, not the question of whether some people pay for sex....

[zoegirl]

It boggles my mind to think thta by legalizing prostitution that we are protecting those women. All we are doing is preventing physical damage (and I seriously doubt it would curb that) . For an example, there are strict regulations on porn actors and actresses that are supposed to prevent disease transmission but there are MANY MANY producers that violoate this.

And frankly, by allowing it to even occur means that we are allowing these women to live in a lifestyle that is hurtful and degrading emotionally, personally, and spiritually. Frankly a victim can be stricken by disease, be cured and her trauma to her soul and person are harder to heal. If we truly wanted to protect these women and children we would have tougher laws on the pimps and johns.

[BavarianWheels]

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If we worried less about the the making of "immoral" and/or "unhealthful" acts illegal and payed more attention to educating those which God has given us to raise, we may be better off. It is my standing that the more we fight to bring our world to a place of "better" ethics or morals, (our own Christian ideas) the longer it will take for Christ to come and clean this place up and take His people home.

Legalizing prostitution or drugs would do no more harm to this world than alcohol and cigarette smoking has already done.

Just my two pennies.
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[zoegirl]

See, to me, this argument is just like saying "Gee, lets just protect the rape victims from disease" or "child abuse is going to happen, lets just make sure that the child's health is taken care of" Prostitution is damaging to the soul, that prostitute's ability to have healthy personal, spiritual, and emotional relationships is fundmentally damaged.

By declaring that prostitution is legal does not take into account that these women would still be abused (mentally, emotionally as well as physically) but now we would have no legal way to seek justice.

And how in the world would legalizing prostitution stop or decrease adultery?!?!?

[BavarianWheels]

See, to me, this argument is just like saying "Gee, lets just protect the rape victims from disease" or "child abuse is going to happen, lets just make sure that the child's health is taken care of"

Oh...I thought you were talking about prostitution. I stand on my comment for prostitution. I never mentioned rape and/or child abuse.

Prostitution is damaging to the soul, that prostitute's ability to have healthy personal, spiritual, and emotional relationships is fundmentally damaged.

True...but same goes true of the already legal ability to consume alcohol at whatever rate one wishes as long as a few rules are followed in doing so.

By declaring that prostitution is legal does not take into account that these women would still be abused (mentally, emotionally as well as physically) but now we would have no legal way to seek justice.

I suppose we all have to live with the consequences of our own actions...aye?

And how in the world would legalizing prostitution stop or decrease adultery?!?!?

It wouldn't...point being neither does making it illegal else this conversation would be quite silent and/or one-sided.
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[zoegirl]

First of all, you mistake my logic for an example. I said the logic of legalizing prostitution would be the same in legalizing rape or abuse. Letting a sinful action be considered just for the sake of physical safety. The case for legalizing prostitution wanders into the assumption that physical damage is the worst damage and that as long as we take care of them physically everything will be all right. My point was to show the ridiculous logic by using rape and abuse as the action instead of prostituion.

Secondly, do you really suppose that most of these women have chosen their profession?!?!?! One could make a case, I suppose, for the high price call girls, but what is the adage about just the price changing? They are still selling their bodies.

Most, however, entered out of desperation, abuse (psychological or physical or sexual). They have become so cynical they have no sense of what they are doing is out of the usual or wrong, in some cases. They have become immune to the injury done to themselves, and in some sense, wouldn't society become immune to the level of sin that takes place? As soon as we establish that this is "all right" is own justice system, we have admitted that sexual intercourse is not as special as the Lord established in the beginning of creation.

In society should we not uphold the best of actions?

Paul points in Cotinthians that sexual sin is unique in sinful actions because the sin affects the totality of the person. And we as a society, if we hold ourselves to be at all Christian in foundational principles (even if we do not establish this as our religion), if we at all hold the best for our society, shouldn't we establish that this as an essential action is wrong! Establish laws to take care of women, establish tougher laws on pimps and john I can understand. But letting this abuse continue? Absolutely not!!

You keep bringing up alcohol and yet even in alcohol, one is drinking and consuming alcohol in one's own body. In prostitution you are engaging in an action that affects another person. You can get yourself drunk out of your skull and you are really simply affecting yourself. And that *is* your choice. But Get behind the wheel of the car, or drink underage and there ARE legal ramifications.

Become invovled in prostitution and you have essentially lost yourself. And really, let's think about why we would even legitimize this act....so that some men can get their jollies?!?!? Yes, let's essentially say that it is a just action to take advantage of abused women or desperate women so that some men get their kicks with no care in the world for these women. Yes, let's do this.

Sorry fo rthe sarcasm, but I find this relatism repugnant

[BavarianWheels]

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Maybe you assume that because I side with "allowing" prostitution that I somehow condone it or it's implications/consequences. I don't.

However, it is obvious that making prostitution illegal does nothing to deter women from engaging in this oldest of professions in order to make money at their wits end. Sin and it's consequence is ugly no matter if it's stealing a penny or prostitution...both have the same outcome to the unrepentant soul. Both damn the guilty to "life" apart from God...meaning death.
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[zoegirl]

I understand that you don't condone it.

[BavarianWheels]

I understand that you don't condone it.

Good...larger picture is that marijuana and prostitution hurt only those people that partake in it...marijuana being even less harmful (if at all) than legal cigarettes/cigars. You'd be hard pressed to find one prostitute that is ignorant to the moral and legal implications of their chosen profession. Fact is, the income far outweighs the consequences in the here and now and that's what the prostitute is trying to get through.
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