Evidence for God from Science

Welocome Zach and Blood. Glad you're both here.

cheezerrox wrote:So, while I've been here for a little while, I never properly introduced myself.

My name's Zach, and I'm from New Jersey in the US. I was born and raised a Christian, and always mentally accepted the "religion," but never actually accepted God Himself until about a year and a half ago when I started reading the Bible. I was kind of a punk, lol, with issues with a lot of things, including school, weed, and alcohol, but the Spirit's got me more in shape now.

Denominationally, I go to a Baptist church that I like because they always rely solely on Scripture, even though I may disagree with them on some things. Personally think of myself as non-denominational. Somewhat recently I've come to have a lot of interest, appreciation, and agreement with Messianic Jewish theology, although I would not call myself the follower of any particular "church" or denomination. I just try to follow God and what He's told us as accurately as possible and the best I can.

Anyway, I hope to contribute what I can to this forum and learn a lot. I've got lots of respect for the people on here and hope I mesh in well.

Welcome, Zach. We've already interacted on another thread. I also consider myself a non-denominational, although I'm culturally a Catholic. I think it's good that you're trying to understand the Scripture as accurately as possible - I am as well - because many people often forget that and dive too deeply into doctrinal stuff that may not always be fully compatible with the original message. So I hope you stick around.

By the way, I'll respond to your thread as soon as I find time.

Thanks for the welcoming, Canuckster.

And thanks to you too, Reactionary. I agree, doctrines and theology get placed on the same level or higher as the actual words of the Scriptures themselves, and it's simply an error. Sometimes it leads me to some unorthodox conclusions, but I have to be honest with what I see to be true. And looking forward to your next post in the thread. Appreciate your thoughts and contributions, my friend.

cheezerrox wrote:Gman,
That's very funny how similar our beginnings are. I always had a particular love for the Jewish people and for the Jewish faith, and as I started to grow and learn more about the Bible and about Moshiach, I felt like the Hebrew-ness of Him and of our faith as a whole was being ignored and underappreciated by mainstream Christianity. I came to realize that our G-d is the G-d of Israel, and when I came to learn more and more about the Tanakh (the Old Testament) and how it stands on its own WITHOUT the New Testament, it enriched my faith. Now, that's not to say the New Testament is any less important or inspired than the Old, but I'm just pointing out that the Hebrew Scriptures stood on their own for centuries, and they're not simply to be interpreted in light of the New Testament. They seem to have been given less importance than the New Testament by many modern evangelicals. That, and Torah fascinated me, as Jews obviously see it as so special and important, yet Christians often simply used it for "history." I wanted to see how it could be so special, and it's done wonders to my faith and knowledge.

Yes, good points.. The way I see it is that both groups (either Jew or Christian) have inherited a blindness. The Jews have been blinded to their Messiah Yeshua, and the Christians to their Hebrew roots which would encompass practicing Torah, the festivals, and such. Christ, or Yeshua has been stripped of His Hebrew heritage and portrayed more like a greek god. It's quite unfortunate because now His brethren Jews barely recognize Him. Hopefully that will change soon..

I have learned many many new things about Yeshua when I practice and understand Torah. It truly does illuminate Yeshua in a new light that I have never seen before.

cheezerrox wrote:Also, my girlfriend is herself Jewish (I'm a Gentile), and now she's come to accept Yeshua and be saved. As she's done that, I've come to more appreciation for the Hebrew roots of our faith and our Savior, and it's just been pretty amazing.

1over137,
Lol, thanks! It was always an important verse to me. Thanks for the welcome, my friend.

Wow.. Well consider yourself fortunate. I would love to be married to a woman with Jewish ancestry. Plus I like making trips to Israel so I would feel more at home..

Gman wrote:

cheezerrox wrote:Gman,
That's very funny how similar our beginnings are. I always had a particular love for the Jewish people and for the Jewish faith, and as I started to grow and learn more about the Bible and about Moshiach, I felt like the Hebrew-ness of Him and of our faith as a whole was being ignored and underappreciated by mainstream Christianity. I came to realize that our G-d is the G-d of Israel, and when I came to learn more and more about the Tanakh (the Old Testament) and how it stands on its own WITHOUT the New Testament, it enriched my faith. Now, that's not to say the New Testament is any less important or inspired than the Old, but I'm just pointing out that the Hebrew Scriptures stood on their own for centuries, and they're not simply to be interpreted in light of the New Testament. They seem to have been given less importance than the New Testament by many modern evangelicals. That, and Torah fascinated me, as Jews obviously see it as so special and important, yet Christians often simply used it for "history." I wanted to see how it could be so special, and it's done wonders to my faith and knowledge.

Yes, good points.. The way I see it is that both groups (either Jew or Christian) have inherited a blindness. The Jews have been blinded to their Messiah Yeshua, and the Christians to their Hebrew roots which would encompass practicing Torah, the festivals, and such. Christ, or Yeshua has been stripped of His Hebrew heritage and portrayed more like a greek god. It's quite unfortunate because now His brethren Jews barely recognize Him. Hopefully that will change soon..

I have learned many many new things about Yeshua when I practice and understand Torah. It truly does illuminate Yeshua in a new light that I have never seen before.

cheezerrox wrote:Also, my girlfriend is herself Jewish (I'm a Gentile), and now she's come to accept Yeshua and be saved. As she's done that, I've come to more appreciation for the Hebrew roots of our faith and our Savior, and it's just been pretty amazing.

1over137,
Lol, thanks! It was always an important verse to me. Thanks for the welcome, my friend.

Wow.. Well consider yourself fortunate. I would love to be married to a woman with Jewish ancestry. Plus I like making trips to Israel so I would feel more at home..

Don't mean to poke my nose where it doesn't belong... Some of what was said above sounds good.. But what does THE WORD say?

- Romans 2:28-29 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Bona fide sons of God; jewish, christian, and/or heathen are the real jews (Romans 9:6)...

--- IN CHRIST ---
bradford

Gman wrote:Yes, good points.. The way I see it is that both groups (either Jew or Christian) have inherited a blindness. The Jews have been blinded to their Messiah Yeshua, and the Christians to their Hebrew roots which would encompass practicing Torah, the festivals, and such. Christ, or Yeshua has been stripped of His Hebrew heritage and portrayed more like a greek god. It's quite unfortunate because now His brethren Jews barely recognize Him. Hopefully that will change soon..

I have learned many many new things about Yeshua when I practice and understand Torah. It truly does illuminate Yeshua in a new light that I have never seen before.

I would definitely agree. I think the fact that the Jewish people can barely recognize Him is so true, and it's very sad. I think it's bad that even among the Christians who have honestly considered Torah observance and haven't agreed with it, but still have a love for the Jewish people and the Tanakh, the portrayal of Jesus is still completely devoid of His Jewishness. If you listen to the vast majority of modern Jews, they just consider Jesus to be so alien to them, and it's ashame. People forget what the meaning of Christ is; it's just Greek for Moshiach. Jesus Christ couldn't be Christ if He wasn't Moshiach. But wait, where's the title from? From JUDAISM, from the JEWISH Scriptures. You can't separate Yeshua from His Jewishness, yet sadly many people don't know that as they only see Christ with white skin and blue eyes.

And getting to know Torah better inside and out is definitely SO illuminating. The beauty in the wisdom in it is so much more than I ever realized before. I believe it does wonders for faith, and helps evangelism to our Jewish brothers and sisters immensely when we understand the Word of G-d that they're already familiar with that much more.

Wow.. Well consider yourself fortunate. I would love to be married to a woman with Jewish ancestry. Plus I like making trips to Israel so I would feel more at home..

Trust me, I consider myself very lucky, my friend. She's truly wonderful, and now that she's come to know Moshiach it's been an amazing journey. I consider myself so very blessed, and there's much thanks to Hashem for His grace. And we definitely plan on visiting the Land in the future, I'm very much looking forward to it.

Bradigans wrote:Don't mean to poke my nose where it doesn't belong... Some of what was said above sounds good.. But what does THE WORD say?

- Romans 2:28-29 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Bona fide sons of God; jewish, christian, and/or heathen are the real jews (Romans 9:6)...

--- IN CHRIST ---
bradford

Nothing wrong with input, brother.
And there's certainly truth in that verse, but I believe you may be a bit mistaken. A fellow member here, Jlay, spoke of these same verses in a discussion with me before as well, and I believe he was completely right. To paraphrase him, Romans 2:28-29 may sound that way, but check the next two verses to fully understand. Romans 3:1-2, "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of G-d."
So you can see, though it's true that he is a Jew who is one inwardly, it's the same as how there are people who are culturally Catholic, for example, today, yet don't have any inward love or relationship with G-d. Same with any faith.

Also, you're coming dangerously close to a false belief that the church has replaced Israel. Remember that we're grafted in (Romans 11:17). We're not the original branches, and we are not to be arrogant, as we don't support the root, but the root supports us (Romans 11:18). We're JOINED to Israel, but we don't replace them.

Israel is not done away with. Romans 11:28-29 "From the standpoint of the Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of G-d's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of G-d are irrevocable."

Besides, remember, at the end of the day, there's neither Jew nor Gentile in Moshiach. We're all the same in the eyes of G-d, and let's rejoice for that.

Bradigans wrote: Don't mean to poke my nose where it doesn't belong... Some of what was said above sounds good.. But what does THE WORD say?

- Romans 2:28-29 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Bona fide sons of God; jewish, christian, and/or heathen are the real jews (Romans 9:6)...

--- IN CHRIST ---
bradford

It just means that those who call themselves Jews aren't necessarily Jews since being a believer means that they are also ones inwardly too.. This verse does not mean that we throw out Israel or the Jews for that matter however. We have to be careful before we judge others, that's all.

cheezerrox wrote: I would definitely agree. I think the fact that the Jewish people can barely recognize Him is so true, and it's very sad. I think it's bad that even among the Christians who have honestly considered Torah observance and haven't agreed with it, but still have a love for the Jewish people and the Tanakh, the portrayal of Jesus is still completely devoid of His Jewishness. If you listen to the vast majority of modern Jews, they just consider Jesus to be so alien to them, and it's ashame. People forget what the meaning of Christ is; it's just Greek for Moshiach. Jesus Christ couldn't be Christ if He wasn't Moshiach. But wait, where's the title from? From JUDAISM, from the JEWISH Scriptures. You can't separate Yeshua from His Jewishness, yet sadly many people don't know that as they only see Christ with white skin and blue eyes.

Exactly Zach... In fact Yeshua even wore Tefillin and the Tallit. How many times have you seen Yeshua portrayed that way? Unfortunately many think that Yeshua did away with Torah, something that the scriptures never teach. I think that we really have inherited lies at stated in Jeremiah 16:19.

cheezerrox wrote:And getting to know Torah better inside and out is definitely SO illuminating. The beauty in the wisdom in it is so much more than I ever realized before. I believe it does wonders for faith, and helps evangelism to our Jewish brothers and sisters immensely when we understand the Word of G-d that they're already familiar with that much more.

I have grown immensely in my faith since I've been studying the Bible from a Jewish perspective. Things I would never have understood before. And seeing Yeshua in the Jewish Festivals? It is so amazing how He is written into them.

cheezerrox wrote:Trust me, I consider myself very lucky, my friend. She's truly wonderful, and now that she's come to know Moshiach it's been an amazing journey. I consider myself so very blessed, and there's much thanks to Hashem for His grace. And we definitely plan on visiting the Land in the future, I'm very much looking forward to it.

You are going to love Israel.. It's like an infectious appetite. Once you get a taste of it you won't want to leave.. Being around people that believe like you is very encouraging. I can assure you, you won't regret it..

Gman wrote:Exactly Zach... In fact Yeshua even wore Tefillin and the Tallit. How many times have you seen Yeshua portrayed that way? Unfortunately many think that Yeshua did away with Torah, something that the scriptures never teach. I think that we really have inherited lies at stated in Jeremiah 16:19.

Yes, yes, very true. The portrayal of Yeshua is so off, as is the portrayal of Paul. He's seen as having contempt for the "Law," as bringing in a new "religion." Some Bibles (including mine) preface Acts 9 with "The Conversion of Saul." Conversion? From WHAT? Last time I checked, it's the same faith. Yeshua's followers worshipped in the synagogues and the temple long after His ascension.
Our faith is Jewish. Our G-d is the G-d of Israel. Just read the Old Testament, He'll tell you Himself. Now, this doesn't mean we place the Jewish people above anyone else, but where's the respect? the reverence? It seems as if people just want to separate themselves so badly from it. Today, whether they be speaking of grace, or answering a hard question regarding Torah, or regarding those who keep Torah, believers nowadays seem to have such an aversion to it; a contempt for it. They see it as primitive, and lacking, and not significant anymore. It amazes me, and saddens me as well.

I have grown immensely in my faith since I've been studying the Bible from a Jewish perspective. Things I would never have understood before. And seeing Yeshua in the Jewish Festivals? It is so amazing how He is written into them.

Definitely, it truly strengthens you, and illuminates things that may have been hard to understand or see as significant before. And the festivals are amazing! Since my girlfriend is Jewish, as I've mentioned, I've been able to be blessed enough to celebrate the festivals with her and her family. Pesach? Yom Kippur? Amazing. Passover in particular blows me away, Moshiach's Spirit certainly permeates the holiday.

You are going to love Israel.. It's like an infectious appetite. Once you get a taste of it you won't want to leave.. Being around people that believe like you is very encouraging. I can assure you, you won't regret it..

Lol, you've got me excited. Is there a significant Messianic population there? I've been wondering.

cheezerrox wrote: Yes, yes, very true. The portrayal of Yeshua is so off, as is the portrayal of Paul. He's seen as having contempt for the "Law," as bringing in a new "religion." Some Bibles (including mine) preface Acts 9 with "The Conversion of Saul." Conversion? From WHAT? Last time I checked, it's the same faith. Yeshua's followers worshipped in the synagogues and the temple long after His ascension.

Quite right.. In fact the very first Christian churches in Israel were actually synagogues. Many of these messianic symbols were found in these synagogues.. As you can see it was Jew (Menorah) and Gentile (the fish) coming together.



And even the first Christian believers continued to use the temple as a house of prayer. Even after Yeshua ascended to heaven.

Luke 24:52-53 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart.

Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.

Acts 22:17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance..

Acts 24:11-12 You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city.

Acts 24:17-18 After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings. 18 I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance

cheezerrox wrote: Lol, you've got me excited. Is there a significant Messianic population there? I've been wondering.

Zach it's around 20 thousand but it is mostly practiced underground since it is very controversial there. Especially with the Orthodox. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find a service in Jerusalem. Then I found out later that the Messianic Church I was attending was recently fire bombed. To protect the place they had to install steel curtains over the windows. In Tel Aviv it's a little more excepted there. It is truly fun though and very exciting to practice it there. I felt like I was over stepping many barriers there undercover like a spy.

cheezerrox wrote:

Bradigans wrote:Don't mean to poke my nose where it doesn't belong... Some of what was said above sounds good.. But what does THE WORD say?

- Romans 2:28-29 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Bona fide sons of God; jewish, christian, and/or heathen are the real jews (Romans 9:6)...

--- IN CHRIST ---
bradford

Nothing wrong with input, brother.
And there's certainly truth in that verse, but I believe you may be a bit mistaken. A fellow member here, Jlay, spoke of these same verses in a discussion with me before as well, and I believe he was completely right. To paraphrase him, Romans 2:28-29 may sound that way, but check the next two verses to fully understand. Romans 3:1-2, "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of G-d."
So you can see, though it's true that he is a Jew who is one inwardly, it's the same as how there are people who are culturally Catholic, for example, today, yet don't have any inward love or relationship with G-d. Same with any faith.

Also, you're coming dangerously close to a false belief that the church has replaced Israel. Remember that we're grafted in (Romans 11:17). We're not the original branches, and we are not to be arrogant, as we don't support the root, but the root supports us (Romans 11:18). We're JOINED to Israel, but we don't replace them.

Israel is not done away with. Romans 11:28-29 "From the standpoint of the Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of G-d's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of G-d are irrevocable."

Besides, remember, at the end of the day, there's neither Jew nor Gentile in Moshiach. We're all the same in the eyes of G-d, and let's rejoice for that.

Amen... Alleluia!! Thanks bro (2 Timothy 4:2).

--- IN CHRIST ---
-bradford-

Gman wrote:Quite right.. In fact the very first Christian churches in Israel were actually synagogues. Many of these messianic symbols were found in these synagogues.. As you can see it was Jew (Menorah) and Gentile (the fish) coming together.



And even the first Christian believers continued to use the temple as a house of prayer. Even after Yeshua ascended to heaven.

Wow, that's really cool that they found those in the synagogues! Very interesting!

Zach it's around 20 thousand but it is mostly practiced underground since it is very controversial there. Especially with the Orthodox. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find a service in Jerusalem. Then I found out later that the Messianic Church I was attending was recently fire bombed. To protect the place they had to install steel curtains over the windows. In Tel Aviv it's a little more excepted there. It is truly fun though and very exciting to practice it there. I felt like I was over stepping many barriers there undercover like a spy.

Wow, that's ashame about that Church. It's ironic and depressing that those who wish to claim something is wrong and stand against it stoop to the lowest of levels. It truly shows that they're hearts are not with the actual truth or actually with G-d, but with pride.

Bradigans wrote:Amen... Alleluia!! Thanks bro (2 Timothy 4:2).

--- IN CHRIST ---
-bradford-

No problem at all, my friend. We're all here to learn. G-d bless you as we grow together in Christ.

cheezerrox wrote:

Gman wrote:Quite right.. In fact the very first Christian churches in Israel were actually synagogues. Many of these messianic symbols were found in these synagogues.. As you can see it was Jew (Menorah) and Gentile (the fish) coming together.



And even the first Christian believers continued to use the temple as a house of prayer. Even after Yeshua ascended to heaven.

Wow, that's really cool that they found those in the synagogues! Very interesting!

Zach it's around 20 thousand but it is mostly practiced underground since it is very controversial there. Especially with the Orthodox. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find a service in Jerusalem. Then I found out later that the Messianic Church I was attending was recently fire bombed. To protect the place they had to install steel curtains over the windows. In Tel Aviv it's a little more excepted there. It is truly fun though and very exciting to practice it there. I felt like I was over stepping many barriers there undercover like a spy.

Wow, that's ashame about that Church. It's ironic and depressing that those who wish to claim something is wrong and stand against it stoop to the lowest of levels. It truly shows that they're hearts are not with the actual truth or actually with G-d, but with pride.

Bradigans wrote:Amen... Alleluia!! Thanks bro (2 Timothy 4:2).

--- IN CHRIST ---
-bradford-

No problem at all, my friend. We're all here to learn. G-d bless you as we grow together in Christ.

- Ephesians 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

--- IN CHRIST ---
-bradford-

Um, greetings. Sorry, I've been watching the forums and been rather reluctant to join, but when I did, I was hesitant to speak up. I'm not the most social of people at this time, so I'm a bit shy, oddly enough. Even so, this seems like a nice community with plenty of intellectual debates and learning opportunities. It also seems that there's a diverse range of people here.

Pardon my introductory paragraph. I kinda wish it were longer. X3

Anyways...

My name is Peter, and I figured I'd say "Hi" and introduce myself.