Evidence for God from Science

Hello Jac3510,

You ask some good questions.

Note the part I italicizes above. Where are you getting this from?

These are my words. They're drawn from experience and common sense.

Paul also said, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not" (Rom 7:18, NASB). It IS true that we at times do what is required by the law, even in our fallen states (Rom 2:14-15), but that certainly doesn't make us "good." Again, as Paul says, in the flesh, there is NO good.

I agree wholeheartedly with Paul. If I understand your post correctly, you appear to be taking an extreme position--that there is literally no good whatsover in a human being. [Forgive me if I've misrepresented you.]

As I think I stated in an earlier post, the Calvinist notion that the flesh represents in Paul's thinking [or in reality] an actual, literal state is a logical impossibility because the only characteristics that can arise from an actually unregenerate spirit are those things associated with evil: badness, rebelliousness, chaos, death, etc. In fact, the contradistinction between "flesh" and "spirit"--referred to in the NT by Jesus, Paul and Peter--refer to a good/evil dualism within being. I believe this to be an unavoidable conclusion based on a number of logical considerations as well as from Scripture itself. Why would Paul warn to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh (Rom 8:4, Gal 5:16) unless both were ontologically present to choose from?

I respond to the error of the wholly animated or wholly "dead" spirit in a downloadable article, The Error of the Wholly Animated Spirit toward the bottom of this page...
http://www.rationalesotericism.com/Rati ... icles.html

You might also check out the article The Fragmented Spirit, which posits the simultaneous existence of good and evil as properties simultaneously inherent in human spirit. BTW, I've posted the former article in a variety of formats on several bulletin boards and have made it available on the internet for over three years. To date, no one has been able to refute it. I don't say this from false pride, only in earnestness that I think it has a firm foundation in the truth.

I believe your comparison of Rom 7 with 1Jn 3:9 is reconciled in the two articles mentioned above. When you consider the concept that human spirit is not an either/or, actual state regarding regeneration, that "flesh" and "Spirit" represent internal states which can not only be interpreted as two distinct, simultaneous and opposite properties (true/false, good/evil, regenerate/unregenerate), but the New Testament distinctions between this very orthodox theological dualism (good/evil) match with much more clarity experience with Scripture.

There is no reasonable explanation in viewing regeneration as either wholly present or absent for why human experience is fragmented into good and bad behaviors. Because spirit is the cause of prescriptive behavior (Mark 7:21), if spirit were wholly regenerate, only good would follow from its dynamic. Same for the notion of wholly unregenerate, as mentioned above. Good simply does not arise from evil, not evil from good. Jesus explained this logical principle in His teaching that bad fruit doesn't come from good trees, not vice versa (Mat 7:16-20). He again teaches the same principle in Luke 11:17-20.....contraries simply do not produce opposite fruit.

If this paradigm is true, then your argument falls apart, because there is NO good in the unregenerate man (cf. Heb. 11:16). Those who are saved are those who have NO evil. How is it, though, that we, as believers, have no evil? The answer is that in the Resurrection, we will cast off this corruptible, immoral body and put on the incorruptible, moral body (1 Cor. 15:53-54). We will then have a body that matches our nature.

Actually, Jac3510, if you follow through what I posted above, I believe my arguments stand quite solidly. Believers have no evil in a forensic and judicial sense, not an actual sense. Those who are saved are those whose falsity (evil) has, to the extent Christ is followed in the regeneration of human spirit to the forging of faith, been replaced in some real ratio sufficient to create faith. Faith isn't just created in the mind, you know. It's an actual, inner process (sanctification). The process requires actual change. I believe all inner change from evil to good is regenerational. Regeneration is fragmental and progressive. This model explains the fragmented admixture of good/bad thoughts, acts, and words that springs from every human being. In this light, the cumbersome and vague Calvinist doctrine of conversion is proven to be unnecessary and illogical. Everything is regeneration; regeneration is accomplished by sword (Ezek 21:2-5) and hail (Isa 28:17) and fire (Mal 3:3) Truth is fire, fire is sanctification . All are salted with regenerational fire (Mark 9:49) and illumined (Jn 1:9).

If God's word is true and truly serves Him perfectly and sovereignly (Isa 55:11), and if all are salted with fire and in some ratio awakened spiritually, and if Jesus truly will not despise the dimly burning wick (Isa 42:3) or the one whose free gift (Rom 6:23), indestructible seed (1Jn 3:9, 1Pet 1:23), is present, even if only in small measure....then anyone should be able to do the math.

All other stumbling blocks that I can see are overcome by recognizing God's dualistic structure woven into His creation, that in perfect love He has by Christ Jesus' outstretched, bloodied arms deflected His wrath from particular to universal (from the individual to the property of evil within the spirit of every individual), which is amazingly consistent in the principles of both Testaments, and no other logical conclusion can be drawn than that all will be saved, even the unbelievers who go to hell. This is the rationally esoteric sense of Scripture. It does not deny the literal but fulfills it.

As an aside, in your view, how is anyone cast into Hell? All people, according to you, have some measure of good, so how does this work? Along with the verses that IRQ cited, we also have Rev. 20:15, which says, "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Doesn't this refer to people being thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Hell is fire, an esoteric term for cleansing, purging, refining. Metaphor is spiritual language that corresponds to underlying spiritual principles. We don't have a language of spiritual phenomena because our eyes are fastened to the realm of particulars, sense experience. This is recognized by virtually everyone, on some level. Jesus' teachings practically all exhort the reader to look beyond the literal signifiers used in teaching spiritual principles--as when Jesus said to gouge out eyes and cut off hands that sin, etc.--to their deeper signification. But Truth in its final and absolute form are perfectly and ultimately rational and reasonable....meaning spiritual truths will never dismiss literal truths, but give them new, expanded meaning. Many modern "mystics" and Gnostics use esoteric meaning to destroy literal truth, and I reject this firmly. Rational Esotericism has never once denied a literal truth, but it places the literal in its proper perspective.

Think universally and generally rather than in specifics. Who are the "unbelievers" denied entrance to the kingdom? On one level, we see them as people. On a higher level, lies, murders, etc. are acts committed by individuals which finds its dynamic interiorly....in spirit. When the Lord says the evil will be cast into the lake of fire, He means it. Human spirit is a field in which tares will be gathered and burned (Mat 13), in which goats and sheep will be separated (Mat 25), in which the unrighteous will be cut off from the righteous (Ezek 21:2-5), where some branches will be burned and others pruned (Jn 15). We can do it the easy way by being salted with fire to sanctification, resulting in the imputed righteousness of Christ to protect from the lake of fire after physical death, as in Daniel's friends in the furnace, or as per those saved by the blood of the lamb on the doorpost, or we can find our cleansing in the 'lake effect', or second death. Either way, God's love is perfectly fulfilled.

Believe the Lord when He says all things are possible. Even the camel, reduced to its constituent atomic components, can easily pass through the eye of the needle.

Cook wrote:As I said in an earlier post, the idea of hell -- eternal punishment and torment -- is not a part of my beliefs. It is a fact for me that it was wholly unnecessary to have any concept of hell to come to faith in God and to believe in his Fatherly over care of us. I didn't have that step. And since then, further experiences have clarified even more that it is an unnecessary belief. I have zero doubts about being secure in God's family -- "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God."

For people like me who have arrived at this place in their spiritual understanding, what can representatives of the pro-hell viewpoint offer as reasons to believe in hell in terms of how specifically it could lead to an improvement in spiritual life? To me, the concept of hell is only concerned with driving people by fear toward God. If they are already there, through the drawing power of Jesus' teachings of love rather than through fear or threats, what is left for the concept of hell to offer in spiritual growth?

From my side I should address the same question in reverse. To those who believe that hell exists, what does a removal of hell from perspective offer in spiritual growth? As BW and others have pointed out, "love" comes into the question. I have a number of things I could bring up, but will limit myself to a couple. The hell concept infects with a self-preservation and ego-centric motive in how God is approached rather than a whole-hearted choice to put trust and faith in God as our Father. By not believing in hell, you are able to sanctify your choices in daily life to constantly attempt to do his will because of pure acceptance that it is good and not to save your hide. The purpose become selfless and service to others becomes selfless. A second improvement in spiritual life, Jesus did not severely order people to do this or that in many cases, but one he did was in two monosyllables he boiled it down to be so clear: Judge not. Despite this, many fall into temptation to speculate and even presume to judge about other people's standing before God, and especially to say this or that person is going to hell. Well, you avoid this insidious temptation when you don't believe in hell to begin with.

I am back from my little mini vacation so I can respond.

Let's keep the thread open and respectful and explore the issues. Like Cook says, “To those who believe that hell exists, what does a removal of hell from perspective offer in spiritual growth? As BW and others have pointed out, "love" comes into the question. I have a number of things I could bring up, but will limit myself to a couple.”

In order to keep things moving along, let's step back for a moment and look at what the bible tells us about Hell.

Next, If IRQ or someone could be so kind as to post all the New Testament references on Hell that would be a nice place to begin — examining scripture themselves.

Right now, I have returned home from a spring break trip and drove last night through a 200 mile swath of heavy snowfall. I am a little tired.

I'll get back to Cook and Bernie's comments and question a little later on but for now, I'll lead into more territory for food for thought regarding eternal punishment verses temporary.

There comes a time in the life of a child that they learn that a spanking is only temporary, time out does not last to long and is not that bad, being grounded is temporary, because mom and dad just love me so much. These older kid's begin to reason, 'next time, I'll be smarter and not get caught.'

Temporary Discipline makes one realize discipline is temporary and thus one can do whatever they want too, pay the piper, and then do it again, or something else equally bad. Treating parents correcting discipline with manipulative condescension is selfish. Justice without consequences is not just.

God has a plan which is making and new heavens and earth. In order to gain insight into why punishment is eternal we need to look at why and for whom Hell was originally created.

Jesus tells us it was originally made for the Devil and his angels. Therefore, why did God allow the devil to rebel, lead others to rebel, and cause humanity to rebel? Why did God just not annihilate the devil, or nuke'em, or send him to prison so he would not bother anyone?

This is where a careful examination of God's character, attributes, abilities, needs to be looked at again. It is here you may find your answers as to why God made Hell eternal verses temporary.

Well, I need to get some rest. I'll post more soon…
-
-
-

I heard the midwest was pummeled with snow, I guess that was on you, rest up! I've done a keyword search and here are links to results:

All instances of "hell" in the New Testament
All instances of "fire" in the New Testament (picks up a few more relevant passages, others that aren't)

I only have limited time this week and likely won't have a chance to post again for a little while unfortunately.

BW, I feel I've come to a pretty good understanding of your views, I see what you are saying. One unclear part to me is your view of the "new heaven and earth" that you have mentioned a number of times. It seems like an important part of your thoughts on the importance of hell, please elaborate if you have a moment. And this view of spanking not being adequate... somehow we all make it to adulthood with the need for our parents to install electrocautery torture devices around our necks for life! Somehow the spankings do the trick. Or even less. I don't remember being spanked, or having threats necessary by my parents, yet have turned out fine. So for those of us who have not needed much earthly chastising and punishment to be set on a good path, much less veangeful fiery wrath poured on our heads, what does the concept of eternal endless torture offer in terms of spiritual life improvements going forward? It seems like an idea without utility beyond a certain point (ie once you arrive at security in trust and faith that God is with you).

Jac, that was a wonderful post, I hope to post something of comparable caliber to illustrate my own perspective in return.

Bernie, you seem to have put much thought and research into these problems and arrived at an outlook that suits you. I agree with some conclusions though I seemed to have arrived by a different route.

Cook wrote:BW, I feel I've come to a pretty good understanding of your views, I see what you are saying. One unclear part to me is your view of the "new heaven and earth" that you have mentioned a number of times. It seems like an important part of your thoughts on the importance of hell, please elaborate if you have a moment.

Cook, Thanks for the Scripture links - this will help the discussion!

Before I go to bed, I'll give you a brief summery of the New Heavens and Earth.

Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, Isaiah 34:4, 2, Peter 3:13, Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 21:6 speak of the New Heavens and Earth. This is God's goal: faultless perfect creation.

Now Back to Genesis Chapter One when God created the existing heavens and earth note that He saw it was “Good”. The word in Hebrew translated “Good” used here does not mean perfect. It means to be productive, beneficial, pleasant, good, excellent (of its kind), rich and valuable, appropriate at becoming (good-excellent-etc). In other words, God saw it had value, a purpose; a beneficial and appropriate means at becoming something better.

Cook, this is the arena we discussed earlier. A Place where God proves who He is, what manner of character He has, where His attributes live and prove themselves real. All things were created for God's pleasure Revelations 4:11.

In the Genesis account, God saw that creation was good. He had a plan; to make it perfect, complete, in due time. Revelation 21:4-5 tells us that God will make all things new and the former shall pass away and the new heavens and earth (along with the New Jerusalem) shall remain before the Lord as Isaiah 66:22 states. There will be no more sin as that is cast away as Revelation 21:8, 27 states.

We, in our human wisdom, state boldly, “God should have just made it perfect to begin with and skip Genesis creation and went for the New Heavens and Earth to begin with and skipped all the pain, rebellion, sin, evil, badness, etc.”

Answer, “would this course of action really have been just, fair, righteous, - too God's nature and character?”

God set the existing worlds and heavens in place by the word of his power Hebrews 1:3, Psalms 12:6-7 See Amplified Bible Translation of these two verses.To make Gold pure requires heat to remove dross. Chaff needs to be removed from the wheat. These are what we call natural laws that prove the road to purity — or a pure state requires impurities to be first removed.

It appears we are now living in this process. This begs the question, why did God do things the way he did. Why did He design this long process and thus allow the Devil to rebel as well as Humanity?

The answer can probably be discovered exploring God's Nature that reflects His fairness. God designed things fairly and righteously, and in accordance with perfect justice beyond what our mortal understanding can adequately describe in human language. The limits to human language to express the nature of God is why I say the answer can probably be discovered...

You will have to wait until I get some sleep to find out more on what I mean by this, “God designed things fairly…” and I will show you how from the scriptures and from there, you may catch on to God's truth on the matter of Hell, judgment, punishment, etc…

Next, comments about kids outgrowing spankings, time outs, parents discipline was more of an illustration to provoke honest thought on the matter being discussed for future discussions on thread.

I am too tired to type for now and I hope what I write made sense. Be back soon....
-
-
-

Actually God said what He created was "very good"

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very:
H3966
מאד
me'ôd
meh-ode'
From the same as H181; properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good:
H2896
טוב
ṭôb
tobe
From H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; used likewise as a noun, both in the masculine and the feminine, the singular and the plural (good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women), also as an adverb (well): - beautiful, best, better, bountiful, cheerful, at ease, X fair (word), (be in) favour, fine, glad, good (deed, -lier, liest, -ly, -ness, -s), graciously, joyful, kindly, kindness, liketh (best), loving, merry, X most, pleasant, + pleaseth, pleasure, precious, prosperity, ready, sweet, wealth, welfare, (be) well ([-favoured]).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus called the Father good, does that infer imperfection?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

The fact God called His creation very good lends itself to perfection. Trying to say that God created the world in it's current state is misleading and just plain wrong. Death and disease were introduced from Adams sin.

IRQ you stated: "Jesus called the Father good, does that infer imperfection?"

Response - No.

The word translated Good needs to match context of paragraph usage. That is why the word 'good' can be used to infer a wide array of meanings. One cannot take what you state to suggest God as imperfect for the sake of argument alone.

Also, it would be incorrect to add every meaning defined by the word 'good' and translate it into every text where the word good appears. Paragraph Context is very important.

God is good, just, righteous, fair, merciful, wise, all powerful, all knowing, absolutely sovereign, God's nature is too love, take care of, create, and God cannot sin, lie, steal, commit evil. He is Holy, and upright and no wickedness is in God.

If the creation was very good, in the sense of being absolutely perfect, why was the serpent in it?

God saw creation as very good and according to God - it was as planned and thus very good for a beginning so God can reveal who He is. Revelations 4:11, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 115:16, Jeremiah 32: 17, Psalms 102:25-27. Isaiah 24:18-23, Isaiah 51:5-7, Isaiah 66:1-2, Hebrews 1:10-12.

Why did God rest?

Remember Psalms12:6-7, it reveals something about God's word and how He does things. Compare with the themes of the scriptures quotes above. God had a plan and it was Very Good!
-
-
-

If the creation was very good, in the sense of being absolutely perfect, why was the serpent in it?

The serpent was a cunning animal, highly intelligent and walked upright, until Satan possessed it and used it to deceive Eve.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Just because you build the nicest house on the block doesn't mean it can't be destroyed. Satan has from the beginning tried to destroy the work of God, and thanks to mans disobedience, he has part way succeeded.

But as you say God has a very Good Plan! That is redemption of man through Christ Jesus! The earth and heavens will eventually be destroyed and created a new.

Further to this discussion:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Previous to Adams sin we know that the tree of life was formed from the ground:

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Also the animals:

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

So we see that it was sin through Adam that the earth was cursed. It was never cursed before that.

IRQ Conflict wrote:Further to this discussion:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Previous to Adams sin we know that the tree of life was formed from the ground:

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Also the animals:

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

So we see that it was sin through Adam that the earth was cursed. It was never cursed before that.

Good points IRQ,

It seems God had a plan and part of it involved the curse of the land thru sin.

This would smack dab of predestination! I may start another topic on this subject...

Predestination is a hot topic - so for a thread - an open thread on hell - it would be hot

"Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake" used in the Genesis account - to me - spells out a plan.

God cursed the ground for OUR sake! Think of it for a moment!

B. W. - is this what you are referring too about that arena? For our (humanities) sake - God cursed the land? To teach us something about life with God verses Life without God?

IRQ - is this what you are referring to, too?

PS--

B. W. thanks for the visit in Santa Fe, NM last week during my work week sales travels. Thanks for the Lap Top PC too - it works well but if it crashes - I get a refund right

Locker wrote:

IRQ Conflict wrote:Further to this discussion:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Previous to Adams sin we know that the tree of life was formed from the ground:

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Also the animals:

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

So we see that it was sin through Adam that the earth was cursed. It was never cursed before that.

Good points IRQ,

It seems God had a plan and part of it involved the curse of the land thru sin.

This would smack dab of predestination! I may start another topic on this subject...

Predestination is a hot topic - so for a thread - an open thread on hell - it would be hot

"Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake" used in the Genesis account - to me - spells out a plan.

God cursed the ground for OUR sake! Think of it for a moment!

B. W. - is this what you are referring too about that arena? For our (humanities) sake - God cursed the land? To teach us something about life with God verses Life without God?

IRQ - is this what you are referring to, too?

PS--

B. W. thanks for the visit in Santa Fe, NM last week during my work week sales travels. Thanks for the Lap Top PC too - it works well but if it crashes - I get a refund right

Yes, Locker, God had a plan! Also, It was good to see you in Santa Fe. The Notebook is a dell so no crashes

That was what I meant by the arena. Yes, God Cursed the ground for our sakes. This is a heavy dose of theology but that is correct - it was for our sakes.

Here are a few reasons why I think it was for our sakes, though there are more than these:

1) So we will toil and work at discovering what is really good and evil is all about.

2) Come to a point in life where we recognize the need for God and His salvation

3) The heavy one is - made perfect - mature - thru suffering. This is not a popular topic in the Church world today.

4) Toil - to teach us personal responsibility and consequences

There are more - maybe someone else can add a few more. In this arena we learn many lessons and things.

Next Point, I want to get back to Cook's topic he brought up. God does not need to scare people to Heaven by discussing Hell. This is true, Jesus mentions Hell as a warning and not as scare tactics.

Here is the point I was trying to make - God set up a plan and the arena in which to carry out His plan. He has to teach us personal responsibility thru consequences. The doctrine of Hell serves as a warning.

For me personally, the doctrine of Hell is neglected and negated in today's modern world. It is real. Jesus tells us about it. We need to warn others about it and if in the process, scare people to Heaven - so be it.

The problem with scare tactic's - is that they are overused and in many cases cause people to mock Christianity. I think it is best to teach responsibility, warn and to answer objections to the doctrine of Hell in a reasonable manner.

No offense to anyone believing in annihilation, or temporal punishment, but please understand that if either of these were the case, they negate certain aspects of God's Character and God cannot deny Himself.

If Temporary punishment worked, it would have work on the Devil as Revelations 20:7-8 states.

The equity and fairness of God outshines human ability to fully comprehend these! Look at these attributes on your own. May God reveal more to you.

Cook, the answer would be No - the doctrine of Hell is not needed to scare people to Heaven. I think much misunderstanding of this doctrine comes from such scare tactics. However, the doctrine of Hell does need to be taught. As Jesus taught on it, we should too.

It is clear from the historical records that trying to use this doctrine to produce good morals, good deeds, and scare into Heaven, have some limited positive results but also have produced many bad results. The real issue is not scaring people to be good and behave but to point to Jesus and His work on the cross. That is our true salvation and to be truly saved, you must be saved from something eternal. Consequence do share our past acts. We must warn in order to save as many as we can.
-
-
-

Bernie wrote:Hell is fire, an esoteric term for cleansing, purging, refining. Metaphor is spiritual language that corresponds to underlying spiritual principles. We don't have a language of spiritual phenomena because our eyes are fastened to the realm of particulars, sense experience. This is recognized by virtually everyone, on some level.

Bernie, can you explain why you think Hell Fire is an esoteric term for cleansing, purging, and refining?

Do you support that Hell Fire cleanses those in Hell?

If so, how does this work?

Thank you for your insights and please keep them coming!

Locker wrote:Bernie, can you explain why you think Hell Fire is an esoteric term for cleansing, purging, and refining?Do you support that Hell Fire cleanses those in Hell?If so, how does this work?Thank you for your insights and please keep them coming!

Since basically, I stated my views on the matter of eternal Hell and punishment, what are the other views on this - what is the reasoning behind temporary punishment, cleansing fires of hell, and annihilation?

So far, what I discovered to be in opposition to the doctrine of Everlasting Hell and Eternal Punishment and its Relevancy today are the following reasons:

-Abusive scare tactics used to manipulate people into being good or frighten into people into heaven. I can see this occurring in many churches that people grow up in

-Humanity is a helpless victim of original sin and its consequences

-Humanity has some good; even the most evil humans can do good things. This good merits everyone making it into heaven.

-God's Love would not send one to Hell for ever

-How can a God of mercy torture people in Hell forever?

-Life is too short, therefore, so will punishment. You cannot punish forever due to life's shortness

-Those most evil will be annihilated; the rest will enter Heaven at some future date in time.

These are just a few reasons I have discerned as to why many find the doctrine of Everlasting Hell and Eternal Punishment and its Relevancy to be in error.

Question: What are the underlying reasons for these arguments against the doctrine of Everlasting Hell and Eternal Punishment these reasons postulate? We need to explore these in a reasonable and non-threatening manner so we can discover the truth as explorers concerning threads topic and purpose.

In summery, the doctrine of Everlasting Hell and Eternal and its need is discovered by studying the nature, character, and attributes of God. I hope I explained that position well enough. Let's look at the opposing arguments and discover the truth.

Comments:

-Abusive scare tactics used to manipulate people into being good or frighten into people into heaven.

I can see this occurring in many churches that people grow up in. My wife grew up Roman Catholic and told me the Statutes and the Iconography of the Stations of the Cross scared her to no ends when she was a little girl seeing these displayed on the church walls. The doctrine of blessed poverty and suffering was over taught. Happiness was frowned upon in the Irish Roman Catholic church she attended as a child. This taught her as a child, as she says, “to fear God in a wrong manner and learn that I could never be good enough for God.”

For myself, I grew up in a Southern Baptist Home, with a wide mix of relatives from different dominations: Charismatic, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, Reformed Presbyterian, etc. When I was a child, religion scared me, and I grew up to rejected it because of the word iconography used to scare people to be good was frightening to a dumb kid like me.

Like my wife, I learned to fear God in a wrong manner and learned that I could never be good enough for God. So why try? He picks those bond for Heaven and those bound for Hell — why try to be good was my line of thinking back in my youth.

I turned into an Atheist and then into an Naturalist Atheist — or agnostic in the mold of Thomas Jefferson but rejected the notion of a living God. A God of Nature, of natural laws, force, whatever you call it, replaced a living God.

Why? Mostly out of fear of never being able to live up to God's Standards and the Doctrine of an Eternal Hell. These kept me away from God. So I can see why the reasons of abusive scare tactics are distasteful for many. Maybe that is the case for many today?

I became Born Again, 25 years ago, after coming to the end of myself. All my arguments I used to justify my actions and deeds to reject God were found in error. I found Jesus Christ, not out of blind fear of Hell, but rather a love so deep and profound that it slew me, for my own good. I learned that I did not merit God's love at all. God loves for his purpose and reason. He unstopped my ears to hear, that is all. I had to be broken in order to become repaired. Only the love of God can do that, no other love can do this, none.

If you do not know Christ and have come to the end of yourself; Look up! Your redemption drawth nigh! Come to Christ and you will find rest for your soul. His love slays in order to rebuild you and I into what God truly designed us to be. Call upon the Lord to be saved. There is much more that needs to be said regarding this, you can privet email me or Jac, August, PL, Locker, IRQ and others of forum as to this hope of salvation and they can help you in this matter.

I cannot help myself but lead others to Christ so bear with me on this “fellows of the Form!”

Scare tactics may have a purpose but it is God that draws people unto Himself. The Goodness of God leads to repentance. Hell, is it eternal? Yes! Is it necessary? Yes! However, in the words of Corrie ten Boom, “There is no dark pit deeper, than God's love is not deeper still.”
-
-
-

B.W. wrote:If you do not know Christ and have come to the end of yourself; Look up! Your redemption drawth nigh! Come to Christ and you will find rest for your soul. His love slays in order to rebuild you and I into what God truly designed us to be. Call upon the Lord to be saved. There is much more that needs to be said regarding this, you can privet email me or Jac, August, PL, Locker, IRQ and others of forum as to this hope of salvation and they can help you in this matter.

WOW!!!!!
Who could post anything that would compare with that!!!
Applause, applause, applause!

I continue to only have limited opportunities to post but will be back here when I can. Some catching up on my part:

BW wrote:For me personally, the doctrine of Hell is neglected and negated in today's modern world. It is real. Jesus tells us about it. We need to warn others about it and if in the process, scare people to Heaven - so be it.

The problem with scare tactic's - is that they are overused and in many cases cause people to mock Christianity. I think it is best to teach responsibility, warn and to answer objections to the doctrine of Hell in a reasonable manner.

How can hell not be neglected and negated in today's modern world? The abolishment of "cruel and unusual punishment" is the highest law of the land in the US. Even in our imperfect, far-from-Godlike society we've come to know that it is not acceptable to inflict punishment of pain and torture for wrongdoing. Even for the worst crimes such as murder, prisoners receive daily nutrition and access to healthcare and libraries, basics of sustenance for body and mind, and don't go on the torture rack. Animals that maul and even kill people are treated better, and are euthanized, instead of being tormented and artificially kept alive to maximize torment.

For me hell is not real. It's a relic notion from earlier times when God was seen in much more primitive terms as a hot-tempered tyrant of whims and emotion. This is human anthropomorphism of the eternal God from harsh ages in ancient human history, and for me it does not survive contact with the light of Jesus that inspires high trust or contact with modern human reasoning. Even secular atheists live by ethics of the golden rule -- treat others the way you want to be treated -- which leads to a more advanced stage of understanding where torture is not judicially acceptable and is far far far from being "love". Hell is an "old wineskin" of a belief to me and incompatible with the "new wine skin" good news that God is love and we are to love him with all our heart, mind, and soul. Jac3510 described well how he would have to drastically change his theology to do without the concept of hell, but many people would have to drastically change their understanding of love and justice to entertain this severe and cruel aspect of theological belief. And it is not even necessary in order for essential bright truth to be seen, the pearl of great price to be obtained. It is even a hindrance, as you've pointed out.

The passages attributed to Jesus in the Bible about hell to me are figurative and it is a stretch to make the burning of chaff or elimination of dross into a concept that encompasses eternal life of suffering. As Jesus said, "He that believes in me, though he dies, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die." How can this promise have meaning if actually nobody dies?

To me the highest purest demonstration of God's character ever provided to humanity was in the person of Jesus and his life's example and teachings. I understand that even the least person in the kingdom of love that Jesus taught is greater than any of the old prophets. I think he was truly the divine Son of God and that a study of him is a study of the Father. From Jesus we learn -- though the pharisees and experts of legalistic theology were blinded from seeing and learning these truths -- that in fact God *is* mocked, and he returns love for being mocked. God is spit on, whipped, tortured, and still he returns love and affection toward his enemies. We see that he overcame this world and exhausted the full bitter cup of evil being driven into him and yet he reveals that God, even when so ignominously and outrageously abused in this way by his children, *still* returns love and light to them. That is the divine character. To return goodness for evil, to be long-suffering, and to extend love even to the lowly and sinful who don't deserve it.

For me it is necessary to be rid of the concept of wrath and punitive torture especially because of Jesus' injunction to "be you perfect, even as the Father is perfect." (Or in my case, not to be rid of it, since I never really have believed it, but that it remains in the dustbin). Though we can't hope to attain that perfection, Jesus wants us to progressively come closer to it, and the direction is made clear by him, that it is by love and selfless service. The addition of anger, wrath, and pitiless legalistic judgment to the portrait of the eternal God skews us to dare to feel these are acceptable attitudes toward our neighbors. By faith in grasping the true goodness of the Father, and that this goodness is willing to suffer and endure mocking and even physical insults on the body in order to be a light to others, we are compelled to bestow this same true goodness and service to our neighbors. No higher love is there than this, that you lay down your life for your neighbor. A capacity for such high service to others certainly is far beyond the level where it is possible to be aggrieved by simply being mocked.

How is it that hell doesn't make for a tendency to retard and inhibit growth in spiritual understanding and truth by aligning the objectives of religion on selfish preservation? There is always a level of insecurity in coming to know God, but hell prolongs this insecurity in my view, people should be partners with God and secure in his love, and trust him above all else.

What does hell accomplish in spiritual life beyond a very thin application of massively coercive scare tactics in one brief susceptible life? Beyond that thin layer, once in the security of God's love -- the most solid of foundations -- it is of no purpose. And this can be realized even in this brief human life. This is a very early rung on the ladder of attainment up to glory and perfection. God is love. God is our Father in heaven. We're to accept this and go on to the greater work he would have us do, which is to bear much fruit in selfless service to others and share our light with those sitting in darkness. As the good Master said: Fear not. Be of good cheer. Peace be upon you.

I know this is a gross oversimplification, but that's fine.

If hell is real, then it is relevent, regardless of what anyone thinks about it. That which independently exists and is real, ceases to be relative to anyones opinion.

If hell is not real, then serious issues exist as to the truth of Scripture in every other area. Hell is more than a passing issue. It is central to much that is attributed to Christ and is such a prevailing topic as to beg the question of why Christ focused so much of his time and attention upon the issue if it was simply figurative.

Arguments from the human perspective as to the "fairness" of hell are irrelevent ultimately. Humans did not create nor were they consulted on the issue of creating hell. At some point, on many issues, I've learned to draw a line on my understanding and opinion and simply say, God knows better than me and I accept His actions and His revelation to me concerning it. Doesn't mean I can't learn more or consider more. It just means I don't have to understand it completely, and indeed in many cases it is clear that neither I nor anyone else can understand it completely. God however saw fit to do things a certain way and then chose to reveal it to me in Scripture.

I know that is not an ultimately satisfactory answer for many. Sometimes it is the answer however.