Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:

puritan lad wrote:The best place for you to start is to show from Scripture that man, in the own "wisdom, intelligence, and splendor" that he was created with, can choose whether or not to believe the gospel. Your entire theology hinges on this point, yet you have yet to show any proof of this from Scripture. You just stated it as fact, and moved on, building the rest of your argument on this assumption.

That's not a fair assessment PL. Many scriptures have been provided but were dismissed as either non-indicative or out of context (such as 'all' doesn't mean all, and 'the world' doesn't mean the world).

In any case, I do not wish to revive the same argument but merely to respond to your claim.

The following link (a subset of the link provided by B.W. above) contains a pretty long list of verses that clearly show God expecting man to 'turn', 'repent', 'believe', 'seek', and that salvation is offered to 'all', 'whoever', 'anyone', the 'world', 'every' person, 'all nations' and much more. There are over 200 scriptural references that clearly indicate man's acceptance of God's offer as a condition for salvation, and man's rejection of such as his damnation.

So to say none has been offered is not entirely accurate.

God bless,

John.

John, even the Ten Commandments declare plainly that people have a choice.
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Greetings everyone!

I had to take a short leave off the computer for awhile. Computer woes, work, and then Christmas season - family - all kept me busy.

Anyways - I am back and will try to catch up on the forum where I left off!

God Bless!

B. W.

Byblos wrote:

puritan lad wrote:The best place for you to start is to show from Scripture that man, in the own "wisdom, intelligence, and splendor" that he was created with, can choose whether or not to believe the gospel. Your entire theology hinges on this point, yet you have yet to show any proof of this from Scripture. You just stated it as fact, and moved on, building the rest of your argument on this assumption.

That's not a fair assessment PL. Many scriptures have been provided but were dismissed as either non-indicative or out of context (such as 'all' doesn't mean all, and 'the world' doesn't mean the world).

In any case, I do not wish to revive the same argument but merely to respond to your claim.

The following link (a subset of the link provided by B.W. above) contains a pretty long list of verses that clearly show God expecting man to 'turn', 'repent', 'believe', 'seek', and that salvation is offered to 'all', 'whoever', 'anyone', the 'world', 'every' person, 'all nations' and much more. There are over 200 scriptural references that clearly indicate man's acceptance of God's offer as a condition for salvation, and man's rejection of such as his damnation.

So to say none has been offered is not entirely accurate. :wink:

God bless,

John.

John,

No one is denying the Bible's commandments to "repent", "believe", etc., any more then we can deny the Bible's commandment to "Be Perfect" (Genesis 17:1; Matthew 5:48). What we are denying is that man can do any of these things without being born of the Spirit first. God's commandments do not presuppose our ability to obey them. There is more detail at The Myth of Libertarian Free Will.

B.W. God did not give us the Ten Commandments to show that we have a choice (though that is true). He gave them to us to show us our guilt (Romans 3:19-20). The commandments show us our inability, not our ability.

puritan lad wrote:

Byblos wrote:

puritan lad wrote:The best place for you to start is to show from Scripture that man, in the own "wisdom, intelligence, and splendor" that he was created with, can choose whether or not to believe the gospel. Your entire theology hinges on this point, yet you have yet to show any proof of this from Scripture. You just stated it as fact, and moved on, building the rest of your argument on this assumption.

That's not a fair assessment PL. Many scriptures have been provided but were dismissed as either non-indicative or out of context (such as 'all' doesn't mean all, and 'the world' doesn't mean the world).

In any case, I do not wish to revive the same argument but merely to respond to your claim.

The following link (a subset of the link provided by B.W. above) contains a pretty long list of verses that clearly show God expecting man to 'turn', 'repent', 'believe', 'seek', and that salvation is offered to 'all', 'whoever', 'anyone', the 'world', 'every' person, 'all nations' and much more. There are over 200 scriptural references that clearly indicate man's acceptance of God's offer as a condition for salvation, and man's rejection of such as his damnation.

So to say none has been offered is not entirely accurate.

God bless,

John.

John,

No one is denying the Bible's commandments to "repent", "believe", etc., any more then we can deny the Bible's commandment to "Be Perfect" (Genesis 17:1; Matthew 5:48). What we are denying is that man can do any of these things without being born of the Spirit first. God's commandments do not presuppose our ability to obey them. There is more detail at The Myth of Libertarian Free Will.

B.W. God did not give us the Ten Commandments to show that we have a choice (though that is true). He gave them to us to show us our guilt (Romans 3:19-20). The commandments show us our inability, not our ability.

PL, great to hear you again. Sorry the absence.

Let me put it this way:

Statement - Since God knows everything, then he can write about it before it ever was and bring about what is known to be best before anything ever began.

This is where we do not see eye to eye. God's all knowing nature knows best and God acts according to his nature and character and changes not. When you read the above statement, you read it to mean only a strict preordination of events, action, and deeds but not as God foreknowing everything and then writing it before it ever was. He is all powerful and can even change the course if he deems best as God knows everything that ever was and will be. We do not.

To be all powerful would permit free will to exist as to be able to control it proves one is all powerful. To control this by force or grace shows how powerful God is. This is what the bible really teaches. One cannot pick this scripture out and neglect another that says something different. There is the whole to look at and decipherer. The weakness of Calvinism is its failure to look at the whole and only focus on the parts thus declaring parts as the whole and misses the point altogether.

That is why it is important to gain a grasp of what God's nature, character, and God's all knowingness is about and the rest will fall in place rather nicely. You'll see how God works fresh and new. How he governs those he endowed with free-will or 'autonomy of reason' as I like to say. He can do as he pleases and dispose of us as he knows what is best. Pharaoh will be made Pharaoh and the hearts of men he can sway as he pleases. How?

“Since God knows everything, then he can write about it before it ever was and bring about what is known to be best before anything ever began.”
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B.W., That is one of the two differences between us. The other is the nature of "free will". If you hold that man's will is free to do what he wants to do, I have no issue. However, if you say that man's will has the power to change God's immutable, everlasting council, that's where I will disagree. God's decrees are not contingent, but stand forever unaltered.

puritan lad wrote:B.W., That is one of the two differences between us. The other is the nature of "free will". If you hold that man's will is free to do what he wants to do, I have no issue. However, if you say that man's will has the power to change God's immutable, everlasting council, that's where I will disagree. God's decrees are not contingent, but stand forever unaltered.

You finally uncovered a misconception that Calvinism holds about those that recognize 'autonomy of reason' or as others term 'free will' and that is that man's will has the power to change God's immutable, everlasting council. Mankind does not have that kind of power.

When one speaks of 'free will' or 'autonomy of reason' please do not assume they mean that human beings have that kind of power. Most people do not mean this at all. Some may but the majority of those that recognize 'free will' really understand that man's will cannot change the immutable, everlasting council of God.

Many Calvinist have an attack dog knee jerk reaction and need to listen before charging in when discussing predestination. All I can suggest is for you to measure things by how God works things out in accordance to all whom and what He is. You do this by exploring God's nature and character. This reveals much and explains the issue of free will and how God works all things out according to His immutable, everlasting council.

What I did is to investigate the 'how's', ask questions and explore answers regarding predestination and free will measuring these findings to the standards of God nature and character. Many times you misunderstood me in your responses and seemed to assume I was saying something I was not. That was okay as I understood where you were coming from. So let me assure you that Mankind does not have the power to change the immutable, everlasting council of God by exercise of free will. Now I hope you will consider what I wrote from an unbiased viewpoint.

God Bless!
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B. W. wrote:

puritan lad wrote:B.W., That is one of the two differences between us. The other is the nature of "free will". If you hold that man's will is free to do what he wants to do, I have no issue. However, if you say that man's will has the power to change God's immutable, everlasting council, that's where I will disagree. God's decrees are not contingent, but stand forever unaltered.

You finally uncovered a misconception that Calvinism holds about those that recognize 'autonomy of reason' or as others term 'free will' and that is that man's will has the power to change God's immutable, everlasting council. Mankind does not have that kind of power.

This is a monumental point that must be preserved in history for all mankind. PL and B.W. actually agreed on something. (sorry, I couldn't resist, carry on - I do mean it though).

Yes. We do. However...

B.W., the problem here my well be my misuderstanding of your position. However, have you not constantly pushed the idea that man can change God's mind, and that man has the ability to come to Christ by the wisdom and splendor of which he was created with? There seem to be huge inconsistencies in your posts.

I hold that man cannot come to Christ apart from the New Birth. This is beyond man's ability. It must come from God alone, as Christ, upon hearing Peter's confession, attributed this knowledge to God alone, that which Jonathan Edward's refers to as a Divine and Supernatural Light.

"And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17)

Unless this happens, man cannot see the kingdom of God, much less choose it (John 3:3). The new birth is a supernatural event, and thus requires a supernatural being to perform it.

puritan lad wrote:Yes. We do. However...

B.W., the problem here my well be my misuderstanding of your position. However, have you not constantly pushed the idea that man can change God's mind, and that man has the ability to come to Christ by the wisdom and splendor of which he was created with? There seem to be huge inconsistencies in your posts.

I hold that man cannot come to Christ apart from the New Birth. This is beyond man's ability. It must come from God alone, as Christ, upon hearing Peter's confession, attributed this knowledge to God alone, that which Jonathan Edward's refers to as a Divine and Supernatural Light.

"And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17)

Unless this happens, man cannot see the kingdom of God, much less choose it (John 3:3). The new birth is a supernatural event, and thus requires a supernatural being to perform it.

And I agree with what you stated. However, I have not constantly pushed the idea that God is a slave to human free will. That is how you chose to read into what I wrote. I even wrote a discourse that God violates human free will everyday by posing us with a choice to make. That divine light turns on because God knows everything! All I ask is for you to think on this a bit longer: God knowing everything.

Coming to Christ is beyond human ability, one is drawn. You view this fact only one way, much like a horse wearing blinders. I tried to show how this works the best I could as well as illustrate how God's integrity remains intact by this drawing of souls so one can begin to see the big picture and not be afraid of its scenery.
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Let me add this for clarity

God is neither a hard determinist nor a soft determinist. God is nevertheless is still a determinist but he is neither soft nor hard in his determining. For many of you this may sound like a contradiction but there is no contradiction in my statement here.

Hard determinism leads to an absence of moral responsibility as everything, all action, words, and deeds were caused by a power greater than oneself. This negates moral accountability to humanity and angels as God would be the cause of all rebellion, sin, pride, etc, thus creating a world of victims rather than perpetrators.

This is where Christian hard determinism leads. You cannot escape it. It leads there in its assertions as well as its out of context bible references used to support the idea that God is a hard determinist who governs the universe using the precepts of hard determinism. There can be no accountability for sin as it was forced upon one.

The Christian hard determinist, by making God a hard determinist, makes God out as an amoral God who does his whim based of whatever pleases him to do. “If he damns you, so be it, he damns and you had nothing to do with it so accept it,” we are told by the Christian hard determinist. While the bible does reveal that God does whatever it pleases him, this is taken out of context and interpreted in error to prove God a hard determinist.

For example, for the Christian hard determinist, God will never change his mind, yet they declare he can do whatever it pleases him. Therefore, if it pleased God to change his mind, he could not do so but yet he can still do as he pleases. How can God do whatever he pleases if he cannot change his mind? There is a contradiction their. Thank you Hezekiah for your testimony!

Another contradiction is the Christian hard determinist's prayer that shouts, “God please elect some more!” How can God elect more unless he changes his mind to do so as he had already determined who is elected?

When the bible speaks of God being unchanging it is in reference to his nature and character and who he is. When God 'sets' his mind to do something, nothing can stop it. Due to God being God, nothing can change his will [nature, character] or plans [purposes]. This is a far cry from hard determinism. It is determinism nevertheless but it is not hard determinism.

God is not a hard determinist for to be so would make God morally irresponsible. The bible teaches that there is no unrighteousness with God and that far be it that God does iniquity and injustice, Job 34:10-16. That is not hard determinism.

God the Determinist

God is a determinist nevertheless. He governs the universe and acts in accord to who he is. His actions and deeds are determined by his own standards and morals. This makes God accountable to himself. These are discovered in how he chose to reveal himself as recorded in the bible. He is righteous, just, loving, kind, jealous merciful, good, fair, he does what is right, he holds one accountable for his/her deeds, etc and etc.

God glorifies himself in this by proving that he is all that he says he is that he acts according to a superior wisdom and knowledge incomprehensible to the mortal mind. This means that God changes not, he is constant, he will never do injustice and that he will always be just, even when determining recompense.

That is his will. His character and nature as revealed in the bible revel what his will is. Be not unwise but learn what the good and perfect will of God is. This is discovered by study of the names used to describe God as well as those passages that reveal his attributes such as Job 34:10-16. God acts in accord to his perfect and immutable will. Be thankful he changes not. Be thankful as that is how he determines the time, places, and years of our lives. Be thankful as that is how he guides us and leads us and elects. He does no injustice.

It takes moral responsibility to govern the universe. Without it, amoral whims would destroy it unethically and unjustly. I praise God that God governs with his profound moral responsibility or we would never be part of this — his glory.

Christian Hard Determinism does not lead to moral responsibility, nor can it teach it, because one cannot learn if made an automaton. The Christian Hard Determinist dark unbending portrait of God is an unjust accusation against the God of the universe staining his great and powerful name!
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Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

As much as I want to hang on to the idea of free will, verses like these brings up several questions for me. Can someone who is ordained not believe...or vice versa? How is one ordained but by God himself? Is this a special ordination? Where does free will come in?

FFC

FCC wrote:Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

As much as I want to hang on to the idea of free will, verses like these brings up several questions for me. Can someone who is ordained not believe...or vice versa? How is one ordained but by God himself? Is this a special ordination? Where does free will come in?

FFC

I know this would sound strange to you and the readers but this is an area PL and I would agree on as well as at the same time causes us not see eye to eye.

The disagreement is mainly due to one’s human perception of God. My position is that God knows everything and from this far superior knowing is how God ordains, arranges, categorizes, calls the muster of troops for service/for mission/task, those that will believe. [note: Greek word used in verse you cited as it would have been used in 1st century Greek is a word denoting a mustering of military units or personal together either for a call to arms or mustering of forces for a military task - it is a word that expresses the use of a voice that calls to service.] God simply already knows. Yet, he still lets people decide even when the choice is known. Why?

In doing so, God reveals his Glory – the Glory of who he is. He ‘proves’ his integrity. That He is a God of justice, mercy, equity, righteousness, etc and etc. This is how God is. He is a God of the living and not a god of the dead. His attributes, if you pardon my weak expression, produce living testaments to the quality of God’s attributes. In other words, God uses the frame work of life to express his glory and reveal himself and all that he is: that he is righteous, holy, fair, merciful, gracious, all wise, all knowing, sovereign, kind, good, jealous, etc, all which is governed by God’s profound love.

God displays his nature and character in sending forth His call or the choice he imposes, to everyone. In this way, justice is maintained and demonstrated. God already knows the end result but we do not. Think on this: God still allows the choice and that proves what about God’s character, nature, and attributes? Who do you want to serve?

According to my understanding of PL’s position is that he would agree with me that God ordains but his perception of God is skewed and flawed. It is this flawed concept about God that is the cause of our debate. How is it flawed?

From what I gather about his brand of Christian hard determinism is that God just selected this one to be saved and this one to be damned. No middle ground. It is either black or white because God is sovereign, so shut up, you have no right to seek god on this matter, so stop seeking and shut up. God’s foreknowing is left out and only a humanistic approach based on how human kings exercised sovereignty is retrained in their conception about God.

I’ll leave you with these questions: If God is truly arbitrary in his election or ordination then that says what about God? What displays more sovereignty – arbitrary picking or granting a choice even when the answer is already known? Who will you love and serve? Which of the two position displays true Agape Love, correct justice, living righteousness, true holiness, and real sovereignty?

God spoke to Jeremiah and stated that before he was born that God knew him. This is a superior knowledge best expressed as simply ‘knowing everything’. This knowing is not based on human works or what one will do but rather a ‘knowing’ if one will love God or I should rather say it this way - God knows who will recognize God’s love toward them and live in its effects. That is a work of God and it reveals how God has mercy on whom he wills as well as hardens: he knows all yet remains unchangingly true to himself, amen.

God offers this freely so there is a choice and an effect. The outcome God foreknows and thus God shapes and places each person in the scheme of time according to God’s eternal purposes. Pharaohs will be made pharaohs and sinners into saints all according to God; foreknowing us all before we were ever born. This placing is in accord with God’s nature and character as he changes not. This says what about God?

If the Lord will open your eyes the answer will cause you to fall before God in loving adoration; Your Christian faith will grow. The Lord becomes real to you. You’ll find rest for your souls and a peace that surpasses understanding. God’s Love cultivated, lived, and shown. Jesus will become more real to you than ever before. May the Lord open your eyes and cause you to taste and see that the Lord is good. It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. Harsh selective arbitrariness will not.

Arbitrary selectiveness takes away from God’s Character and robs him of the beauty of his name. I suggest you seek God on this matter and taste and see that the Lord is good and his goodness will lead you to true lasting repentance. Which of the two positions really testify and glorify God and which one will have a lasting effect?
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God is such a gentleman :)

The God of the Bible chooses, and maintains His right to do so.

"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!" (Psalms 33:10-12)

puritan lad wrote:God is such a gentleman

The God of the Bible chooses, and maintains His right to do so.

"The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!" (Psalms 33:10-12)

“Many are called, few are chosen.”

Who are the many? Only the Elect? Then only a few of the elect are chosen? Or is the chosen — the 'whosoever believes' recorded in John chapter 3? The few many must refer to something else?

How does God choose? What criteria does he use? There is an answer to this. That is what I went on to explore in these discourses: how God chooses by the standards of who he is as there can be no other standards which one can use.

The last few verse of Malachi 4:6 has a hint — “the hearts of the children will be turned toward their Father”

Again, Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1:15-21 tells us to increase in the knowledge of God. Yet, Christian Hard hard hard determinist tell us we cannot? Am I wrong on this assessment that the Christian Hard hard hard determinist tells us it is a sin to know God and have out hearts turned toward him?

Ephesians 1:15-21, “Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.” NKJV

Ephesians 1:17, “[For I always pray to] the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation [of insight into mysteries and secrets] in the [deep and intimate] knowledge of Him,” Amplified Bible

It is this spirit of wisdom and revelation [of insight into mysteries and secrets] in the [deep and intimate] knowledge of Him is where you'll discover how God chooses. In doing so, you'll develop a more personal one on one relationship with the Lord.

God is no gentleman — he is God. A God who wants to turn your heart back toward him and for you and I to know him more. In this you'll find life and the life abundant Jesus spoke about. You'll find Christ alive and ruling in your heat. You'll experience the power of the Holy Spirit refreshing you daily living in ways indescribable. Amen!

As I see it - Christian Hard hard hard determinist offers only dogma based on human centric notions of God's sovereignty which instead of helping believers discover God, they instead find only man telling what and how to believe: no wonder so many turn away from the light of the gospel. After a few short steps, they'll only told to acquiesce to God's wrath due to their wretchedness and are taught that God's great Agape Love and Grace is based on arbitrary conditions and not on who God really is and is about.

However, it is written:

Ephesians 3:14-21, “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.” NKJV

Speaks of something else entirely - Or am I wrong?
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B.W.,

We have dealt with this many times. No sense is repeating the cycle. You have called yourself a "Calvinist", but yet you have openly defended 4 out of the 5 point of Arminianism. You are not a Calvinist by any stretch, and obviously don't even understand Calvinism, which is anything but "dogma based on human centric notions".

We get our notions of God from His word, nothing more, nothing less. Your view of God can rightly be described as an "omniscient chess player", awaiting the devil's next move so that He can move to thrwart it by way of his "foreknowledge".

You continue to hold to this idea that God "chooses" based on a foreknowledge of some action men take. The problem is that, as much as you want to believe this, it cannot be found in Scripture, and is in fact antithetical to Scripture.

The God of the Bible is a "Hard Determinist" (Psalm 33:11; Proverbs 16:4; Isaiah 46:9-11; Ephesians 1:4-5,11) . It is by way of "human centric notions" that this fact is constantly challenged. "...he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him" (Ephesians 1:4), not because he foreknew that we would be holy and blameless. "In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will" (Ephesians 1:5).

It is your side who denies free will; God's free will.