Evidence for God from Science

Good answers Bizzt,

Also

bizzt wrote:Quote:

archaeologist wrote:no it doesn't. evolution in any form does not exist. wha you are seeing in some animals would best be described as 'defects' which indicate that something is wrong. we know that when 'the fall' happened, imperfection entered the world; and when we see an animal grow a leg where an antenna used to be, we do not sy--wow evolution!...NO we say--Hold it, something is wrong. and something is wrong, as something corrupted what God had made right.

Did God create a Perfect World?

natural selection is simply saying that there are differences in alleles in genes. Most lethal mutations or even harmful mutations would be selected against. Wounldn't this make sense? These would die (be selected against). We need to differentiate between natural differences in alleles and deleterious mutations.

No one is claiming here (so far as I can remember) that mutations are so powerful as to lead to large scale evolution. But one can hardly deny that there are variations in alleles.

The fall may have been the advent of mutations....BUT we would be assuming a lot. And we have to define PERFECT. God perfection in design might not be what we consider PERFECTION. Darwin assumed that God's design was faulty when he observed that trees and animals produce more pollen and sperm than were necessary.

I think its quite obvious from scripture, that God did create a perfect world. He said "It was good" at the end of each event. Today we are told there is none good not even one. Everything is in a state of corruption.

What a difference between then and now.

(of course Christ is perfect)

Does anyone know what perfect is? I think we may be putting words in God's mouth to say what a perfect environment, perfect world would be like

I think the meaning of perfect is subjective to mere opinion.
In terms of scripture, we can agree that Gods purpose and plan was to make everything NON-PERFECT, having said that it does not mean that God can be defined as a non-perfect creator, the important thing to understand is that in terms of free-will, we make choices and decisions, we take action, actions are based on the environment, time etc.. If it were perfect, there would be no death, no sin, that is essentially against God's will, we will die one way or the other, and our actions in this lifetime will determine God's accceptance of us in the other. When God said fior "it was good", clearly that does not mean perfect.

Enigma7457 wrote:Does anyone know what perfect is? I think we may be putting words in God's mouth to say what a perfect environment, perfect world would be like

Enigma, I think you are absolutely "spot on" with that comment. We are always in danger of making assumptions and believing them to be true. Likewise, we are in danger of judging God, or defining Him and His actions, by the relatively miniscule faculties of our own human mentality - and yet He is so much bigger and grander and more glorious and magnificent and capable than anything we can possibly fathom. So maybe we get only a glimpse of what "perfect" is, and our recognition must be regarded as subject to our own limitations. We see through a glass darkly...

Gentlemen,
Sorry to upset your senses with my audacious claims. But I need to remind you it was not I who said "it was good" it was God so obviously it met his standards. I naturally have no idea what the creation was like prior to the fall and therefore have made no claim other than what God said.

Do you suppose God would say that anything less than his standard of perfection is good? Can you cite one scripture that supports this claim?

You fail to recognize that it was by free will and man's decision that sin entered the world and thus corruption. This was not Gods will, even if He knew it would happen and had already planned our redemption. And to claim that somehow, less than perfect is Gods will, I again say, cite the scriptures. This is a complete assumption on your part based on the limitation of your own mind to comprehend God, his purpose and His standards.

zoegirl wrote:Good answers Bizzt,

Also

bizzt wrote:Quote:

archaeologist wrote:no it doesn't. evolution in any form does not exist. wha you are seeing in some animals would best be described as 'defects' which indicate that something is wrong. we know that when 'the fall' happened, imperfection entered the world; and when we see an animal grow a leg where an antenna used to be, we do not sy--wow evolution!...NO we say--Hold it, something is wrong. and something is wrong, as something corrupted what God had made right.

Did God create a Perfect World?

natural selection is simply saying that there are differences in alleles in genes. Most lethal mutations or even harmful mutations would be selected against. Wounldn't this make sense? These would die (be selected against). We need to differentiate between natural differences in alleles and deleterious mutations.

No one is claiming here (so far as I can remember) that mutations are so powerful as to lead to large scale evolution. But one can hardly deny that there are variations in alleles.

The fall may have been the advent of mutations....BUT we would be assuming a lot. And we have to define PERFECT. God perfection in design might not be what we consider PERFECTION. Darwin assumed that God's design was faulty when he observed that trees and animals produce more pollen and sperm than were necessary.

Thanks Zoe... Good addition

NO Answer was given. Here is the question again.

evolution is a human construct, a human belief. it has no foundation or support in scriptures.

The Example was to show the Word of Evolution

i know how evolution is used BUT your example actually helps my point by demonstrating how the word causes confusion and does not describe what is actually happening. as believers we deal in truth not confusion and we need toknow what things are really doing if we want to be able to deal with the situation.

Again can you explain the Tuskless Elephant

a defect in their system, it is not evolution.

so how can you prove that Micro-Evolution was not a product of Creation

creation was complete at the time God finished it. gen. 2:1-- 'By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing...' there is no place that micro-evolution is added to the mix.

Did God create a Perfect World

are you saying that God is not perfect in His work? yes he created a perfect world

Where does it say it in Scripture? And if he created a perfect World how did Sin come in?

ROMANS 5:12

What makes you so sure? Because it is the LITERAL account of the Bible maybe

what makes me sure? God cannot be a hypocrite {i posted this before} thus he had to set the example or he would not have been able to command man to work 6 days and rest on the 7th.

natural selection

there is no such thing as 'natural selection'.

Does anyone know what perfect is

YES. God, Christ, The Holy Spirit, do you need a list of humans also?

I think we may be putting words in God's mouth to say what a perfect environment, perfect world would be like

not at all. in the rebuke of peter for refusing to eat unclean animals God said thou shalt not call unclean what I have made clean. acts 10:15 God said His creation was good, we do not call it not good.

we can agree that Gods purpose and plan was to make everything NON-PERFECT, having said that it does not mean that God can be defined as a non-perfect creator,

please back this up with scripture.

If it were perfect, there would be no death, no sin, that is essentially against God's will,

READ romans 5:12 ff.

we will die one way or the other, and our actions in this lifetime will determine God's accceptance of us in the other

we die because death entered into the world through adam and eve's sin. God's acceptance of us is not dependent on what we do. He made us, He already accepts us it is our salvation that depends upon our action-do we accept or reject Christ.

When God said fior "it was good", clearly that does not mean perfect.

please back this up with scripture and credible sources which talk about this in an intelligent way. obviously it does mean perfect or God would not have declared it good.

We are always in danger of making assumptions and believing them to be true. Likewise, we are in danger of judging God, or defining Him and His actions, by the relatively miniscule faculties of our own human mentality

what assumptions? what judgment? God Himself said it was good, do we do less than that? are we better than God?
we are using God's own words to describe what he has done, there is no judging unless it is done by secularists.

Sorry to upset your senses with my audacious claims. But I need to remind you it was not I who said "it was good" it was God so obviously it met his standards.

Never said it didn't meet GOd's standards, only that we do not know what they are. And just because he said 'good' doesn't even mean it meant his standards. To claim we know God's mind, and what he declares is good is automatically perfect, is more than an audacious claim

Forum Monk wrote:Gentlemen,
Sorry to upset your senses with my audacious claims. But I need to remind you it was not I who said "it was good" it was God so obviously it met his standards. I naturally have no idea what the creation was like prior to the fall and therefore have made no claim other than what God said.

Do you suppose God would say that anything less than his standard of perfection is good? Can you cite one scripture that supports this claim?

You fail to recognize that it was by free will and man's decision that sin entered the world and thus corruption. This was not Gods will, even if He knew it would happen and had already planned our redemption. And to claim that somehow, less than perfect is Gods will, I again say, cite the scriptures. This is a complete assumption on your part based on the limitation of your own mind to comprehend God, his purpose and His standards.

May I ask something

If God Says something is Good then Says something is Very Good. What is the Difference?

EG.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Now here is another one that draws us to look at the word perfect
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

So what is the Definition of Perfect then? Are we to agree that Noah was a perfect man in his Generations Literally? I am really enjoying this conversation BTW.

Blessings

Enigma7457 wrote:

Sorry to upset your senses with my audacious claims. But I need to remind you it was not I who said "it was good" it was God so obviously it met his standards.

Never said it didn't meet GOd's standards, only that we do not know what they are. And just because he said 'good' doesn't even mean it meant his standards. To claim we know God's mind, and what he declares is good is automatically perfect, is more than an audacious claim

Yes Very True!

Quote:
Does anyone know what perfect is


YES. God, Christ, The Holy Spirit, do you need a list of humans also?

Unless you have some quotes from either of those three telling me what perfect is, yes, i would like list of some humans.

Quote:
I think we may be putting words in God's mouth to say what a perfect environment, perfect world would be like


not at all. in the rebuke of peter for refusing to eat unclean animals God said thou shalt not call unclean what I have made clean. acts 10:15 God said His creation was good, we do not call it not good.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Is it okay to eat clean animals now because God made them clean? Are you saying the the world is good (ie perfect) now?

Here's a nice quote:

Mat 12:35: "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him..."

That's in read because Jesus said it. Now, according to you, when God (or jesus) says good, it meets his expectations and is thus perfect. So, the quote above would insinuate, per your interpritation, that he was describing perfection. But he was clearly, if you look at the rest of the passage, not talking about prefall or post second coming, but now (At least the 'now' of when he said it).

So, i do believe that claiming God called the world perfect would be to put words in his mouth.

Good is used a lot in the bible, and it mostly seems to be used in conjuction with evil, or with good deeds. When DESCRIBING GOD it seems to mean perfection, but not once did GOd call anything (That i saw) good and it implied perfection. If you know of a time, please post it.

ALSO, in Genesis 1:31, he says it was 'very good.' What does this mean? If Good means it met his standards and was thus perfect, what is very good? Good seems to mean exactly that, Good. Not perfect. Good.

May I ask something

If God Says something is Good then Says something is Very Good. What is the Difference?

EG.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Sorry Bizzt. Didn't see your post

Enigma7457 wrote:

May I ask something

If God Says something is Good then Says something is Very Good. What is the Difference?

EG.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Sorry Bizzt. Didn't see your post

No worries Enigma at least we were thinking the same thing

One other thing through this discussion I seem to be understanding Arch's position better. Although I may not agree with it

No worries Enigma at least we were thinking the same thing

You know what they say about great minds

Just kidding