Evidence for God from Science

Let's see just what is involved in living the live of a believer:

1. "For by Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by our works, but we are preordained to walk in God's good works, nonetheless.

2. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3;3). Notice that Eph. 2:10 says that we are "created in Christ." Something new happens when we are "IN" Christ. There is a new birth and there is a new creation, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [Gk: creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (II Cor. 5:17). Albeit, this new creation has its perils as we will see in the next verse.

3. "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus [as a new and different creature] Shall suffer persecution." (II Tim. 3:12). This is not just a possibility; it is an absolute promise.

4. "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation [pressure, afflictions] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

5. "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).

6. "And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My Son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him. For whom the Lord loves He chastens [Prov. 13:24] and scourges [see I Pet. 5:9] every son whom he receives. But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons" (Heb. 12:5-8). "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3;13).

7. "Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life" (Rev. 2:10). "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life eternal, immortal life]" (Rev. 2:7), "He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11), "And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" (Rev. 2;26), "He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment [righteousness] and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life [Christ is the book of life] but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels" (Rev. 3:5), "Him that overcomes will I make a pillar [a main and vital support in the very government of Almighty God] In the temple of my God…" (Rev. 3:12), "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame [see John 16:33], and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21).

There we have a very brief overview of the life of a believer. Is it Possible that the life of a believer consists of a whole lot more than just "believing" that Jesus is the Christ? Does God have bigger plans for the human race than just "saving" them? God tells us He wants sons that are perfect as He is perfect! Wouldn't you all agree that becoming perfect might just require a whole lot more? Perfection requires many things that only God can perform in our lives. We are, after all, His workmanship, His achievement. Having ALL OUR WORKS tried in the fire of His Holy Spirit is no small part of becoming perfect.

The whole book of Revelation is a book about the LIFE OF JESUS written for:

"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him [any individual member of the churches] that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).

Is this the sole reward of "HIM that overcomes?" NO!

There's more; there's much more:
"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).

"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows saving he that receives it" (2:17).

"And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" (2:26). What Nations?

"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raimnent; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels" (3:5).

"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name" (3:11).

"To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne" (3:21).

The overcomers were born to be Judges, Lords, Priests and Kings:

"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).

Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! (1Co 6:3)

"If we suffer, we shall also REIGN with Him…" (II Tim. 2:12). Reign where? On the Earth?

"And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

We must first be judged ourselves if we are to become the judges of the World.

COUNTING THE COST
God has already outlined a training course for those who would be Sons and Daughters of God. It involves a whole lot more than just enunciating a phrase of faith in Jesus. Acknowledging Jesus as your Saviour is certainly the starting point, but it is far from the complete requirement for those who would reign with Jesus as Judge, Lord, Priest and King. Here are just a few of the things that God requires of us. There are, of course, dozens, even HUNDREDS more declarations and admonitions to those who would become manifest Sons and Daughters of our God and Father:

1."Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you [Why?]; that ye may be the children [Greek: 'SONS'] of your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:44-45)!

2. "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matt. 7:12).

3. "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

4. "Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man will come after Me, let Him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matt. 16:24).

5. "Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind… You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matt. 22:37-40).

6. "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 24:12-13).

7. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).

8. "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

9. "Come out of her [Mystery Babylon the Great and all of her evil teachings], My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

10. "My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons" (Heb. 12:5-8).

11. "Beloved think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's suffering; that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (I Pet. 4:12-13).

12. "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

13. "Love not the world [that is the social system of this world, we are to love the people of the world], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (I John 2:15-16).

14. "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Rom. 12:1).

15. "But Jesus called them unto Him and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be do with you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister [servant]" (Matt. 20:25-26).

16. "Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" (Phil. 2:3).

17. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5).

18. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and He will draw night to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and Purify your hearts, ye double minded" (James 4:7).

19. "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

20. "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29).

21. "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt. 5:39).

22. "Then said Jesus unto him, put up again your sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matt. 26:52).

23. "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die, but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

24. "Walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16).

I know that it sounds overwhelming that we should actually live by all of these commandments. And actually, there are many more like commandments in God's Word. How are we to perform all these impossible tasks? Well certainly not by our own will and power.

ALL THESE THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD

Thankfully, we don't have to accomplish all these many commands by our own power. God also gives us many promises to be with us in every way necessary to assure our success:

"I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me ['I have strength for all things in Him which gives me power' {Henry Alford} ], 'Nothing is beyond my power in the strength of Him Who makes me strong' {The Twentieth Century New Testament}, 'I am ready for anything through the strength of the One who lives within me' {Phillips Translation}]" (Phil. 4:13).

"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He shall lift you up" (James 4:10).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you though the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord… Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ… Wherefore the rather, brethren given diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, Ye shall never fall" (I Pet. 1:2-10).

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not [Gk: 'do not lose heart']" (Gal. 6:9).

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing" (II Tim.4:8).

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment [remember that], 'judgment is upon the House of God now,' I Pet. 4:17] : because as He is, so also are we in this world" (I John 4:17).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-9).

"If God be for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:31).

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angles, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ which is in Christ Jesus our lord" (Rom. 8:38-39).

"For whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son…" (Rom. 8:29).

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).

And likewise, there are many more such Scriptures of comfort and assurance that God is able and willing to see us succeed once He has begun a work in us.

j/k - I have K's most recent reply and then a response to Fortigurn to prepare. If no one addressed the issues you've raised, I will. Welcome to the boards, btw.

WHEN GRACE IS A VERB

Grace means favor, a gift, to be cheerful, well, happy, graciously, freely, deliverance from danger, and a dozen other benevolent qualities of peace, joy, goodness, and salvation. It is one of those truly wonderful words of blessing. But just how does it operate in "the real world" as we say? A definition does not tell us everything about a word. We can, likewise, define "love" as, a deep, tender feeling of affection. But does that definition tell us how love actually functions?

We learned that "... when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord"[/b] (I Cor. 11:32).
Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, look at Titus 2:11-12.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world " (Titus 2:11-12).

Here then is the remarkable parallel between God's judgment and His grace:

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek:'paideuo' #3811

God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: 'paideuo'#3811


"Grace" is not a stagnate feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer. "Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God's very image.

The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts ... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God ever asks of us -- EVERYTHING. "Living Godly" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.

When God uses the same word to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, we should study deeply what that word means.

The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is Judging.

The subject of Titus 2:11 is Grace and Salvation.

How does God "judge" us? By Chastening (#3811, paideuo)!.

How does God's "grace and save" us? By Chastening (#3811, paideuo)!
God Judges by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By Grace God Judges us and by Judging God Graces us!

Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:

"Teaching us..." King James
"Instructing us..." American Standard Version
"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)
"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)
"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)

Now it is true that the Greek word paideuo #3811 can also mean "punishment." But punishment is not the main force of this word. Notice that none of the above translations (nor any that I know of) translate this word, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, punishing us that denying ungodliness ..." No, the force of this word is to Discipline, Train, Instruct, School and Teach. All of these aspects of paideuo are with a view to amendment, correction, and setting right, not merely punishment for punishment's sake.

"For the grace of God [that chastens us] ... Brings Salvation" (Titus 2:11)!
And all of this is of God. God judges, God graces, God chastens, and God brings Salvation!


"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).


Peace,
Paul

Hi Jac,

Let's slow down - we are saying the same things but different ways. Only difference is I say that you will not lose your Faith in the Lord and you say that a person can. But you also proclaim that you will not lose your salvation just as I do! What a great statement of Faith Jac! Well - this sure is a definition of Faith is it not? You believe this then how will you ever lose it?

Where did this faith come from that has fully persuaded you of this? Can you lose this? The Lord went to great lengths to awaken you and I to this fact — will he let this just slip away?

Another difference — I do not separate progressive sanctification, discipleship, justification, transformation, etc, into separate distinct entities. These are all part and parcel of God's Grace — they go together. We need faith and this Faith we will not lose as God is faithful to prove himself true to his Grace. Grace moves through faith to change us and transform us. Remember — he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

The Lord refines and develops our faith to be in him alone. We will lose faith in ourselves during this process and thus we learn who the Lord is as well as be more like him in our character.

Romans 5:1-2, “1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.” NIV

We gain access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. This you cannot lose. God will not permit it just as you proclaimed by your own words. To let his child lose faith in Him would in essence cause God to deny his grace and its effects upon transforming the human soul.

Romans 4:13-16 “…16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.” NIV

Roman 5:1-5, “1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.” NIV

You access God's grace through faith which moves you and me to become his workmanship- masterpiece — as it is he who is working in us to become a reflection of his vocation of good character that we walk and live by these. This is developed how? How does God fashion us? Verses 3-5 reveal how.

Those claimed that slip away, fall away, from faith and somehow remain saved is not true. Revelations 21:8 states otherwise

People like this never believed in God's grace as they have no evidence whatsoever that the power of this same grace has ever changed them out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. God carries out his word. The bible, God's word, admonishes us for that very purpose: to sort out the sheep from the goats.

By the usage of man's wisdom many people are prone to redefine the parable of the sower to prove those Jesus described just fell away, lost faith in the Lord, but still are saved simply does not line up with the rest of the bible. This parable describes those that keep on hearing and do not hear, those that keep on seeing but do not see least they understand with their heart, turn, and are healed by the Lord.

This parable describes that some heard joyous news but what seed received was stolen away or that some endured for a time but hardships comes and had no root in themselves, others let the riches and cares of life choke the word.

These described in this manner were not saved. They never understood with their heart and were never healed by the Lord because they did not trust God at all. What did these trusts? - The devil' lies, own self love/worth, trust other things other than God. They were never saved. There is no evidence they ever were. Grace had no effect...

Those that heard and received the word on good soil are them that hear and understand thus are healed by the Lord: Grace has an effect. How do you receive? Faith comes how? How can they hear about God's grace unless someone tells them? The soil is made good how? Break up the fallow ground! Plough! Plant! Water! Grow! The ones that hear and understand grow and produce good fruit: Faith in the Lord and not themselves. They are his workmanship created for what? To fall away? Or grow?

There are false brethren in the church - not fallen away saved brethren — false brethren. Would the bible tell us to check ourselves by comparing ourselves to these to see if our faith is in God if God did not care about faith enough purge the false from the pure? The wheat from the tares?

The bible is used by the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, etc, and move us toward faith in God that we may know him. God's word illuminated by the Holy Spirit rebukes us and challenges us to check ourselves on the progress the Lord has taken to shape us into his workmanship. There is evidence of salvation and this evidence is a gift from God. I know you understand this Jac. You call this by single parts and include it as part and package of all of God's Grace.

If a person is saved — they'll change and this change will be lasting no matter what, through thick or thin, as the change is caused by whom who resides within the believer? Ana - Please don't ask the 'what if they die' immediately after receiving after believing in the Lord. These people are rare — most continue also we do not know the ways of God on this matter and second guessing leaves us no-where. Let God be the judge of this and not us.

Just telling someone they can be saved by grace alone and remain saved even if they lose their faith in God in reality provides for the word to be stolen away, justify enduring for a short time then bail out if the heat is turned up too high, or legitimize seeking other things rather than God. In other words, create false brethren by the work of man's wisdom. By teaching people they can place faith in other things and need not the Lord at all as they can expect to lose his or her faith in God and have no worries!

You cannot access God's grace unless through faith. How can you believe in the message of God's grace unless you hear? You must believe to be saved as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This faith is purified by the Lord throughout the scenarios played out in mortal life for them that hear, see, and understand.

God will not let you go to 'just' fall away. He paid too great of a price for that. His goal is for you and I to know him and know that HE can be trusted. This takes faith. The kind of faith God can work through to shape you and I into the imagine of his dear son. To endure, takes faith in the grace in which we stand. You will not lose that. Faith is indeed an anchor for the soul.

It is sad that the word translated 'faith' has been equated with the word translated 'works.' If you teach on faith it is then twisted to mean a works based salvation. It does not. God's grace is accessed once by faith and then is proved in the life of the believer so that this faith is in God alone and not in oneself. Let us love and provoke one another unto good works of such faith. That is my message and my point here.

1 Peter 1:3-9 text

Hebrews 12:1-3

We do agree on everything except the part about person losing faith in God. The only faith we lose is the faith in ourselves and God's grace exchanges this for lasting faith in Himself alone. God proves himself supreme in this.
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Let's slow down - we are saying the same things but different ways. Only difference is I say that you will not lose your Faith in the Lord and you say that a person can. But you also proclaim that you will not lose your salvation just as I do! What a great statement of Faith Jac! Well - this sure is a definition of Faith is it not? You believe this then how will you ever lose it?

How can I lose my faith? Lots of ways. I can start filling my head, or letting my head be filled, with non-biblical ideas, for one thing. I allow my emotions to overtake me in certain areas of theology, and over the course of years follow a slipper slope to non-belief. I can study higher criticism and not put forward the effort to overcome the objections I come across and allow doubts to overwhelm me. I can break my fellowship with other believers and arrogantly try to live the Christian life on my own. It would only be a matter of time before my faith would be non-existent. Perhaps great tragedy will strike me at some point in the future, and I will allow myself to become angry with God. Perhaps, like Job, I'll start to question His justice, but unlike Job, I won't get a visible manifestation of God's presence. Perhaps my solutions to the problem of evil will, in the light of personal tragedy, become as sticks against a wave. The question is so broad that I can suggest a million plus one ways that I could lose my faith.

A much better question is, "How can I be sure I don't lose my faith?" To that, I say that I must remain submerged in God's Word. I must abide in Him and His commandments and not take Christian liberty lightly. I must rigorously train my body so that I can force it to submit to God's will. Fellowship with and service to fellow believers is essential, as is keeping myself from bad company.

I will never lose my salvation, BW. Will I ever lose my belief that Jesus saved me? I certainly pray I won't, but I don't know that. Therefore, I choose to live my life all the more dedicated to Him so as not to give Satan a foothold by which he can plant seeds of doubt.

Where did this faith come from that has fully persuaded you of this? Can you lose this? The Lord went to great lengths to awaken you and I to this fact — will he let this just slip away?

This faith came from the same place that every belief I hold came from. It came from my observing the evidence and drawing rational conclusions. Did God open my eyes to the evidence? Of course. Did God make me believe it? No. He didn't make me believe it any more than He made me believe that 2+2=4 or that the sun rises in the east every morning. Will He allow my faith to lapse? If I am not careful to walk in the ways of righteousness, then yes, He will. God does not ensure our faith. I have asked over and over and over again in Scripture for one verse in which we are guaranteed that He will. I can show you verses that say He will guarantee our salvation, but none that say He will guarantee our faith.

Another difference — I do not separate progressive sanctification, discipleship, justification, transformation, etc, into separate distinct entities. These are all part and parcel of God's Grace — they go together. We need faith and this Faith we will not lose as God is faithful to prove himself true to his Grace. Grace moves through faith to change us and transform us. Remember — he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

And that is a difference. The very fact that you can talk about progressive sanctification, discipleship, justification, and transformation proves that they are separate, identifiable, distinct concepts. The heart of the entire problem with Western Christianity is that it confuses justification with progressive sanctification. These must be kept distinct if a proper understanding of the Christian walk is to ever be upheld. Justification is a one time event whereby God declares those who believe His testimony concerning Jesus Christ to be righteous in His sight. Progressive sanctification is the day by day process by which God prunes those who abide in Him. Can you see the difference? In justification, we believe, and God declares. It is punctiliar. In progressive sanctification, we abide, and God transforms. It is linear. They are not at all the same concept, although both are gracious acts of God.

The Lord refines and develops our faith to be in him alone. We will lose faith in ourselves during this process and thus we learn who the Lord is as well as be more like him in our character.

Again, I have to ask what you mean by this. Are you saying that I can be saved if I have faith in anyone other than God? Suppose I partially trust God and partially trust Buddha. Am I saved? Or suppose I partially trust God and partially trust Allah? Am I saved? Or what about the man who partially trusts God and partially trusts himself? Is that man saved?

Romans 5:1-2, “1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.” NIV

We gain access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. This you cannot lose. God will not permit it just as you proclaimed by your own words. To let his child lose faith in Him would in essence cause God to deny his grace and its effects upon transforming the human soul.

I don't see anywhere in Rom 5:1-2 where we cannot fall once we begin standing. You say "this you cannot lose," but those are your words, not the words of Scripture. Look again at the verse. "We have been justified" is passive. It was done TO us. "We now stand" is active. It is something WE do. If the verse said, "into this grace in which we have now been placed," you would have an argument, even if it were a weak one. As it is, the verse says nothing whatsoever to promise that we cannot lose our faith.

Romans 4:13-16 “…16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.” NIV

Roman 5:1-5, “1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.” NIV

You access God's grace through faith which moves you and me to become his workmanship- masterpiece — as it is he who is working in us to become a reflection of his vocation of good character that we walk and live by these. This is developed how? How does God fashion us? Verses 3-5 reveal how.

Yes, God uses hardship to shape us. But that does not mean that we will always maintain faith. That is reading more into the text than is there.

Now, at this point, you have a serious problem, in my opinion, anyway. We all know that persecution has caused some professed believers to fall away from the faith. You would have to say that they never really believed in the first place, and their lack of perseverance proved it. Very well, then I ask you, how do you know that you have really believed? Is it not possible that at some point in the future, you might face such persecution that would cause you to abandon the faith you have deceived yourself into thinking that you have?

On the one hand, you may say you know you will persevere because you have believed, and therefore, you cannot lose your faith. The problem is that this is begging the question. You start by assuming the conclusion, which is illogical. On the other hand, you might site previous struggles that God has apparently used to strengthen your faith. But in that case, I have to ask, how much struggle does one have to go through before he knows he has truly believed? On a scale of 1-10, how bad must it be? Have you ever had someone threaten to burn your wife and children alive if you don't recant? Or have you had your closest family members slaughtered before your eyes, all while the murderer mocks your God's lack of ability to protect you? How do you know that under such circumstances, your faith would not be destroyed? What would your present sufferings look like in comparison to those?

And even further, what would you say to a new believer? Someone has just trusted Christ for the first time, and yet they have not suffered any persecution for their belief. How do they know that they have truly believed if they have not yet been tested? And if they do not know, then how can they be sure that they have salvation? But if they cannot be sure they have salvation, because they cannot be sure they have believed, then how can they say that they have believed God at all in the first place?

Those claimed that slip away, fall away, from faith and somehow remain saved is not true. Revelations 21:8 states otherwise

Revelation 21:8 says no such thing. Tell me BW, when was the last time you lied? Maybe just a little lie. Doesn't telling the smallest lie make you a liar? So, doesn't that mean that you are condemned to Hell? I can tell you that I have lied in the past year. I will lie again this year. Does that mean I have fallen away from the faith? You say I can't lose my salvation. Perhaps I never believed in the first place? Perhaps every time you lie, then, you prove that you haven't believed?

Again, the verse does not say that those who fall away from the faith are condemned to Hell.

People like this never believed in God's grace as they have no evidence whatsoever that the power of this same grace has ever changed them out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. God carries out his word. The bible, God's word, admonishes us for that very purpose: to sort out the sheep from the goats.

"People like this" . . . you mean sinners, BW? So how much evidence do I have to have, how much sinning do I have to stop doing before I can know that I have really believed? Are you saying that I can look at a persons' behavior and know their heart? That's legalism. And for the record, where does the Bible say that WE are to separate the sheep from the goats? I can't find that command anywhere in Scripture.

By the usage of man's wisdom many people are prone to redefine the parable of the sower to prove those Jesus described just fell away, lost faith in the Lord, but still are saved simply does not line up with the rest of the bible. This parable describes those that keep on hearing and do not hear, those that keep on seeing but do not see least they understand with their heart, turn, and are healed by the Lord.

This parable describes that some heard joyous news but what seed received was stolen away or that some endured for a time but hardships comes and had no root in themselves, others let the riches and cares of life choke the word.

First off, you have yet to show me anywhere in Scripture, even a single verse, that promises our faith will endure. How, then, can you say that the idea that people will fall away is refuted by Scripture elsewhere? You have repeatedly appealed to the totality of Scripture. Again, all that says is, "Well, it's just the way I read the Bible." But based on what? Isn't THAT "man's wisdom" to use your (pejorative) term?

Now, against this, look again at Jesus' own words:

• Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away

How is letting the plain meaning of the text twisting Scripture? Notice the people in verse twelve: Satan steals the seed so that they might not believe and be saved. It does not say that he steals the Word so that they might not keep on believing and be saved. Why, if all Satan has to do is keep us from bearing fruit (which is what the last group does), then he doesn't have to worry about stealing the seed. He can just plant thorns and rocks in our field instead.

Again, you have mixed progressive sanctification with justification. BW - these are Jesus' words, not mine. He said they believed and then they fell away. Who are you to say that they did not believe?

These described in this manner were not saved. They never understood with their heart and were never healed by the Lord because they did not trust God at all. What did these trusts? - The devil' lies, own self love/worth, trust other things other than God. They were never saved. There is no evidence they ever were. Grace had no effect...

Jesus said they believed. BW - consider that: Jesus said they believed. You say "they did not trust God at all." Jesus says they trusted God. Who do you expect me to believe? Again, you want to talk about the evidence of salvation . . . where do you get that from the text? You are mixing progressive sanctification with justification. The point of the parable is not that Jesus wants us to believe. It is that He wants us to press on to become mature disciples that will bear fruit.

Those that heard and received the word on good soil are them that hear and understand thus are healed by the Lord: Grace has an effect. How do you receive? Faith comes how? How can they hear about God's grace unless someone tells them? The soil is made good how? Break up the fallow ground! Plough! Plant! Water! Grow! The ones that hear and understand grow and produce good fruit: Faith in the Lord and not themselves. They are his workmanship created for what? To fall away? Or grow?

You receive grace through faith. Faith=belief. Jesus said the ones who fell believed. Who are you to say that they did not believe? By your own logic, you have proven your case false. Are we to plow? Yes. But look, BW - WE are to plow! WE are to cast aside our worldly cares and submit to God. These are marks of the disciple, not of the saved. Not every saved person will persevere. Jesus says that plainly. He says some believed, but yet they fell away.

Now, I am taking Jesus' words at face value. What right do you have not to? Why won't you just believe what Jesus said?

There are false brethren in the church - not fallen away saved brethren — false brethren. Would the bible tell us to check ourselves by comparing ourselves to these to see if our faith is in God if God did not care about faith enough purge the false from the pure? The wheat from the tares?

False brethren? Seriously, BW, where do you get that out of the passage? What in Jesus' words would lead you to believe that these are false brethren other than your own preconceived theology? Besides, where am I told to compare myself to another human being? That would be a new verse to me . . .

As far as the wheat and tares goes, I'm not denying that there are false brethren. But Jesus is not talking about them in the parable of the four soils. Let's compare the two parables:

• A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.
  
  The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

Now . . . notice carefully! The farmer sows good seed. The enemy sows evil seed. BW . . . look VERY carefully. You are saying that the ones who believed and fell away are the false brethren. That is, they are the weeds. But the farmer is not the one who sows the weeds. Are you saying that GOD is the one who sows false believers into the Church????? In fact, this is further proof that the ones who stopped believing were saved, because that seed was sown, not by the enemy, but by the farmer.

The bible is used by the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, etc, and move us toward faith in God that we may know him. God's word illuminated by the Holy Spirit rebukes us and challenges us to check ourselves on the progress the Lord has taken to shape us into his workmanship. There is evidence of salvation and this evidence is a gift from God. I know you understand this Jac. You call this by single parts and include it as part and package of all of God's Grace.

You are talking in broad terms. Let's talk Scripture. You are right that I understand this. I also understand that progressive sanctification is distinct from justification. Jesus said so Himself in Luke 8. Some believe but later fall away.

Now, I've shown you a verse that says we can lose our faith. Show me one that says we can't. I'm not asking for a verse that says we can't lose our salvation. I'm asking for a verse that says we can't lose our faith. If you can't, then on what basis do you claim that Jesus' words contradict the rest of Scripture?

If a person is saved — they'll change and this change will be lasting no matter what, through thick or thin, as the change is caused by whom who resides within the believer? Ana - Please don't ask the 'what if they die' immediately after receiving after believing in the Lord. These people are rare — most continue also we do not know the ways of God on this matter and second guessing leaves us no-where. Let God be the judge of this and not us.

Show me one verse that guarantees that we will change. I can show you verses that tell us that we are not guaranteed to change. Luke 8 comes to mind. These people believe but yet love the world too much. John 12:42 says Pharisees believed, but they loved the praise of men more than God, and therefore, they would not repent. Paul says in Romans 8 that if the believer walks in the flesh, then the result is death. He says in Galatians 5 that the believer who sows into the flesh reaps corruption and moral decay. What about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? These believers lied to God and were killed for it. John talks about believers needing to avoid idolatry and calls that the sin unto death in 1 John 5.

How, then, in the light of all these things (and we haven't even talked about OT saints!) can you say that all believers change and that change will be lasting? Show me one verse that teaches that. Just one. I have searched the Scriptures through and through and don't find it. What I find is the exact opposite. Luke 8, BW. Jesus Himself said that not all believers will change. You are arguing with Him, not with me.

Just telling someone they can be saved by grace alone and remain saved even if they lose their faith in God in reality provides for the word to be stolen away, justify enduring for a short time then bail out if the heat is turned up too high, or legitimize seeking other things rather than God. In other words, create false brethren by the work of man's wisdom. By teaching people they can place faith in other things and need not the Lord at all as they can expect to lose his or her faith in God and have no worries!

Of course it means we can have no worries. That is what assurance is, BW. I have to worries! Heaven help you if you do! And do I tell people that they can be saved by grace alone? Yes! Yes I do!!! And do I tell them that they remain saved even if they lose their faith? YES! YES I DO!!! Would you rather me tell them that if they lose their faith, then they aren't saved at all? How will they know in that moment that they really are saved?

What I tell them is that the moment they believe then they are eternally secure. That is what they are believing. I tell them that if they fall into sin, unbelief being the worst of these, then they can expect God's chastisement, as per Heb 10:30, "For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people.""

Isn't that good news? No, isn't that GREAT news? That a person can simply believe God told the truth about Jesus and then He guarantees their salvation NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO OR DO NOT DO IN THE FUTURE?!?!?!?!? That is GREAT news!!! Why don't you just believe that God told the truth on this matter?

You cannot access God's grace unless through faith. How can you believe in the message of God's grace unless you hear? You must believe to be saved as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This faith is purified by the Lord throughout the scenarios played out in mortal life for them that hear, see, and understand.

Yes, you must believe to be saved. But that believe is a one time belief. The Bible says whoever believes HAS everlasting life (John 6:47). If I stop believing, my life is still everlasting.

Again, show me a verse that says I must maintain my faith or that God will maintain my faith. You can't, BW, because it isn't in Scripture. It isn't in Scripture because it isn't true.

God will not let you go to 'just' fall away. He paid too great of a price for that. His goal is for you and I to know him and know that HE can be trusted. This takes faith. The kind of faith God can work through to shape you and I into the imagine of his dear son. To endure, takes faith in the grace in which we stand. You will not lose that. Faith is indeed an anchor for the soul.

I'm still waiting on Scripture. Talk to me in Scripture, BW. You say God will not let me fall away. Where? Where does it say that? I can show you verses where God will discipline you with the purpose of bringing you back into the fold, but I can also show you verses that say that if you don't heed to that discipline, then God will destroy you. God will not be mocked. If you lose your faith, you can expect severe discipline, up to and including death in this life and the loss or rewards in the next. But nowhere, NOWHERE, are we promised that our faith will be preserved. If such a promise exists, it should be simple for you to show it to me. I've shown you several verses now that clearly say that people can stop believing. You say that interpretation is in violation with the rest of Scripture. Ok. Show me, in Scripture, where I can't lose my faith. One verse should be sufficient.

It is sad that the word translated 'faith' has been equated with the word translated 'works.' If you teach on faith it is then twisted to mean a works based salvation. It does not. God's grace is accessed once by faith and then is proved in the life of the believer so that this faith is in God alone and not in oneself. Let us love and provoke one another unto good works of such faith. That is my message and my point here.

You are getting back into attributing to me positions I don't hold, BW. If you don't stop this, I'll ask the other moderators to step in and review your own posts. Where have I equated faith with works? I highly resent the charge. Now, if you feel that my position makes faith a work, then quote the relevant portions of my words and show the logical implications. If not, I absolutely demand a retraction.

Now, what I HAVE said is that to believe that repentance is necessary or that obedience is necessary is a works based salvation. I have not, however, said that believing perseverance is necessary is a works based salvation. To the contrary, I have stated publicly that I do NOT think that is the case. Again, then, if the best you can do is present a straw man of my position, then there is no need for further discussion. I am taking your words and objections very seriously. I am giving your position all the credit it deserves and asking questions to you. I expect at least the same level of respect in return, especially from a moderator.

We do agree on everything except the part about person losing faith in God. The only faith we lose is the faith in ourselves and God's grace exchanges this for lasting faith in Himself alone. God proves himself supreme in this.

I'm not sure what we are agreeing on except the idea that a person cannot lose their salvation. Look at the differences in our position:

1. We disagree that a person can lose their faith;
2. We disagree that saving faith must necessarily be solely in God: you think such a faith is developed;
3. We disagree on the nature of faith: you seem to think faith is a gift;
4. We disagree on the necessary results of disobedience: you seem to think God will restore us through discipline;
5. We disagree on the necessary results of tribulation: you seem to think it always results in a stronger faith;
6. We disagree that justification and progressive sanctification should be kept distinct;

Now, that's fairly off the top of my head. BW - all you have to do to prove me wrong on every point is to show me one verse that teaches explicitly that God guarantees our faith will be preserved until the end of our lives. I have offered several verses that explicitly say that people can lose their faith, Luke 8 being the chief among them.

I submit my thinking to Scripture. Show me, by Scripture, where I am wrong.

God bless

Jac3510 wrote:How can I lose my faith? Lots of ways. I can start filling my head, or letting my head be filled, with non-biblical ideas, for one thing. I allow my emotions to overtake me in certain areas of theology, and over the course of years follow a slipper slope to non-belief. I can study higher criticism and not put forward the effort to overcome the objections I come across and allow doubts to overwhelm me. I can break my fellowship with other believers and arrogantly try to live the Christian life on my own. It would only be a matter of time before my faith would be non-existent. Perhaps great tragedy will strike me at some point in the future, and I will allow myself to become angry with God. Perhaps, like Job, I'll start to question His justice, but unlike Job, I won't get a visible manifestation of God's presence. Perhaps my solutions to the problem of evil will, in the light of personal tragedy, become as sticks against a wave. The question is so broad that I can suggest a million plus one ways that I could lose my faith.

A much better question is, "How can I be sure I don't lose my faith?" To that, I say that I must remain submerged in God's Word. I must abide in Him and His commandments and not take Christian liberty lightly. I must rigorously train my body so that I can force it to submit to God's will. Fellowship with and service to fellow believers is essential, as is keeping myself from bad company.

I will never lose my salvation, BW. Will I ever lose my belief that Jesus saved me? I certainly pray I won't, but I don't know that. Therefore, I choose to live my life all the more dedicated to Him so as not to give Satan a foothold by which he can plant seeds of doubt.

Jac, please calm down! Jac, I have no malice toward you. You asked - How can one be sure you will not lose your faith in God? Answer- God will prove himself real to you every time Jac — that is how. He will remove the vestiges of faith in men and faith in self and in doing so increase your faith in the Lord.

The bible teaches this principle in abundance. In Matthew 14:25-31, what did Peter learn — what was his faith in? Why did he sink? Look at Peter's life, he denied the Lord three times, went fishing, and during each event his Faith in the Lord was increased and faith in other things decreased. There is scriptural evidence for what I write in abundance.

Why are you so sure that the Lord will allow you to lose such trust in him? If a person lost trust in him what assurance can they have in the hereafter to trust God there? In other words how can a person trust God in heaven? Answer, they cannot and will not be able to trust God anywhere. Note: Mark 8:34-38, Matthew 10:28-33. What does truly denying the Lord involve verses having faith in the Lord actualized?

Who is the author and perfecter of our Faith in Him? What is the method employed by God to learn such Faith? Hebrews 12:1-3. Since Christ is the author and perfecter of faith — is this gift and calling taken away and so easily lost? Or is it instead refined and purified to trust God during this earthly sojourn, 1 Peter1:3-9? What does the Bible say Jac — not the doctrine of men but the bible?

Let me state again: Our only disagreement is on a Christian losing one's Faith in Lord. Maybe we should discuss this on another thread instead of this one? We agree on salvation by grace alone and the importance of faith and the roles of sanctification, justification, etc has on the believer. However we approach the same things differently and that is okay as it is God's work anyway regarding these matters.

As for scripture — I have given you plenty — John 3:16 is one: Believe in the Lord — what does that mean Jac? What does the scriptures cited above state?

A person cannot logically state that he knows that they are saved no matter what and then next turn around and say one can lose such faith in God. Faith is complete assurance — completely convinced — totally trusting. You believe your own statement that you will not lose your salvation because it is by God's grace then you demonstrate the kind of faith that you cannot lose. Faith is not feelings as you so stated. This is my point. You affirmed this time and again. Well done!

Jac — you will not lose your faith in the Lord as God will not allow it. A Christian will lose faith in him or her self while learning to trust God alone and thus learn to rest fully confident in him alone. I think you are confusing losing faith in self, things, men, people for loss of faith in the Lord.

Every believer will take their own personal journey of faith in varied degrees of intensity during their mortal sojourn here during this life learning that one can really trust God. He will see you through and you'll grow in your relationship with the Lord and know him more and more with each passing day.

In this you seem to disagree and want scripture proof text. Well the whole bible teaches this theme in many varied ways: through the lives and examples of Rahab, Moses, Elijah, etc, Peter, Paul, the Apostles, etc to name a few as well as states it in Hebrews 11 and Hebrews 12-1-6 and many other locations. We both agree faith in the Lord is important but to lose this? Where does it say Annanis and Sapphira went to heaven? Saul was chosen by men and made King? Etc and etc…

The scriptures admonish us to develop our faith - do they not? Not to lose our faith in the Lord. Which is it? I think you are reading into these scriptures that you can lose faith in the Lord and interpreting admonishing passages according to that intellectual light.

When I read the same scriptures I see them as purposeful for developing our faith in Christ alone by comparison, not losing faith but developing it further. Let's hear and understand correctly so that good fruit grows as we learn. What does the bible teach? Trust God or man? Which way of interpreting scriptures leads you to develop trust in the Lord or trust in the doctrines of men?

Question — does the bible teach faith in the Lord or not? Why do the scriptures admonish us to stay strong in the Lord? Not to drift away? Put off the old man? What overcomes this and keeps you strong in the Lord and the power of his might? Who will hear and understand and who will not? What role does the word of God play, Hebrews 4:12?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God — the word of faith which was preached does what Jac? Does God keep his word? Again, when I read the same scriptures admonishments I see them as purposeful for developing our faith in Christ alone by comparison — not to justify losing Faith in the Lord but rather intensify our Faith in the Lord.

How does God tell his children what is wrong and what is right? - Through the scriptures. What happens to those who believed and are born again, live in death or grow in life? What is full assurance? The Bible changes lives. It has changed yours and mine. To say you can lose this kind of faith in God that the word of Faith teaches from the word of God just does not make sense, Romans Chapter 10.

Doctrine of Men

Now, the doctrine of men has a tendency to down play scriptures such as John 10 and Matthew 13 and every scripture I quoted so far to say these cannot mean what they clearly teach because of this or that clever enticing rationale. The doctrine of men depends upon using such rationale to justify human oriented beliefs on scripture to support their viewpoints under the guise of rightly dividing the word of truth. Thus faith is in the doctrines of men and not in the Lord. What is the Lord to do to get such back on track trusting him?

2 Timothy 3:15-17, I find it ironic that all scripture is God breathed and is good for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness yet according to the doctrine of men only certain passages are and others cannot be used unless agreeing with a particular doctrine of man. One can say this or that scripture cannot apply because Jesus really did not mean what he said in a scripture such as John 10 or John 3:16 and there is no need to line up other scriptures to match such statements.

This places ones faith in doctrines of men and not what the word teaches — faith in God alone to overcome, to attain God's promises, please God, learn of him, to develop that living personal relationship with the Lord we hear about so much about. Instead the doctrine of men use the scripture to proof text their beliefs not to trust the Lord at all but rather trust in human intellect alone. Would you like proof?

++Do not take me wrong Jac and say I am attacking you here or accusing you of anything — I am not — Please keep reading:++

Is faith really necessary for salvation or not?

If it is not, then how can you believe what Jesus says true or not: John 3:14-21, John 5:24-25, John 6:40, John 10:27-29

Jesus describes two types of people — Luke 6:46-49. Those that hear and acts upon it and those that hear and do not act. How does this fit into 1 Peter 1:23-25 — 1 Peter 2:1-10 as well as Matthew 13 parable of the sower? Also Mark 8:34-38?

What of Romans Romans 5:1-5, Romans 4:13-16?

Is faith necessary at all? What is its purpose?

What is God's Grace? How does a person access this gift? If not by faith then is Grace by divine osmosis then? How did you hear of the gift of grace? You believed — Faithed — did you not in this gift?

Do you believe in universal salvation, Jac, from what I know of you — you do not at all support this position. If it is all Grace and no faith — then such doctrine supports Universalism of osmosis does it not? What role does faith play in accessing God's grace? Where does the faith come from that accesses God's grace? Word of God or by the means of divine osmosis?

Why did Jesus say, “whosoever believes — faith — in me shall not perish but have everlasting life!” Why did he not say — “by osmosis of grace you will be saved because faith in me, well, you can lose that!” Who is the author and perfecter of our faith?

Jac, from your own words you do not believe that faith is unimportant and you see the role it plays. You will not lose your faith in the Lord as he is developing that in you now even as we type. He wants yours and my faith to rest in him alone and not in the doctrines of men. You still disagree?.

We should end this discussion on a positive note rather than sour. You are a good man and one that can be relied upon to defend the faith. Someone who unknowingly is strong in their faith toward God! Excellent in deed!

You will not lose your faith Jac — how do I know? Ephesians 2:8-10. Verse ten tells me so — you were predestined beforehand to become His masterpiece — His workmanship to be molded and shaped into Christ like character which you will walk therein. Predestined Jac — you cannot lose that! And all this in the direct context of verse 8-9!

Faith is to be in the Lord alone and not based in our human intellect as it is written: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen Hebrews 11:1. You were predestined Jac — not to fail. You can't see it but you will walk in it. Do you hear? Understand? Now go and bear good fruit! You can trust God to never leave you nor forsake you! He will increase your measure of faith and develop it, refine it, build it up, and this you will not lose.

Ye of little faith, watch the Lord calm your sea of doubt and then grow strong in the Lord and the power of his might!

Jac as you can see, my words are not harsh - I see great faith in you!
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