Evidence for God from Science

jenna wrote:"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23

I was looking for B.W. and/or others to give me the answer to this...but jenna's will do.
IF the price of sin is eternal fire/torment/death...did Jesus really pay the price of sin for us? If so...explain Him (Jesus) not burning and in torment still?

NIV - Jude 1:7 wrote:In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? If not, the writer is a liar!

NIV - 2 Peter 2:6 wrote: if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

An example of what is going to happen to the ungodly...??
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jenna wrote:"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23

BavarianWheels wrote:I was looking for B.W. and/or others to give me the answer to this...but jenna's will do. IF the price of sin is eternal fire/torment/death...did Jesus really pay the price of sin for us? If so...explain Him (Jesus) not burning and in torment still? NIV-Jude 1:7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? If not, the writer is a liar! NIV-2 Peter 2:6 - if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; An example of what is going to happen to the ungodly...??

BavarianWheels, please do not confuse God justly wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah, and the ancient world of Noah's time as a proof text that God annihilates into non-existence. These happened on finite terms — mortality was extinguished so God's good plans prevail.

Those that perished where not eternally annihilated for reasons cited in my prior postings but were removed from the land of the living so they no-longer can cause harm. This is God's right to do, to mortally kill and make alive. Those that perished, their souls/corrupted spirits, were turned into Sheol where the fiery wrath of God burns. They are still there and will be so till the second death when hell and its inhabitants are tossed into the lake of fire as the bible teaches.

Note what Jude 7 really states: “They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.”

These are antitypes — examples that God repays in judgment. The fire remains nevertheless eternal, not temporal, and has nothing to do with fire and brimstone raining down destroying these cities way back when or they not existing today. Yes, the cities were laid waste because God judged these people and as it is written in Psalms, they were turned into hell — eternal fire in the afterlife.

To say otherwise creates the logical fallacy of contradiction. As Psalms 9:15-17 states the wicked are turned into hell — not soul sleep: “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.” MKJV

Also note that God's wrath is given as an example of fire: Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol..." ESV

Again note that before the resurrection of Christ, Jesus gives this description of hell as a conscious afterlife:

Luke 16:23-24, "...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" ESV

The eternal fire is in Hell, not remaining on Sodom and Gomorrah physical earthly locations. The populace was not eternally annihilated but judged as rejecters of God and turned into Hell, right after death, where the eternal fire of God's judgment, wrath, and just recompense burns eternally.

These finite cities and people were mortally annihilated which means removed and cut off from the land of the mortal living to be judge as rejecters of God and turned into hell, forever alive as Psalms 9:15-17 declares as do other scriptures we already amply reviewed. God has the right to judge the wicked to cut them off and remove them from the land of the mortal living and turn them over to his everlasting retribution proving his justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of mortal finite reasoning.

In fact, Jude tells of false brethren [Jude 4] who crept into the Church bringing false doctrine and denying Jesus Christ will one day die in judgment and then turned into hell's everlastingness. This passage is warning that these need to repent or face the consequence of joining other inhabitants in hell.

Confusion comes from finite people who can empirically annihilate mortal physical life and make mortal life cease. From this comes the notion of annihilation-ism. However people cannot kill, annihilate the soul/spirit of man just as Jesus said in Luke 12:4-5: "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!” And in Matthew 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” ESV

The word destroy does not mean annihilate, or kill causing ceasing of existence. It means a state of ruin, perishing, lostness, and when Jesus means eternal destruction he means everlasting ruin — punishment just as the force of Revelation 20:10-15 states: “…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever….15, And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Yes, thrown into the same lake of eternal fire to suffer the same fate - tormented day and night forever and ever without end — not extinction. The force of the words defies such non-existent extinction and the word eternal destruction does mean everlasting ruin, lostness, perishing banished from God forever: proving God's justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of human mortal finite reasoning.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, “…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…” ESV

Jude 4-25, 2 Peter2:1-22 message is not an example for the annihilationist point of view but rather a warning to false brethren that as certain as God's fiery judgment fell on the ancient world, judgment will come to them without warning, and they will join other rejecters and defilers in hell's eternal flames — that is the example used within those pages.

Lastly:

The doctrine of Annihilation in reality denies the resurrection of Jesus Christ as even being remotely possible. I can hear the Annihilationist scream —'What you say — no we do not do what you claim here!' However if we are to follow the annihilationist line of logic tree to its conclusion then whenever the word 'death' is used for 'mortal death,' absolute annihilation must be read into its meaning to remain true to the doctrine.

Hebrew 2:9, “But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”

If Jesus tasted death for everyone and by his death he paid the penalty for sin, which by the way the bible does teach is the death penalty [Gen 2:17]. Then Jesus would have to been annihilated into non-existence in order to taste death for everyone and pay the price for humanity's sin.

This did not happen. Instead, if Jesus tasted death for everyone by going to the underworld for three days and nights preaching to the spirits in prison and then leading those righteous held captive by death to his heavenly domain. This then would prove God does not annihilate into non-existence for he did rise from the dead. [Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-19]

If the annihilation says of 1 Peter 3:18-19 that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, how could that happen since Daniel 12-1-3 has not yet occurred and even then for Jesus to taste death for all, in the flesh, he would have to be annihilated into non-existence as that is where the logic of annihilation has to ultimately lead.

How can Jesus be put to death in the flesh if the flesh did not taste annihilation? How can Jesus taste death for everyone, and not be annihilated to make propitiation for sins and still pay the penalty for sin if death's sentence means annihilation? How could Jesus be made alive from annihilations state and alive in the spirit?

1 Peter 3:18-19, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison…”ESV

Of course you can wiggle out of this dilemma by proclaiming Christ sinlessness and divinity but according to the annihilationist view — mortal death can only lead to annihilation to satisfy the death penalty God declared. For Christ to die for sins means he would have to been made extinct in order to satisfy the just requirements of God.

Would God be just making a sinless one extinct? Or maybe there is life after death after all, either eternal life with God or everlasting fire, punishment, deep darkness, a place of everlasting ruin where just recompense forever burns darkly for those choosing rebellion.

As Stated Before:

You who defend absolute extinction —makes God's mercy not everlasting to everlasting as His word says it is but again in your doctrine, everlasting is not everlasting and therefore God cannot be either.

What proves mercy true — a life sentence or extinction? What demonstrates love's reality - a life sentence or extinction? What express honest goodness - a life sentence or extinction? What do you deserve - a life sentence or extinction?

Extinction for finite sins??? That defies mercy! love! and God's goodness! Who should God serve? - man because men find God's absolute justice repugnant because God does not make one absolutely extinct on man's terms and justification? Or rather because of God's justice, He gives those that reject Him what they want — a place without God forever as He does will that these be served just recompense to prove He is God true to himself and no one else.

Deny it all you like. You are more interested in appealing to men rather than knowing God. Eternal absolute extinction does not even make the devil tremble or the worst serial killer care. They would have gotten away with all their crimes as well as proved to God himself is a liar by proving that God has no absolute mercy, no justice, a God of the dead [absolute extinct] and not the living, taking his gift of life away. So now I ask would you, like the devil, like nothing more than to have God live eternally with the knowledge of not being who he says He Is?

Understand now how Satan rebelled and why evil exist mocking God…
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BavarianWheels wrote:

jenna wrote:"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23

I was looking for B.W. and/or others to give me the answer to this...but jenna's will do.
IF the price of sin is eternal fire/torment/death...did Jesus really pay the price of sin for us? If so...explain Him (Jesus) not burning and in torment still?

NIV - Jude 1:7 wrote:In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? If not, the writer is a liar!

NIV - 2 Peter 2:6 wrote: if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

An example of what is going to happen to the ungodly...??
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Death is a punishment and not a reward and those that die are dead with no existence in the grave. Thats what it means to perish but God sent his son so you wont perish if you follow him. For the wages of sin are death. Here sin is an employer that pays heavy wages (death). Personification is a big part of Bible language. If people live after death then why do we have the word death? They didnt really die. The bible is straight forward on death and that is that those that are dead, are non-existent. They deserve it for breaking even one of the commands of God and this is actually a very merciful punishment where the subject spends eternity. Today the modern God of Israel is unmerciful sending people to hell to burn forever and ever. But again this isnt the God of Israel at all but a false teaching that has crept in. These symbol of fire are only allegorical just like Sodom and Gommorah are used as a sybol of all those that rebel they were reduced to absolutely nothing. Little evidence of the ancient cities can be found. Only white sulfur and ash deposits around the Dead Sea. Have you seen Terminator 2 when at the end Arnold lowers himself into the lake of fire? This is the symbol used in scripture and if something is placed in this fire it is completely gone. This is the perishing in the grave, you turn back to dust from where our origins are. How is it possible to live forever burning and would God allow that if he is merciful, this is a different God different doctrine, and nonsense.

Lets look at what the bible says about death:

"his breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalm 146:4).

David prays that God will deliver him, for "in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psalm 6:5).

Psalm 115 says the same: "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (v. 17).

The writer of Ecclesiastes is most emphatic:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything . . . Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest" (9:5-10).

"Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:1-2). Now that this statement refers in part to the faithful servants of God is clear from the assurance that they will receive "everlasting life". But look where they are until they receive this reward: they sleep "in the dust of the earth", a testimony entirely consistent with all we have seen so far. Sleep equals death. What did Jesus say about Lazarus whom had died. He didnt try to comfort Lazarus' family by saying he is ok he is in heaven or he is in paradise, he said first that he was asleep and then when they couldnt understand his lingo he said plainly he is dead.

Jesus agrees with Daniel as quoted above: The hour is coming, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his (Jesus') voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28-29). (Jesus' "all" is the same as Daniel's "many": it is all who during their lifetime have "heard the voice of the Son of God", v.25.)

"What is your life? For ye are a vapour that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away" (James 4:14, R.V.). The R.S.V. and the N.I.V. have : "You are a mist that appears . . . and then vanishes."

"I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concernmg them which are asleep (he means in death), that ye sorrow not, even as the rest who have no hope .... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ... with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise . . ." (1 Thess. 4:13,16)

Hell: In the Old Testament the word translated "hell" means no more than a concealed or covered place. Translated as "hell" 31 times, it is also rendered "grave" 31 times, in passages like these:

(Jacob, mourning the loss of his son Joseph): "I will go down into the grave to my son, mourning.(Gen. 37:35). "In the grave who shall give thee (God) thanks?" (Psa. 6:5). ". . . there is no work nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest" (Eccles. 9:10).

"Thou (God) wilt not leave my soul in hell...", means quite simply that God would not leave his son, in the grave, as is shown by the rest of the verse: "...neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Psa. 1 6:10).

Heaven and Hell going is not taught in the bible one bit actually the opposite is . Lets look at what Peter says about King David who was a man after God's own heart. If anyone was to go to heaven surely it would be him but no we see the opposite.

Acts
2:29 “Brothers,55 I can speak confidently56 to you about our forefather57 David, that he both died and was buried, and

his tomb is with us to this day.

2:34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says,

'The Lord said to my lord,

“Sit73 at my right hand

2:35 until I make your enemies a footstool74 for your feet.”'75

The Rich Man and Lazarus:

If the reader is not familiar with this passage (Luke 16:19-31), I recommended at this point to study it carefully.

Lazarus, the beggar, dies and is "carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom". The rich man dies, but when he is "in hell, in torments", he can see "afar off" Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. He begs Abraham to send Lazarus, "that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue . But the request is rejected-the former rich man must suffer his punishment. Besides, says Abraham, "between us and you is a great gulf fixed", so that no passing over from one place to the other is possible. The rich man then asks Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his five brothers, lest they suffer the same fate as he has done. This request too is rejected, in terms we shall consider further in a moment.

Now there are certain features of this narrative which make it impossible to take it literally. Abraham's bosom as the place of the righteous after death; the conversation between Abraham in bliss and the rich man "in hell"; the idea that one might be sent with water from the one place to the other "to cool the tongue" of a sufferer. The conviction that this is not a literal account of the states of the dead, but a kind of parable, or symbolic narrative, becomes a certainty when it is realised that all these details were part of the tradition of the Pharisees at the time, as Josephus, the Jewish historian of the first century, shows in his Discourse Concerning Hades. So Jesus was employing some of his opponents' own ideas to confound them.

But it is in the last few verses of the passage that Jesus' real point emerges. When the rich man requests Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers, Abraham replies: "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." When the rich man says, "Nay, father Abraham, if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent", Abraham replies: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Within a short time this saying was strikingly fulfilled. Jesus raised Lazarus-the real Lazarus-the brother of Martha and Mary, from the dead. The miracle created a sensation among the people, but far from "being persuaded", the leaders of the Jews were only the more resolved to kill him. Very shortly after that, Jesus himself rose from the dead. Despite the powerful evidence of witnesses, the Jewish authorities were determined to deny his resurrection and to reject his claim to be the Son of God. They had not really accepted the teaching of their own Scriptures, "Moses and the prophets", and they would not accept the claims of Jesus to be the expected Messiah.

This was the whole point of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. It perfectly conveyed the point Jesus wanted to make. It has nothing to teach us about the state of the dead. For that we must go to the evidence of the Bible as a whole.

In Love,
Nick

Sorry nickelodeon, you are in error.

Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

Backs up what Jesus says in Luke 16:22-31 as true. Very simple and needs no grand great swelling words to explain away the clear meaning of the text.

In Luke 4:1-13 Jesus faced the devil who twisted God's scripture with great welling words to lead astray.

Eph 5:6, "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." ESV

2 Peter 2:3, "And by covetousness, with well-turned words, they will use you for gain, for whom judgment of old does not linger, and their destruction does not slumber."

We've been this route before, Nick; with all respect do you want to continue?
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Hi B.W. Good to see you don't give up. Can you please explain to me the verses that say the punishment for sin is death? And why there is not a single verse in the bible that says the punishment for sin is eternal torment in hell? None of the verses you have given describe eternal suffering.

B. W. wrote:Sorry nickelodeon, you are in error.

Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

Backs up what Jesus says in Luke 16:22-31 as true. Very simple and needs no grand great swelling words to explain away the clear meaning of the text.

In Luke 4:1-13 Jesus faced the devil who twisted God's scripture with great welling words to lead astray.

Eph 5:6, "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." ESV

2 Peter 2:3, "And by covetousness, with well-turned words, they will use you for gain, for whom judgment of old does not linger, and their destruction does not slumber."

We've been this route before, Nick; with all respect do you want to continue?
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What I wrote coincides with the bible 100%. You will never see in any other scripture than in Luke about a so called Abrahams bosom. This is the first and the last time you will see anything about it.

If this parable is true then the rest of what the bible says about the dead are wrong. Lets look.

"For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee . . . the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day" (Isaiah 38:18,19).

"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything . . . Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10).

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast.' (Ecclesiastes 5. 19).

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.' (Genesis 3.17-19).

'the soul that sinneth, it shall die.' (Ezekiel 18.4).

'I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness' (Psalm 17.15).

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead'. (Isaiah 26.19).

"But go thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot (or inheritance) at the end of the days'(Daniel 12.13).

That which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (ruach); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast:... all go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again'(Ecclesiastes 3.19-20).

Jesus said,
For whosoever will save his life (Greek-psuche) shall lose it; and whosoever will.lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (Greek-psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? (Matthew 16.25,26).

On the face of it, it is difficult to see how a man could bargain away his 'immortal soul', and even more difficult to see how he could lose it.

Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust'. (Psalm 104.29).

The whole of Hebrews chapter eleven has set forth the lives of heroes of faith who 'died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them and embraced them'. Not even Abraham, in which the parable claims we shall be in his bosom, is alive. David is still dead and in his grave in Acts not acending or decending for that matter.

This is the Judgement
'Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation' (John 5.28,29), or as Christ again said: Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just' (Luke 14.14).

It was the mission of Jesus at his first coming to open the way for the giving of immortality. Sin brought death, only righteousness would bring life.

Jesus in his last message unto his servants' says: 'I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore. Amen; and have the keys of hell (Greek "hades", the unseen place, the grave) and of death' (Revelation 1.18)

There are many more in which I can proceed with but you will have to first go through each of these and show me how you twist it to mean that death isnt really death. Resurrection has no meaning if you are still alive in any form or fashion after death. This leaves you with the problem of having to assign these souls to some place and thats were most people use the terms hell or heaven and then they say that they will be resurrected and Judged. If they were in hell or heaven or rest or pain then they obviously have been judged in some way and the judgement Jesus spoke of is irrelevant

Hell is the Grave
There are three main words in the Authorised Version which have been rendered "hell". In the Old Testament it is the Hebrew word sheol; in the Greek of the New Testament there are two words, hades and gehenna. The word sheol was commonly used to indicate the abode of the dead below the earth. It is better rendered by "the grave" or "the pit". In the Authorised Version sheol has been translated "grave" and "hell" on 31 occasions each, and "pit" on three occasions. Sheol is therefore the grave, the common place of the dead where men's bodies are subject to decay. The grave is the place where the dead "know not anything . . . their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished . . there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10).

"Like sheep they are laid in the grave (sheol); death shall feed on them . and their beauty shall consume in the grave (sheol)" (Psalm 49:14).

There are no exceptions: death and the grave give to men an equality they can never find in life, for:

"There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. The small and the great are there; and the servant is free from his master" (Job 3:17-19).

In the New Testament the word hades is the equivalent of the Hebrew sheol. In the Septuagint - a translation of the Old Testament into Greek, compiled approximately two hundred and fifty years before the birth of Jesus - this word is used almost without exception to represent sheol. In Peter's speech on the Day of Pentecost he quotes from Psalm 16 to prove the resurrection of Jesus and the Greek text of Acts uses the word hades:

"Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27).

This is alot of scriptural support and it is this way throughout the entirety of the bible. I can find more or we can go word by word in hebrew and greek, but I am sure you and i both know how that would end up.

In Christ,
Nick

Hi Nick and Jenna,

I would recommend that you read a well balanced book on this subject - Hell Under Fire before we go any further as it gives all sides of the debate in an unbiased fashion.

With all do respect to both of you - re-read the post on this thread as well as other places where I wrote, as well as others wrote, on this subject. We answer all your objections. I can copy and past here again if you like...

Basically your doctrine is based on human emotionalism which twists the bible text in order to give a foundation to human emotional appeals.

For God to deny life by turning this gift into a state of non-being would be contrary to God's Nature, Character, and Spirit. How do you think Satan got away with rebellion? He had this knowledge and used it for his personal selfish advantage. What does the bible say about God keeping his word, his gifts? Maybe your doctrine denies a real entity called the devil, Satan??

God spoke over Adam on the day of creation. What did God say? For the Lord to deny his own word by casting Humanity into a state of non-being would cause God to deny his word spoken proving God less than God unable to keep his word. Enter the fall of humanity and sin entering the world. Hell was prepared for the devil and his followers where the dominion of sin and eternal ruin rules punishing the practitioners of such, forever. This is far more frightening than a state of non-being where the guilty get away and off easy for his or her crimes. This would deny true Justice.

Only God is truly just and holy and none are like God. We were fashioned in who's image and likeness? Is God forever and eternal? Are you saying that God is incapable of honoring his own word spoken in Genesis chapter one and unable to keep it?

Your doctrines actually deny the words of Christ on this matter but maybe one of you (or maybe both) your doctrines deny who Jesus is: God manifest in the Flesh — second person of the Trinity, the Eternal Logos, the expression of God's Character.

Blessed be the name Jesus Christ our God and Savior forever and ever - Amen.
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B. W. wrote:Hi Nick and Jenna,

I would recommend that you read a well balanced book on this subject - Hell Under Fire before we go any further as it gives all sides of the debate in an unbiased fashion.

With all do respect to both of you - re-read the post on this thread as well as other places where I wrote, as well as others wrote, on this subject. We answer all your objections. I can copy and past here again if you like...

Basically your doctrine is based on human emotionalism which twists the bible text in order to give a foundation to human emotional appeals.

For God to deny life by turning this gift into a state of non-being would be contrary to God's Nature, Character, and Spirit. How do you think Satan got away with rebellion? He had this knowledge and used it for his personal selfish advantage. What does the bible say about God keeping his word, his gifts? Maybe your doctrine denies a real entity called the devil, Satan??

God spoke over Adam on the day of creation. What did God say? For the Lord to deny his own word by casting Humanity into a state of non-being would cause God to deny his word spoken proving God less than God unable to keep his word. Enter the fall of humanity and sin entering the world. Hell was prepared for the devil and his followers where the dominion of sin and eternal ruin rules punishing the practitioners of such, forever. This is far more frightening than a state of non-being where the guilty get away and off easy for his or her crimes. This would deny true Justice.

Only God is truly just and holy and none are like God. We were fashioned in who's image and likeness? Is God forever and eternal? Are you saying that God is incapable of honoring his own word spoken in Genesis chapter one and unable to keep it?

Your doctrines actually deny the words of Christ on this matter but maybe one of you (or maybe both) your doctrines deny who Jesus is: God manifest in the Flesh — second person of the Trinity, the Eternal Logos, the expression of God's Character.

Blessed be the name Jesus Christ our God and Savior forever and ever - Amen.
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First I already read a well balanced book on this subject called the Bible and it is were I am getting this information. I will not read a book written by some guy who claims he knows what he is talking about. I have a brain and I can do my own research.

You are right that Jesus was God manifested in the Flesh not God incarnate though. Manifested means revealed and Jesus manifested the character of God, the character that we have all fallen short of. For all have fallen short of the Glory of God. When Moses asked God to show him his glory he thought he might see some sort of extraordinary show and majesty but God replied my Glory is my graciousness, meekness, and mercy to all those that fear him.

33:18 And Moses51 said, “Show me your glory.”52

33:19 And the Lord53 said, “I will make all my goodness54 pass before your face, and I will proclaim the Lord by name55 before you; I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy.”56 33:20 But he added, “You cannot see my face, for no one can57 see me and live.”

34:6 The Lord passed by before him and proclaimed:10 “The Lord, the Lord,11 the compassionate and gracious12 God, slow to anger,13 and abounding in loyal love and faithfulness,14 34:7 keeping loyal love for thousands,15 forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression16 of fathers by dealing with children and children's children, to the third and fourth generation.”

All have fallen short of this Glory ,the glory that Jesus perfectly manifested in his life and has requested that we do the same. Notice verse 33:20 it CR's with John 1:18 and many others. No man has seen God at any time. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob 6:16 He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

Please use scripture next time

v/r
Nick

I am sorry I went off topic.

My apologies.

Nick

No Problem Nick - Have a nice day...

nickelodeon wrote:I am sorry I went off topic.

My apologies.

Nick

Now back to the topic:

B. W. wrote:Hi Nick and Jenna,

I would recommend that you read a well balanced book on this subject - Hell Under Fire before we go any further as it gives all sides of the debate in an unbiased fashion.

With all do respect to both of you - re-read the post on this thread as well as other places where I wrote, as well as others wrote, on this subject. We answer all your objections. I can copy and past here again if you like...

Basically your doctrine is based on human emotionalism which twists the bible text in order to give a foundation to human emotional appeals.

For God to deny life by turning this gift into a state of non-being would be contrary to God's Nature, Character, and Spirit. How do you think Satan got away with rebellion? He had this knowledge and used it for his personal selfish advantage. What does the bible say about God keeping his word, his gifts? Maybe your doctrine denies a real entity called the devil, Satan??

God spoke over Adam on the day of creation. What did God say? For the Lord to deny his own word by casting Humanity into a state of non-being would cause God to deny his word spoken proving God less than God unable to keep his word. Enter the fall of humanity and sin entering the world. Hell was prepared for the devil and his followers where the dominion of sin and eternal ruin rules punishing the practitioners of such, forever. This is far more frightening than a state of non-being where the guilty get away and off easy for his or her crimes. This would deny true Justice.

Only God is truly just and holy and none are like God. We were fashioned in who's image and likeness? Is God forever and eternal? Are you saying that God is incapable of honoring his own word spoken in Genesis chapter one and unable to keep it?

Your doctrines actually deny the words of Christ on this matter but maybe one of you (or maybe both) your doctrines deny who Jesus is: God manifest in the Flesh — second person of the Trinity, the Eternal Logos, the expression of God's Character.

Blessed be the name Jesus Christ our God and Savior forever and ever - Amen.
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nickelodeon wrote: First I already read a well balanced book on this subject called the Bible and it is were I am getting this information. I will not read a book written by some guy who claims he knows what he is talking about. I have a brain and I can do my own research.

You are right that Jesus was God manifested in the Flesh not God incarnate though...

Please use scripture next time

v/r Nick

Nick your doctrine comes from human authors as evidenced by what you wrote. Their influence shines through your writings. These authors are in error. It is difficult for me to believe that you never read any of these writers which support your view as much of what they say is in your writings. The bible does not teach what these individual say. What are you afraid of? I read some of their works for a balanced perspective on this matter, why cannot you? I read the bible too and it does not teach what these, or you, espouse.

So you want me to use scriptures to support who Christ Jesus is -- well then -- I'll paste what I wrote on that other thread here:

It is written:

Isaiah 48:11, "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

Isaiah 42:8, "I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols."

Isaiah 43:11-12, "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. 12 I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God."

For Jesus not to be God manifest in the flesh means he cannot and could never save without God violating his own word. Please note that all human deliverers had foibles and made mistakes, none were perfect and none were without sin. Only God is holy and without sin. God and man reconciled through Christ 'is' truer than your think. Jesus shared in our humanity thus he was 100% man as well as 100% God manifest in the flesh to be sinless, perfect, and holy. This the bible also teaches.

nickelodeon wrote: God is absolute in number. That is 1. v/r, Nick

It is written:

2 Samuel 7:22, :Therefore you are great, O LORD God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears..." ESV

Deuteronomy 33:26, "There is none like God, O Jeshurun, who rides through the heavens to your help, through the skies in his majesty..." ESV

Psalms 40:5, "...You have multiplied, O LORD my God, your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us; none can compare with you! I will proclaim and tell of them, yet they are more than can be told..." ESV

Isaiah 46:9, "...remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me..." ESV

Yes, God is one yet there is none like God. Is God of the same type of oneness as Zeus, and other false singular deities? If so, then God is not unlike all others.

In order to understand and grasp the Trinity better concerning how it articulates the oneness of God think of the Father expressed as the Nature of one God, The Son expressing the Character of one God, and the Holy Spirit expressed as the power/life of one God and you'll begin to see that there is none like the Lord.

For you to reduce God to the same level of oneness as Zeus denies the unique oneness of God. This makes me wonder if the Jewish people as well as others are breaking the commandment mentioned below:

Deuteronomy 5:8-9, “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9 Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me…” JPS

The Jewish people will one day look upon the one whom they pierced recognizing Jesus for who and what he is…

Nick, I maybe wrong but you sound like that you are instructing people to break this commandment by reducing God into an image of oneness like Zeus.

The doctrine of the Trinity preserves the unique oneness of God while at the same time proving that there is none like God! What you espouse does not.

Lastly please note that the Old Testament (OT) uses many names for God and that the OT reveals the Trinity in these names.
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Only God is Savior the Bible declares:

Isaiah 43:11-12, "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. 12 I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God."

Isaiah 42:8, "I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols."

Isaiah 45:21-23, "Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

Titus 2:13-14, "...waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. 15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Titus 3:4-6, "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior."

Isaiah 48:11, "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

Hosea 13:4, “But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.”

No other savior other than God and Jesus called savior and God will not give his glory to another - who is Christ Jesus?

There is no Rock other than God…

Isaiah 44:7-8, "Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen. 8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

1 Samuel 2:2, "There is none holy like the LORD; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God."

2 Samuel 22:32, "For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God? "

Deuteronomy 32:15, "But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked; you grew fat, stout, and sleek; then he forsook God who made him and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation. "

1 Corinthians 10:4, "...and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ."

The Rock was Christ! He is also called the Cornerstone which is also a large Rock shaped for a purpose:

Act 4:11-12, "This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Romans 9:33. "...as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Yet it is written:

Isaiah 43:11, "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.”

Who else can Jesus Be other than God?

There in none like God. That is why the Trinity makes sense as it preserves that there is none like God.

All Bible quotes note cited are from the ESV
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B. W. wrote:

nickelodeon wrote: First I already read a well balanced book on this subject called the Bible and it is were I am getting this information. I will not read a book written by some guy who claims he knows what he is talking about. I have a brain and I can do my own research.

You are right that Jesus was God manifested in the Flesh not God incarnate though...

Please use scripture next time

v/r Nick

Nick your doctrine comes from human authors as evidenced by what you wrote. Their influence shines through your writings. These authors are in error. It is difficult for me to believe that you never read any of these writers which support your view as much of what they say is in your writings. The bible does not teach what these individual say. What are you afraid of? I read some of their works for a balanced perspective on this matter, why cannot you? I read the bible too and it does not teach what these, or you, espouse.

First my entire belief comes from the Bible. Where do you suppose I am getting my beliefs if not from the bible because obviously you can see through them? My authors are the ones that God breathed inspiration into and they produced the book most of us call the Bible. You are sidestepping all that I wrote and only continued to stay off topic with me so in that i case i will continue. Everything I quoted came straight out of the Bible we must be reading different books.

So you want me to use scriptures to support who Christ Jesus is -- well then -- I'll paste what I wrote on that other thread here:

It is written:

Isaiah 48:11, "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."[/b]

Ok in the context that this scripture is talking about is Idols and God will not allow, if you would read the entire chapter, for something that man carved or fashioned with his hands to take the credit for something that God did.

Isaiah 42:8, "I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols."

This reiterates what I said above. Idols are false gods and not real meaning they have no existence. God is the only sovereign power in the entire universe there are no other powers, such as satan.

Isaiah 43:11-12, "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. 12 I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God."

This also reiterates what I just wrote above. The Israelites were giving credit that was due to the one and only God over to things made with hands. Instead of realizing that God was their saviour no matter how he may accomplish it wheter if God said everyone that looks at this cat will be saved or anything else then that is the way God would accomplish salvation. God is still the saviour even though he uses someone or thing to accomplish it.

For Jesus not to be God manifest in the flesh means he cannot and could never save without God violating his own word. Please note that all human deliverers had foibles and made mistakes, none were perfect and none were without sin. Only God is holy and without sin. God and man reconciled through Christ 'is' truer than your think. Jesus shared in our humanity thus he was 100% man as well as 100% God manifest in the flesh to be sinless, perfect, and holy. This the bible also teaches.

Where and when? God was manifest in the flesh through his representative Jesus the man. The bible is plain on this but you ignore the evidence in light of you teachings of man that you claim I am following. You follow a doctrine not taught in the bible period.

nickelodeon wrote: God is absolute in number. That is 1. v/r, Nick

It is written:

2 Samuel 7:22, :Therefore you are great, O LORD God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears..." ESV

This is true and it has nothing to due with going to hell. It also states the truth that there is no one like God not even Jesus. Even though Jesus manifested Gods character and had Gods power without measure he still took the for of a servant and thoughT equality with God could not be grasped. God had invested him with everything but he still was so humble and didnt let it get to his head.

Deuteronomy 33:26, "There is none like God, O Jeshurun, who rides through the heavens to your help, through the skies in his majesty..." ESV

Psalms 40:5, "...You have multiplied, O LORD my God, your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us; none can compare with you! I will proclaim and tell of them, yet they are more than can be told..." ESV

Isaiah 46:9, "...remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me..." ESV

All these verse state in their original context is that there is no one that can even come close to match God and he is refuting false gods.

Yes, God is one yet there is none like God. Is God of the same type of oneness as Zeus, and other false singular deities? If so, then God is not unlike all others.

So since Zeus is a false singular god then God has to be a plural true God. This is what you are begging with this question.
Although there be gods many and lords many there is only one God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has explicitly shown that he is not three but one as in the Shema. No one matches him or could even begin to try to match him.

In order to understand and grasp the Trinity better concerning how it articulates the oneness of God think of the Father expressed as the Nature of one God, The Son expressing the Character of one God, and the Holy Spirit expressed as the power/life of one God and you'll begin to see that there is none like the Lord.

God expressed his character through prophets, through burning bushes, angels, and other theophanies that people claim and Abraham knew the character of God without ever knowing Jesus. He knew that God would save a city if there were any righteous within it. God has expressed his character in many ways but he showed us his character in a human being named Jesus and showed us that if we would just turn from sin and deny ourselves of ungodliness we too could posses the character of God.

For you to reduce God to the same level of oneness as Zeus denies the unique oneness of God. This makes me wonder if the Jewish people as well as others are breaking the commandment mentioned below:

You have reduced God to a Babylonian diety of the 6th century b.c. and into a god that is sprinkled with Greek mythology. You have taken the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and cut him into 3 pieces and now serve everyone the second piece for salvation.

Deuteronomy 5:8-9, “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9 Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me…” JPS

Irrelevant to the discussion

The Jewish people will one day look upon the one whom they pierced recognizing Jesus for who and what he is…

They will see that they pierced the Messiah the human being in which God promised he would send to save them and the hier to the Davidic throne. They literaly crucified their promised King that came from the loins of David, through Solomon. We can go through the whole lineage if you would like, it is in your bible?

Nick, I maybe wrong but you sound like that you are instructing people to break this commandment by reducing God into an image of oneness like Zeus.

The doctrine of the Trinity preserves the unique oneness of God while at the same time proving that there is none like God! What you espouse does not.

The first line I will ignore for it is totaly improper. For the second line the trinity is unexplainable which is not unique but confusing to all who believe it . Most will say that we cant understand God and that the beauty of the trinity. God would be a decietful being if he gave us a bible and told us he sent his son and that he was a human, when all along it is really him. Nonsense. Plus it cannot be proven using scripture. Imagination plays a big part.

Lastly please note that the Old Testament (OT) uses many names for God and that the OT reveals the Trinity in these names.
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Only God is Savior the Bible declares:

Isaiah 43:11-12, "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. 12 I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God."

Isaiah 42:8, "I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols."

Isaiah 45:21-23, "Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

Again God is Saviour no matter what vehicle he uses to save us with. When Jesus was on earth everyone that realized who he was Glorified God not Jesus they gave him honor but the praise went to the one that they knew had given such authority and power to man. When someone heals, God is glorified if it is understood that there is only one God and he alone has the power to heal. Then you can see what all the scripture that Isaiah wrote and why God was jealous they didnt give the praise where it was due. Samething when you give Jesus the praise and glory for the plan that God wrought through him you deny God what is his. God raised up the seed from the loins of Jesse and David, God created him in the womb of mary, God raised the child as his own son, God gave him the power to heal and bless and also to forgive sin, God led him to the cross, God raised him from the dead, God sat him on his right hand, and God will send him again. Get the point.

Titus 2:13-14, "...waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. 15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Here is the same verse coming straight from Textus Receptus Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Two separate beings and one is God and one is Jesus the saviour in which God chose.

Titus 3:4-6, "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior."

Isaiah 48:11, "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

Hosea 13:4, “But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.”

No other savior other than God and Jesus called savior and God will not give his glory to another - who is Christ Jesus?

There is no Rock other than God…

Isaiah 44:7-8, "Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen. 8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

1 Samuel 2:2, "There is none holy like the LORD; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God."

2 Samuel 22:32, "For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God? "

Deuteronomy 32:15, "But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked; you grew fat, stout, and sleek; then he forsook God who made him and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation. "

1 Corinthians 10:4, "...and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ."

The Rock was Christ! He is also called the Cornerstone which is also a large Rock shaped for a purpose:

Act 4:11-12, "This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Romans 9:33. "...as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Yet it is written:

Isaiah 43:11, "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.”

Who else can Jesus Be other than God?

There in none like God. That is why the Trinity makes sense as it preserves that there is none like God.

All Bible quotes note cited are from the ESV
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This is just taking scriptures from different places in the bible where it says rock and trying making them mean the same thing or saying that they all reference each other. clearly nonsense.
So Peter was called a Rock too, in which Jesus said he would build his church, can we identify him with The God of Israel. God is our rock and he has established himself as our Rock in the OT. Just because he has used an agent to bring us salvation and called him the Rock of our salvation doesnt make him God but shows that God used him as our anchor. You can either fall upon him or he can fall on you.

B.W., you haven't answered my main question yet. Can you explain the verses that say death is the punishment for sinners? And why not a single verse in the bible says that the punishment is eternal suffering in hell?

jenna wrote:Actually, in the o.t., it was Jesus that Moses spoke to, not God. Yes, I know that Jesus is God, but God the Son is actually the God in the o.t. as well as the new.

Stephen lets you know what Moses really saw, an angel.

Acts
7:30 “After82 forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the desert83 of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush.84 7:31 When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight, and when he approached to investigate, there came the voice of the Lord, 7:32 'I am the God of your forefathers,85 the God of Abraham, Isaac,86 and Jacob.

The angel wasnt God but he represented God. The angel said he was God even though he wasnt. This is called God manifestation. This is how the Apostle was able to write God was manifeted in flesh.

God also said he will send his Angel before Israel and he shall be your God. Look it up

Hi Nick and Jenna,

First for Nick: in one of your post you wrote this: “…I have a brain and I can do my own research.”

That is good and commendable. So what does God say in the first Chapter of Genesis? Does the Bible teach that God keeps his word and promises and does not renege his gifts?

You claim to be able to do your own research, yet the plain teaching from the bible you seem to fail to see. How can God remain true to humanities first parents and offspring if he denies his word, callings, and gift spoken in Genesis chapter one by annihilation into non-being? To place into a state of non-being would prove God incapable of keeping his word, his promise, his gift; thus God would not be perfect in all his ways. Do the research Nick.

God spoke in Genesis 6 of wiping all traces of humanity off into such a state — why did he elect not to do so and save Noah and family? - If God would have wiped out humanity back then, would it not have proved that God cannot keep his word spoken in Genesis chapter one as well prove God unjust to humanities future offspring?

After the fall of humanity, God still honors his word he spoke to humanity by providing a way back to restore this in the new heavens and earth to come after making all things new again through his plan of redemption to his people that place their trust in God alone. But for those that reject God, eternal punishment, ruin, awaits in hell now and in the future in lake of fire.

The bible declares that God is light, love, peace, joy, etc, and where God is, there will these things manifested. In hell, there is the opposite — darkness, no-love, no-hope, no-joy, and no-peace, etc. This is a place where the dominion of sin rules bringing forth ruin. This is what people chose for themselves over God's pleading and warnings to return to him. God keeps his word — the dominion many people chose for themselves to live by sends them to the fires and ruin of hell which consists of darkness, in a place of no-love, no-hope, no-joy, and no-peace, etc. That is torment.

To extinguish into a state of non-being would cause God to deny his word spoken in Genesis chapter one. Is God eternal? Were we not made in the image and likeness of whom? Failure to fashion humanity into an eternal being would make God a god of the dead and not the living. Thus God would deny his own gift of life given to humanity. Does the bible teach that God denies his word and gifts?

When serpent successfully tempted humanities first parents, he said to Eve, “you will not surely die.” This means simply — you will not be made extinct. Adam and Eve both could see the rebellious serpent still lived. Why not give in — surely God would not make then extinct and non-existent. Do not believe me? Then why did not God do this in Genesis chapter 6? You see Nick, you claim to be independent in thought as well as like to do your own research but in my opinion, that is a ploy to sell your wares as legit. I wonder if you really would do any honest research on this matter? I hope so...

Next, Jenna, you want scripture that explains that punishment is eternal suffering in hell…for sins…

Mat 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown's Commentary writes correctly about this verse:

…but the righteous into life eternal — that is, “life everlasting.” The word in both clauses, being in the original the same, should have been the same in the translation also. Thus the decisions of this awful day will be final, irreversible, unending.

Mark 9:47-48, “And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown's Commentary writes correctly about this verse:
Mar 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched — See on Mat_5:30; The “unquenchablesness” of this fire has already been brought before us (see on Mat_3:12); and the awfully vivid idea of an undying worm, everlastingly consuming an unconsumable body, is taken from the closing words of the evangelical prophet (Isa_66:24), which seem to have furnished the later Jewish Church with its current phraseology on the subject of future punishment (see Lightfoot).

Jesus speaks on Hell in 46 verses Jenna and Nick. Bible does teaches that there is life immediately after death.

Ezekiel 32:21-27 in this verse how can the dead speak if they are asleep or non-exist?

Jonah 2:2 how could he cry out if he non-existed?

Matthew 17:3 Moses and Elijah appeared — how could they have spoken if they were annihilated or were fast asleep?

Luke 16:22-30 — Abraham spoke to the rich man in hell. This does not sound like they were annihilated does it? Why would Jesus use a parable not based on solid truth and facts? - To do other wise for any other reason would have made Jesus sin.

Luke 23:43 — Jesus said what the thief on the cross? This also backs up Luke 16:22-31 as true. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19) and lead captivity captive (Eph 4:8). Jesus did not go to these places asleep in soul sleep or in an annihilated state. Please note that this thief went to Paradise with Jesus very much alive and not to sheol, hell, the pit.

Acts 7:59 - what did Stephen say? He did not cry out — 'oh gave receive me' but rather cried out: “Jesus receive my spirit!”

Philippians 1:23 - Paul said it would be better to depart to be with the Lord. If this happened Paul expected to be with Christ and not soul-sleeping not annihilated but rather existing on after death residing with Jesus.

Job 26 speaks of the shades trembling in sheol. How could they be if they were annihilated? Read Job 26:4-6, “With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person — exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking].” JPS

Numbers 16:29-33 speaks of Korah going down alive into hell.

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS — pretty plain language used here of both death and going alive into the nether world…

Revelations 5:5 John speaks to an elder in heaven — this elder existed then and was not soul-sleeping nor was he annihilated.

In fact Annihilationism has it roots firmly entrenched in the philosophy of Atomist / materialist traditions like Epicurus. For example, Wikipedia stated that, “Epicurus…believed that death was not to be feared. When a man dies, he does not feel the pain of death because he no longer is and he therefore feels nothing. Therefore, as Epicurus famously said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.”

Annihilationism's doctrine contorts scripture to redefine word meanings to bolster doctrine derived by men as the historical record proves.

When the followers of Korah went down alive into Hell, they went down alive. Jesus said that there was a certain rich man that died and went to hell, alive. When God causes mortal life to cease, it is for judgment. God knows these individuals have reached the point where they will never repent and are totally corrupt. This was found in them, not placed within by God. He knows all. He is just. They are sent to wait the final verdict in the depths of hell, alive.

He consigns such to the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, forever. Thus God is not a murderer as life continues after the mortal ceases. God can slay the mortal wicked justly without violation of life he gave and his word given in Genesis Chapter One. So in a sense when God slays the mortal wicked — these go into judgment. Before this time, God pleads and warns and exhorts people everywhere to repent through the message of the cross. He offers a way of escape as Jesus paid the penalty for the sin of us all. This is the way of God - as he is merciful and full of grace and truth.

The proof text scriptures that annihilationist use are contrary to Jesus' teaching on hell as well as the bible in both the Old and New Testament by distorting word meanings in the text to support ancient Greek philosophic atomist thought.

And lastly regarding your questions Jenna:

Mat 5:30, "...And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell." ESV

2 Th 1:9, " They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might ." ESV

Revelations 20:13-15, “And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” ESV

Revelations 22:15, "...Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." ESV
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